The No-No Thread

[BigPapiEnFuego]

And' date=' don't forget, if the call was correct and it was a perfect game against the Guardians, we all could totally rip on Suns for a long time.[/quote']

 

Goddamn, even we got robbed. This needs to get reversed.

[ryan44]

You can protest error/hit calls and they often don't change the outcome of the game.

Did the Tigers officially inform the umpires of a protest before the next pitch was thrown? If not then none of this interpretation stuff matters in the least.

[suns]

It's interesting that Talksox members feel strongly about this. Who really cares about the Guardians or Tigers?

 

 

Me

[suns]

Joyce said after the game

I just cost that kid a perfect game," Joyce said. "I thought he beat the throw. I was convinced he beat the throw, until I saw the replay."

"It was the biggest call of my career," said Joyce, who became a full-time major league umpire in 1989.

[ryan44]

And' date=' don't forget, if the call was correct and it was a perfect game against the Guardians, we all could totally rip on Suns for a long time.[/quote']

Do people really need more ammunition to rip on/laugh at Cleveland fans? I would think not.

[a700hitter]

Joyce said after the game

I just cost that kid a perfect game," Joyce said. "I thought he beat the throw. I was convinced he beat the throw, until I saw the replay."

"It was the biggest call of my career," said Joyce, who became a full-time major league umpire in 1989.

A statement like this might force MLB's hand to reverse the call. The moment has been ruined for the kid, but at least he will be in the record books forever.

[Northern Star]

A statement like this might force MLB's hand to reverse the call. The moment has been ruined for the kid' date=' but at least he will be in the record books forever.[/quote']

 

Selig should step in and reverse it "for the good of the game" - but he probably won't, maybe he doesn't even have the power to. What comes from this is replay for out calls. Maybe the challenge system like football. I don't care how long it slows down the game, get it right on huge calls like this.

[italstallianion]

Did the Tigers officially inform the umpires of a protest before the next pitch was thrown? If not then none of this interpretation stuff matters in the least.

 

 

 

I meant that calls can be protested/changed after the game. I haven't seen it done with a no-hitter/perfect game, but I've seen it done all the time with hits vs. errors and that's much more subjective than safe vs. out.

[yeszir]

I meant that calls can be protested/changed after the game. I haven't seen it done with a no-hitter/perfect game' date=' but I've seen it done all the time with hits vs. errors and that's much more subjective than safe vs. out.[/quote']

 

This is way more than a hit vs an error though

[ryan44]

A statement like this might force MLB's hand to reverse the call. The moment has been ruined for the kid' date=' but at least he will be in the record books forever.[/quote']

I disagree about MLB going back and reversing the call. If you want to change the rules to prevent stuff like this from happening again then so be it, but you don't make a single random exception. If they did that, where do they draw the line? When someone loses a perfect game on the last out? How about a no-hitter or a simple complete game? What about a play at first base in game 1 of the ALCS?

[a700hitter]

Selig should step in and reverse it "for the good of the game" - but he probably won't' date=' maybe he doesn't even have the power to. What comes from this is replay for out calls. Maybe the challenge system like football. I don't care how long it slows down the game, get it right on huge calls like this.[/quote']I agree that he wouldn't step in and reverse the call if the ump stood by his call. The Commissioner would never step in an reverse a judgment call and embarrass his umps. This ump realizes that he blew the call. If he could do it over, he'd change his call. He must feel awful. I wouldn't be too surprised if the call gets reversed.

[ryan44]

I meant that calls can be protested/changed after the game. I haven't seen it done with a no-hitter/perfect game' date=' but I've seen it done all the time with hits vs. errors and that's much more subjective than safe vs. out.[/quote']

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/04_starting_ending_game.pdf

Rule 4.19 Comment: Whenever a manager protests a game because of alleged misapplication of the rules the protest will not be recognized unless the umpires are notified at the time the play under protest occurs and before the next pitch, play or attempted play. A protest arising on a game-ending play may be filed until 12 noon the following day with the league office.

