He's no Joe Torre.......Or is he?

[GhostofMalzone]

For some on this site Terry Francona seems to be the poster-

child for all the things that are or ever will be wrong with the Sox.

He won us a World Series in his first season as skipper....Big Deal.

Let's face it...... He's no Joe Torre.......Or is he?

 

Tito's been managing in the majors for 6 years in his fifth year he came

to the Sox and won a World Series.(First year with the club)

Joe Torre managed 14 years in the majors and on his fifteenth

year he came to the Yankees and won a World Series.(First year with the club)

 

In Tito's second year The Red Sox finished 95-67 2nd in the division.

In Torre's second year with The Yankees (97) they finished 96-66 2nd

in the division.

 

Tito was 38 and Torre was 37 years old when they became

major league managers.

 

Both had close family in major league baseball.

John (Tito) Francona 17 seasons, Terry's Dad.

Frank Torre 7 seasons, Joe's Brother.

 

Both were considered " Managers with Losing Records " before they

came to their respective clubs. Torre in 95, Tito in 04.

 

In their first six seasons as major league managers.

Torre first year in 1977 he was a player/manager for a 117 games.

In 1981 they only played 105 games in a split season, From 77 to 81

he managed 709 games with the Mets. In 82 he went to Atlanta and

managed 162 games that would have given him 871 games. So I gave

him the 83 season of 162 games to make up for the 77 and 81 seasons

that gave him 1043 games 71 games more then Tito's 972. I tried to get

the number of games close to show the wins/losses in the first 6 years of

both managerial careers. (To be fair I subtracted *71 games from the 567

losses for Torre, That gave him the same amount of games as Tito for

that 6 year span)

Torre was 476-*496 in *972 games and no Championship.

Francona was 478-494 in 972 games with a World Series

Championship.

That's close in anyones book..Red Sox or Yankee fans.

 

Torre's had 2540 more games (18 more years) then Tito to learn from his

mistakes, 20320 innings......that's a lot of baseball.

I read the comparisons all the time between the two, and you just can't compare

them. You can only compare the first 6 years. If Red Sox or Yankee fans want

to compear Torre to any other active managers it would have to be, Bobby Cox

24 years 3698 games or Tony La Russa 28 years 4125 games.

 

Give Tito another 2540 games and he could become another Joe Torre.....It could

happen.

[yankeessuck013]

Tony La Russa > Bobby Cox > Joe Torre > Everybody Else

[jsinger121]

cox is better than La Russa.....no one has had more talented teams than La Russa and only won 1 title. his A's teams should have never lost to the Dodgers or Cincy.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

La Russa: http://www.sportsblah.com/2005_12_01_archive.html

 

Go down to "Dodgers are Dumb, La Russa still creepy"

 

Hilarious.

[RedSoxRooter]

Tony La Russa is an ass goblin.

[yankeessuck013]

Throughout his career he has taken a team with good talent but one that is missing some parts and won with it.

 

He's an incredibly intelligent manager, and always gets them most out of his players And can get people to play above their potential.

 

Bobby Cox and him are extremely close.

 

Cox is a model of consistency. This year he has done his best job bringing along good young talent as he has always done these last 14 years. I admire his managerial success over the years without as much talent as the Yankees.

 

But seriously, the Braves have become so pathetic in the post-season.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

I don't know why you are even comparing them yet. 2540 games is a long time. Francona could also be fired after this year and become the next Grady Little.

[yankeessuck013]

become the next Grady.

 

how could he become the next grady?

 

Tito led us to a world series title.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

Yeah and Joe Torre's past 9 Yankee teams have reached the post season every year, have an 8 in a row division champ string going, and have gotten 4 world series titles. I just don't think they are comparable yet.

 

And I guess I shouldn't have used Little, but the idea behind it was that yes, Francona may very well be another Joe Torre, but he has a long way to go. Thats like saying Wang might be as premier a pitcher as the Rocket. It's possible but it's wishful thinking.

[yankeessuck013]

cox is better than La Russa.....no one has had more talented teams than La Russa and only won 1 title. his A's teams should have never lost to the Dodgers or Cincy.

 

Ok, let's get real. Bobby Cox has seen his day. We talk about 14 straight division titles, wow. That's great, no one has ever done that before, cool. Let's win the big game, but I don't think the Braves can do it with Bobby Cox. He has had great players and as soon as they are traded their game picks up. That tells me Bobby has a problem with talent and most likely in the areas of how to use it.

[jsinger121]

cox and torre are the best managers in the game.....any manager that can take that many rookies and lead them to another division title is a great manager. so what if he has won only 1 world series. there was only 1 time in the world series where his team lost where they were probably favored and that was in 1996 to the yankees. they were not favored against the twins, blue jays, or yankees in 1999. what he has done in atlanta is incredible and in my book is better than LaRussa will ever be. i always believed that LaRussa was very overrated as a manager as he micromanages a game at times.

