New Manny Rumor...

[ksushi]

The sox philosophy has been for the past three years, build for the future. Considering the future is about two years away from arrival, why bail now? Doing that would be terrible. Lester Marte and Shoppach is the kind of deal you would propose? I'm happy cooler heads are in charge, not a knock on you at all. Thats a rational way to go about it if you are say... The Braves. Or the Dodgers. It makes perfect sense, but the position the Red Sox are in, as a large market team in a league approaching many draft restrictions to come in the next couple years, will be shut out of young talent, except via selling the roster. Therefore, its imperative to hang on to the young guns we have in the system right now. I don't know about you, but most of the red sox fans don't have a win now mentality, they have a keep winning mentality. A oft re-tooling youth strategy is ideal for a team like this, and its getting under way just in time for the draft restrictions.

 

I dont know all the details, but something like the top ten teams will get the bottom 10 picks of the 1st round only, in order from worst to best and only one pick each. That shuts a lot of teams out of young talent and really helps out the smaller market teams. I think that is great. However, I think its great for the league and not the Red Sox. The Sox have to handle this and right now they are in the perfect position to do that with the youth they have available to them right now. Dealing that away would compromise all of that and win now lose later could become something we are staring right in the face. Big market teams aren't crippled by it or anything, it just further curtails any one team from monopolizing all the talent in the league. A few good drafts and a hefty payroll could set a team up for a decade or more if they did it right. Under the current system it would only be a matter of time before that happened. The Angels are close. The sox could have gotten close. Its easier said than done, but I'm glad that stuff is happening.

 

I can't find any specific details online, just whispers of these changes here and there on ESPN etc. and other message boards. People bring it up at sosh from time to time.

 

If anyone could find the specific changes that would be dope ill, homie.

 

ksushi, out.

 

alright I'll never end a post like that again I'm sorry I subjected all you guys to that.

[Damonwillfryforthis]

Now that Manny says he wants to stay in Boston, does the FO continue to make a move for Tejada using prospects? I think it would be a great move if the Sox could get Miggy by offering Clement and three prospects-- two blue-chippers and a lower level prospect. Just because Manny wants to stay doesn't mean that Miggy doesn't want to leave. It would be great to get Miggy and keep Manny. What a 3,4,5 batting order that would be-- a modern murderers row.

The thought of a 3,4,5 lineup like that does sound soooo good but not good enough to give away any blue chip prospects to accomplish it. We have a solid future ahead of us with Lester, Paps and Marte, those 3 are untouchable. If Baltimore wants to deal Tejada for something other than those guys along with Clement, then obviously you have to jump.

[a700hitter]

That would be a fearsome heart of the order; however, I think moving blue-chippers for Tejada puts the team in a win now mode. I don't know if the pitching staff is strong enough to do that. If Schilling and Foulke aren't able to bounce back, then they have mortgaged the future in vain, which is something I don't see them doing. As it stands right now, they are a CF and RH 4th OF away from having a contender if Schilling and Foulke can return to form.

Offensively, if they had Papi, Manny and Miggy, they could get an all field, no hit CF. They should be able to pick up a versatile 4th OF. I think the pitching is plenty strong, especially if Wells stays. Gordon Edes thought that might be a possibility. I think this team is built to win now. In two or three years, Schilling, Wakefield, Manny, Foulke and Lowell will be gone. Tek will be slowing down. They have nice prospects, but in two -three years I doubt that they will have developed 5 or 6 ALL-Star type players. That is just not realistic. Also, I am not advocate moving all of the blue-chippers, just two.

[ORS]

Offensively, if they had Papi, Manny and Miggy, they could get an all field, no hit CF. They should be able to pick up a versatile 4th OF. I think the pitching is plenty strong, especially if Wells stays. Gordon Edes thought that might be a possibility. I think this team is built to win now. In two or three years, Schilling, Wakefield, Manny, Foulke and Lowell will be gone. Tek will be slowing down. They have nice prospects, but in two -three years I doubt that they will have developed 5 or 6 ALL-Star type players. That is just not realistic. Also, I am not advocate moving all of the blue-chippers, just two.

They certainly do have the pieces to win now. If a package with Clement, Lester, and Marte got the deal done, then you would essentially have 2004 redux, which isn't a bad thing. However, that would mean that after 2007 (bye Curt, bye Keith, bye Trot, one year of Manny left) we would be seeing another disassembling of a championship caliber team as we are seeing now. Only, this time, there would be less in the cupboard to restock the roster. I think they can compete now, while still building that post-2007 club that they have evidently been assembling. Call me patiently greedy, but I prefer to see how that team pans out since it has a good chance to be a powerhouse that would stay together for longer than a couple of years (provided they pony up the dough to keep the younsters beyond arbitration).