[suns]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/04_starting_ending_game.pdf

Rule 4.19 Comment: Whenever a manager protests a game because of alleged misapplication of the rules the protest will not be recognized unless the umpires are notified at the time the play under protest occurs and before the next pitch, play or attempted play. A protest arising on a game-ending play may be filed until 12 noon the following day with the league office.

 

You don't know what Jim Leyland said to that ump.

[italstallianion]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/04_starting_ending_game.pdf

Rule 4.19 Comment: Whenever a manager protests a game because of alleged misapplication of the rules the protest will not be recognized unless the umpires are notified at the time the play under protest occurs and before the next pitch, play or attempted play. A protest arising on a game-ending play may be filed until 12 noon the following day with the league office.

 

 

Again, I'm talking about protesting a play, not protesting a game. This doesn't apply.

[a700hitter]

I disagree about MLB going back and reversing the call. If you want to change the rules to prevent stuff like this from happening again then so be it' date=' but you don't make a single random exception. If they did that, where do they draw the line? When someone loses a perfect game on the last out? How about a no-hitter or a simple complete game? What about a play at first base in game 1 of the ALCS?[/quote']The George Brett Pine Tar HR was the right call by the ump, but it caused such an uproar and the Yankees stupidly bragged how they had spotted the illegal bat at the beginning of the series but didn't say anything until Brett hit the HR. The equity argument shifted to Brett even though the call was technically correct.

[TedWilliams101]

I think they need to reverse it seeing as the Umpire that made they call is acknowledging that he made the WRONG call. How can they not? If I were Joyce I'd be pleading Bud to change the ruling. If it doesn't get changed, Joyce is going to be known as the "guy who ruined a perfect game" for the rest of his life. Ouch.

 

As for instant replay, I think it's a joke that it isn't available. I honestly see no reason why they can't install 2 TV screens into the wall along the 1st/3rd base lines. An umpire unsure of a call just needs to turn and walk a couple feet and get it right.

 

It's almost worse in the NBA where a ref can blow a call and then see it right up on the jumbo-tron 10 seconds later. Everyone in the arena knows it was the wrong call, yet the ref never changes the ruling. It's ridiculous.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Just got home and watched the video. Absolutely unbelieveable. And Joyce works the plate tomorrow.

[ryan44]

Again' date=' I'm talking about protesting a play, not protesting a game. This doesn't apply.[/quote']

Blah, wrong section of the rules. Nice catch.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/09_the_umpire.pdf

9.02

(a) Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to,

whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a

runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to

any such judgment decisions.

 

Rule 9.02(a) Comment: Players leaving their position in the field or on base, or managers or

coaches leaving the bench or coaches box, to argue on BALLS AND STRIKES will not be permitted.

They should be warned if they start for the plate to protest the call. If they continue, they will be ejected

from the game.

 

( If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire’s decision may be in conflict with the

rules, the manager may appeal the decision and ask that a correct ruling be made.

Such appeal shall be made only to the umpire who made the protested decision.

 

© If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire

for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to

reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the

umpire making it.

 

Take from that what you will, I've given up trying to determine who the hell can actually review the call/overturn it/protest it/how long they have to protest the call.

[ryan44]

Just got home and watched the video. Absolutely unbelieveable. And Joyce works the plate tomorrow.

MLB should get him the hell out of Detroit for his own safety.

[Northern Star]

I think they need to reverse it seeing as the Umpire that made they call is acknowledging that he made the WRONG call. How can they not? If I were Joyce I'd be pleading Bud to change the ruling. If it doesn't get changed' date=' Joyce is going to be known as the "guy who ruined a perfect game" for the rest of his life. Ouch.[/quote']

 

This is just too freaking huge to not reverse it. We're talking about A FREAKING PERFECT GAME. The injustice is ridiculous.

 

Selig needs to announce he has super powers to intervene. Then watch the umpires union be douches and file a grievance.

 

If Selig can decide that a World Series game won't end in less than 9 innings, I think he can intervene on this.

[a700hitter]

I think they need to reverse it seeing as the Umpire that made they call is acknowledging that he made the WRONG call. How can they not? If I were Joyce I'd be pleading Bud to change the ruling. If it doesn't get changed, Joyce is going to be known as the "guy who ruined a perfect game" for the rest of his life. Ouch.