[26 to 6]

For some on this site Terry Francona seems to be the poster-

child for all the things that are or ever will be wrong with the Sox.

He won us a World Series in his first season as skipper....Big Deal.

Let's face it...... He's no Joe Torre.......Or is he?

 

Tito's been managing in the majors for 6 years in his fifth year he came

to the Sox and won a World Series.(First year with the club)

Joe Torre managed 14 years in the majors and on his fifteenth

year he came to the Yankees and won a World Series.(First year with the club)

 

In Tito's second year The Red Sox finished 95-67 2nd in the division.

In Torre's second year with The Yankees (97) they finished 96-66 2nd

in the division.

 

Tito was 38 and Torre was 37 years old when they became

major league managers.

 

Both had close family in major league baseball.

John (Tito) Francona 17 seasons, Terry's Dad.

Frank Torre 7 seasons, Joe's Brother.

 

Both were considered " Managers with Losing Records " before they

came to their respective clubs. Torre in 95, Tito in 04.

 

In their first six seasons as major league managers.

Torre first year in 1977 he was a player/manager for a 117 games.

In 1981 they only played 105 games in a split season, From 77 to 81

he managed 709 games with the Mets. In 82 he went to Atlanta and

managed 162 games that would have given him 871 games. So I gave

him the 83 season of 162 games to make up for the 77 and 81 seasons

that gave him 1043 games 71 games more then Tito's 972. I tried to get

the number of games close to show the wins/losses in the first 6 years of

both managerial careers. (To be fair I subtracted *71 games from the 567

losses for Torre, That gave him the same amount of games as Tito for

that 6 year span)

Torre was 476-*496 in *972 games and no Championship.

Francona was 478-494 in 972 games with a World Series

Championship.

That's close in anyones book..Red Sox or Yankee fans.

 

Torre's had 2540 more games (18 more years) then Tito to learn from his

mistakes, 20320 innings......that's a lot of baseball.

I read the comparisons all the time between the two, and you just can't compare

them. You can only compare the first 6 years. If Red Sox or Yankee fans want

to compear Torre to any other active managers it would have to be, Bobby Cox

24 years 3698 games or Tony La Russa 28 years 4125 games.

 

Give Tito another 2540 games and he could become another Joe Torre.....It could

happen.

That is a very good post, excellent in fact. Good stuff there.

 

Both were considered " Managers with Losing Records " before they

came to their respective clubs. Torre in 95, Tito in 04.

Torre in 96

He was fired from St. Louis in '95, then came to the Yanks before the 96 season. Just a mistake, im sure.

 

Tony La Russa > Bobby Cox > Joe Torre > Everybody Else

Fair.

I think La Russa is a little overrated, but thats still a very fair statement.

 

Yeah and Joe Torre's past 9 Yankee teams have reached the post season every year, have an 8 in a row division champ string going, and have gotten 4 world series titles. I just don't think they are comparable yet.

 

And I guess I shouldn't have used Little, but the idea behind it was that yes, Francona may very well be another Joe Torre, but he has a long way to go. Thats like saying Wang might be as premier a pitcher as the Rocket. It's possible but it's wishful thinking.

Right. They have had similar careers to a certain point in their careers (1st title), however Tito still has a long way to go.

 

There is no question that this thread has opened up my eyes (and my mind) to Terry Francona.

[26 to 6]

La Russa: http://www.sportsblah.com/2005_12_01_archive.html

 

Go down to "Dodgers are Dumb, La Russa still creepy"

 

Hilarious.

Page is hilarious. Especially the one discussing Soriano and Texas.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Page is hilarious. Especially the one discussing Soriano and Texas.

 

Haha yeah, was that the first time you've read that site?

 

And yes, I understand, watching him field is like watching a 9 year-old trying to catch a watermelon with a mousepad.

 

[26 to 6]

Haha yeah, was that the first time you've read that site?

 

 

 

yea

[KeepTheFaith1229]

yea

 

That's just the January archives too, so there's more.

 

Kind of weird...of the 2 guys who write the site one is a Sox fan and the other a Yanks fan.

[GhostofMalzone]

That is a very good post, excellent in fact. Good stuff there.

 

 

Torre in 96

He was fired from St. Louis in '95, then came to the Yanks before the 96 season. Just a mistake, im sure.

 

 

 

 

There is no question that this thread has opened up my eyes (and my mind) to Terry Francona.

 

 

Thank you for the complement 26 to 6.

 

Torre was hired by The Yankee's on November 2, 1995

The way I look at it, When he put pen to paper he was a

Yankee.

[GhostofMalzone]

I don't know why you are even comparing them yet. 2540 games is a long time. Francona could also be fired after this year and become the next Grady Little.

 

I'm not sure who you were answering here?

But, That's my point, You can't compare Torre to Tito.

I read posts trying to do it all the time.

I think Tito will be around for quite some time. He won us

a World Series and with the right moves by the front office

and if the kids on the farm turn out to be all their cracked up

to be? Then we should be a bonfire contender.

 

But, On the other hand, If guys like Beckett, Lowell, Tavarez,

Loretta, Gonzales don't turn out like the brain trust thinks they will?

If Schilling and Foulke aren't healthy? If Timlin don't turn out like

Embree did last year? If Clement's second half can be as good as his

first half? If Wakefield's got another season left in him? If they can't trade

Wells? If Papelbon don't live up to the hype? If Manny's still with us?

A lot of unanswered questions still surrounding this team.

And if this season starts going south? Yeah..I can see them making Tito the

scapegoat. Even if he didn't have any control over what was going wrong.

I don't trust this Front office even with Theo back. Not after the Damon fiasco

"We heard about it on the radio" What ******** that was.

[26 to 6]

Thank you for the complement 26 to 6.

 

Torre was hired by The Yankee's on November 2, 1995

The way I look at it, When he put pen to paper he was a

Yankee.

ok, good point.

[ksushi]

the kid who made that sportsblah site has terrible terrible grammar and punctuation problems. Sorry, just chiming in with nothing.

[Plumpamania]

I'm sorry, but Joe Torre is a great clubhouse manager, but when it comes to on the field managing I think he's horrid. Especially lately.

 

Cox>Showalter>La Russa>Everyone Else.

 

 

Remember it was Buck who brought the Yankees to where they were. Torre just took over when the pickings were right.

[stocker323]

I'm sorry, but Joe Torre is a great clubhouse manager, but when it comes to on the field managing I think he's horrid. Especially lately.

 

Cox>Showalter>La Russa>Everyone Else.

 

 

Remember it was Buck who brought the Yankees to where they were. Torre just took over when the pickings were right.

 

I don't know how you can put Showalter in that class if he hasn't even won a World Series. Sure he's been fired twice before a team has won the Series but him personally has not won it yet. He also has kind of underacheived with that team in Texas. Granted they don't have the best pitching staff but I think if he was that good of a manager he could have finished better than they have the last couple of years.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I'm sorry, but Joe Torre is a great clubhouse manager, but when it comes to on the field managing I think he's horrid. Especially lately.

 

Cox>Showalter>La Russa>Everyone Else.

 

 

Remember it was Buck who brought the Yankees to where they were. Torre just took over when the pickings were right.

Its intresting that you throw Showwalter in there because Showwalter might be the exact opposite of Torre. Great on the field but horrible in the clubhouse. There is a reason why hes never around to win with the team he helps build. He wears out his welcome. I'm the rare Yankee fan that agrees with you on Torre. Last year I could go chapter and verus on how bad he was at times last season. He would remove SP too soon and put the game in the hands of relivers like Wayne Franklin. It drove me nuts. BUT with that said I think Torre's in clubhouse management with the Yankees in particular is huge. With all of those all-stars in the clubhouse I think you need a guy like Torre and not a guy like Showalter who is a task master. Styles fit certain ball clubs, Torre fits with the Yankees.

[26 to 6]

I agree that Buck is a great manager, and horribly underrated. But I dont think he's better than Torre. IDK, just watching this guy on a daily basis for going on 10 years there really isnt anyone I would prefer the Yankees have.

[Plumpamania]

I think that has more to do with the players the Yankees have assembled more than the manager...

[GhostofMalzone]

Try this on.... Torre as manager of The Red Sox and Francona as manager of The Yankee's. how would both teams end the 06 season?

[mosox]

Torre seems to always be one step ahead of the opposing manager and he's a master at handling players and his insane boss. I hate being against him in close games.

[kreinbihl34]

"Try this on.... Torre as manager of The Red Sox and Francona as manager of The Yankee's. how would both teams end the 06 season?"

 

maybe manny would be happy then

[He Hate Me]

I'm sorry, but Joe Torre is a great clubhouse manager, but when it comes to on the field managing I think he's horrid. Especially lately.

 

Cox>Showalter>La Russa>Everyone Else.

 

 

Remember it was Buck who brought the Yankees to where they were. Torre just took over when the pickings were right.

 

Torre is a good field manager as long as he has someone to counter his natural lack of aggression. Without Zim's aggressiveness as the bench coach, Torre has gotten staid wit the offense and isn't attacking as often as he hsould be. Case in point, Game 6. If Zim was on the bench with Torre, I can guarantee we woulda seen at least 3 bunts in the first 3 innings just to test that ankle.

[He Hate Me]

I think that has more to do with the players the Yankees have assembled more than the manager...

 

The team essentially quit on Showalter. How can you say Torre doesn't get the credit for getting the team to play together for a championship the year after they revolted against Showalter?

 

My guess is you're trying to say Torre is the MLB equivalent of Phil Jackson, which might be true enough. However, how many championships did Jordan win before Phil Jackson? How many championships did Shaq and Kobe win before Phil Jackson? Yes it has to do with the players (doesn't every team in sports????), but the manager who gets them to reach their potential is doing exactly what his job is, putting players in a position to succeed based on their strengths