 

As for instant replay, I think it's a joke that it isn't available. I honestly see no reason why they can't install 2 TV screens into the wall along the 1st/3rd base lines. An umpire unsure of a call just needs to turn and walk a couple feet and get it right.

 

It's almost worse in the NBA where a ref can blow a call and then see it right up on the jumbo-tron 10 seconds later. Everyone in the arena knows it was the wrong call, yet the ref never changes the ruling. It's ridiculous.

I think the fact that Gallaraga acted so professionally about the situation will weigh heavily in his favor.

[Youk Of The Nation]

He really feels bad," Galarraga said. "He probably feels more bad than me. Nobody is perfect. I give a lot of credit to that guy. That (an apology) doesn't happen. He apologized. He feels really bad. Nobody is perfect. What am I gonna do? His body language said more than a lot of words. His eyes were watery, he didn't have too say much. His body language said a lot."

 

From MLB.com

[msubulldogs21]

Dude' date=' he's part of the show, man. Didn't you know? Everyone is there to see the umps go into histrionics when they make calls.[/quote']

 

I agree about your general point that wayyy too many umpires try to insert themselves into the game and be noticed (the Joe West type), but tonight I simply think Jim Joyce flat out missed the call. It was a very, very bad call, but I don't think this was a case of him trying to steal the show or anything. I feel terrible for Galarraga losing a perfect game like this, but I also feel for Joyce in that he has to live with this blown call for the rest of his life.

[BoSox21]

The irony is that Galarraga will get more notoriety now than if he had actually gone into the record books as having pitched the 21st perfect game in MLB history.

[yeszir]

Reason #17 why I would never want to be a major league umpire.

[a700hitter]

The irony is that Galarraga will get more notoriety now than if he had actually gone into the record books as having pitched the 21st perfect game in MLB history.

No he will not. Have you ever heard of Milt Pappas? He got jobbed out of a perfect game by an umpire with two outs in the 9th inning. Here's his story from an interview:

 

BA: On September 2, 1964 you nearly pitched a no-hitter, taking it into the eighth inning against Minnesota. Eight years later to the day, September 2, 1972 you pitched one of the greatest games in history. What happened in the ninth inning?

 

Pappas: I was pitching for the Cubs at Wrigley Field against the San Diego Padres. I retired the first 26 batters in the game and I needed one more for a perfect game. There had only been seven perfect games [in the 20th century] up to that time.

 

Larry Stahl was sent up to pinch-hit and I got two strikes on him immediately. Randy Hundley [the Cubs' catcher] called for a slider. Ball one. Slider. Ball two. Slider. Ball three. Slider. Ball four. Stahl walks and the perfect game is gone.

 

BA: Were any of the last four pitches strikes?

 

Pappas: Any one of the four could've been called a strike and the last two were definitely strikes. [umpire Bruce] Froemming came out to the mound after Stahl walked and I called him every name that I knew in the English language. When I ran out of names in English I started calling him names in Greek.

 

BA: Weren't you afraid of getting kicked out of the game?

 

Pappas: There's no way in hell that he was going to kick me out of the game. Not that game. Not if he wanted to get out of Wrigley Field alive. Everybody was too mad at him. The players, the fans -- everyone. So I went back to pitching and got the final out on a pop-up to second base to preserve the no-hitter.

 

BA: Then what happened?

 

Pappas: Believe it or not, the next day Froemming comes over to me and asks me to autograph a baseball for him. So I autographed it for him and then made a suggestion as where he might want to put it. He was incredulous. "You're not still angry at me, are you?" he asked.

 

"You have no idea what you did," I told him. "You blew it! You had a chance to call one of the few perfect games in the history of baseball and you blew it."

 

"Show me an umpire who ever called a game without making a mistake," he answered.

 

I couldn't believe he said that! He missed the point.

 

Then I ran into Larry Stahl. Stahl said that he wanted me to get the perfect game so after he got two strikes on him he decided not to swing anymore. "Why didn't you say something?! Why didn't you back out of the box and give me a wink or something?!" I asked him. I would've been happy to give him a fastball down the middle if I knew that he wasn't going to swing at it.

 

BA: Why do I feel that there's even more to this story?

 

Pappas: There is more to the story. I have the ninth inning of that game on tape. It's the only part that WGN recorded for some reason. I had some friends over the other night and they wanted to see the ninth inning. So I played it and I watched Froemming after I had my cussing match with him at the mound after Stahl walked. As he was walking back to the plate he had this big snicker on his face. His face said, "Ha, ha, got ya!"

[BoSox21]

No he will not. Have you ever heard of Milt Pappas? He got jobbed out of a perfect game by an umpire with two outs in the 9th inning. Here's his story from an interview:

 

The reason I say Galarraga will get more notoriety than if he had actually gotten credit for the perfect game is because I feel this story will get more mainstream media attention than a regular perfect game. I can totally see Galarraga going on the Today Show with Matt Lauer asking him what went through his mind when Donald was called safe, what Joyce said to him after the game, etc. I never expected to see Buerhle, Halladay or Braden making the interview rounds.

[a700hitter]

The reason I say Galarraga will get more notoriety than if he had actually gotten credit for the perfect game is because I feel this story will get more mainstream media attention than a regular perfect game. I can totally see Galarraga going on the Today Show with Matt Lauer asking him what went through his mind when Donald was called safe' date=' what Joyce said to him after the game, etc. I never expected to see Buerhle, Halladay or Braden making the interview rounds.[/quote']...and once the 15 minute human interest story fades, so will he like Milt Pappas. Ten years from now people will not remember that he should have had a perfect game. His name will not be in the record books. No-hitters is a very long list. Perfect games... well that's a different story. I may not be able to name from memory every pitcher that pitched a perfect game in my lifetime, but if you gave me a big list of pitchers with their names mixed in, I am pretty sure I could pick out all the guys who pitched perfect games.

[italstallianion]

To be honest, I think this is an easier situation to reverse than most. For example, does anybody remember the CC Sabathia game against the Pirates a few years ago? There was a questionable call in the middle of the game as to whether or not Andy LaRoche got a base hit or reached on a Sabathia error. While I think that the play was clearly an error, it was ruled a base hit and that was the only hit of the game for the Pirates. Without that hit, Sabathia would have had a no-hitter. The Brewers got it reviewed, but not reversed.

 

Unlike that situation, the evidence is clear that the batter is out. Even more important, this was the very last out. So if the call was correct, then you can guarantee a perfect game, whereas in Sabathia's case, who knows how the rest of the game would have panned out if the call was an error. In this case, Galarraga pitched with the same pressure of a perfect game, and if the call was made correctly, then the game is over and it's a perfect game. It seems like it could actually be a perfect game. I won't get my hopes up that Selig would do the right thing, but it's now or never here.

[a700hitter]

To be honest, I think this is an easier situation to reverse than most. For example, does anybody remember the CC Sabathia game against the Pirates a few years ago? There was a questionable call in the middle of the game as to whether or not Andy LaRoche got a base hit or reached on a Sabathia error. While I think that the play was clearly an error, it was ruled a base hit and that was the only hit of the game for the Pirates. Without that hit, Sabathia would have had a no-hitter. The Brewers got it reviewed, but not reversed.

 

Unlike that situation, the evidence is clear that the batter is out. Even more important, this was the very last out. So if the call was correct, then you can guarantee a perfect game, whereas in Sabathia's case, who knows how the rest of the game would have panned out if the call was an error. In this case, Galarraga pitched with the same pressure of a perfect game, and if the call was made correctly, then the game is over and it's a perfect game. It seems like it could actually be a perfect game. I won't get my hopes up that Selig would do the right thing, but it's now or never here.

I really wouldn't be surprised if it got reversed. The equity of the situation is all on the side of reversing it. The umpire admits that he blew it, so a reversal will not ruffle the feathers of the umpire union. The pitcher behave impeccably professional throughout the entire situation, both on and off the field. I think the Commissioner's Office will be looking for grounds to reverse this.