[ksushi]

Offensively, if they had Papi, Manny and Miggy, they could get an all field, no hit CF. They should be able to pick up a versatile 4th OF. I think the pitching is plenty strong, especially if Wells stays. Gordon Edes thought that might be a possibility. I think this team is built to win now. In two or three years, Schilling, Wakefield, Manny, Foulke and Lowell will be gone. Tek will be slowing down. They have nice prospects, but in two -three years I doubt that they will have developed 5 or 6 ALL-Star type players. That is just not realistic. Also, I am not advocate moving all of the blue-chippers, just two.

 

Its not like the red sox will not be allowed to add via free agency down the road either. And in 2 years, schill will retire, and likely so will wakefield. Giving up your prospects just because you don't have enough to field a team by themseleves is not a solution. I'll roll the dice with the kids, personally, and feed the beast with free agents rather than acquire Tejada with all my young kids and rely solely on free agency 2 or 3 years from now.

 

Am I getting through at all? Eh?

[Manny Goes Boom]

Offensively, if they had Papi, Manny and Miggy, they could get an all field, no hit CF. They should be able to pick up a versatile 4th OF. I think the pitching is plenty strong, especially if Wells stays. Gordon Edes thought that might be a possibility. I think this team is built to win now. In two or three years, Schilling, Wakefield, Manny, Foulke and Lowell will be gone. Tek will be slowing down. They have nice prospects, but in two -three years I doubt that they will have developed 5 or 6 ALL-Star type players. That is just not realistic. Also, I am not advocate moving all of the blue-chippers, just two.

 

They could be and why risk the chance that they will and give them to Baltimore for a 30 yr old SS, and let Baltimore run and hide with the AL East for the next decade or so? For 2006 that lineup would be REDICULOUS and video game-esque but like One Red Seat and Ksushi said the young guns will be around longer, and you never know they could be better.

[elsrbueno]

Offensively, if they had Papi, Manny and Miggy, they could get an all field, no hit CF. They should be able to pick up a versatile 4th OF. I think the pitching is plenty strong, especially if Wells stays. Gordon Edes thought that might be a possibility. I think this team is built to win now. In two or three years, Schilling, Wakefield, Manny, Foulke and Lowell will be gone. Tek will be slowing down. They have nice prospects, but in two -three years I doubt that they will have developed 5 or 6 ALL-Star type players. That is just not realistic. Also, I am not advocate moving all of the blue-chippers, just two.

 

Tejada to Boston without Manny very simply isn't going to happen. This is obviously one man's opinion, but let me justify it:

 

#1: The Orioles didn't want to trade Miguel within the division when they were getting Manny in the deal. What makes you think they'll do it without any immediate help?

 

#2: The Red Sox have maintained that they will not mortgage the future for a win-now mentality. Trading Marte, Lester, and Shoppach (along with a Clement) for Tejada would go a long way toward killing the future, and not only that, you're hooking up Baltimore (a direct competitor) for years. I don't like the idea at all.

 

Considering the White Sox probably have an offer along the lines of Jose Contreras, Juan Uribe, and a couple of decent prospects on the table, the Red Sox would have to top that by a considerable margin (IMO) to convince Baltimore to send Tejada to a direct competitor. I just don't see that happening here.

 

Tejada is a fantastic player and great hitter, and while I love the IDEA of Tejada in Boston (especially with Manny and Ortiz in the lineup too), I just don't think it's realistic.

[guapo34]

I don't get why we'd have to top chicagos offer by a significant margin though. If the orioles think they're getting the better deal from us, then they should want to trade with us because it would make us weeker, and them better. This logic that since we're in the division they need to get much more is rediculous. Also, how is Manny and Clement not MUCH better than Contreras, Uribe, and a couple prospects, especially since the prospect has not been reported to be brandon mccarthy? Contreras had half a good year and he is pretty old. He can't be much better than Clement. Manny has a huge edge over Uribe and a couple prospects.

[elsrbueno]

I don't get why we'd have to top chicagos offer by a significant margin though. If the orioles think they're getting the better deal from us, then they should want to trade with us because it would make us weeker, and them better. This logic that since we're in the division they need to get much more is rediculous. Also, how is Manny and Clement not MUCH better than Contreras, Uribe, and a couple prospects, especially since the prospect has not been reported to be brandon mccarthy? Contreras had half a good year and he is pretty old. He can't be much better than Clement. Manny has a huge edge over Uribe and a couple prospects.

 

Two things:

#1: The Orioles have expressed that they are not enamored with the idea of moving Tejada within the division. So that's instantly a knock on the Sox' chances. Think about it: If you got a comprable offer for Manny from the Orioles or the White Sox, where would you send him? White Sox all the way. Why? Because if Manny's in Baltimore he's going to have a chance to hurt you 19 times. If he's in Chicago, it's more like 9 times. You'd love it even more if you got a package from the Cubs ot Mets because then you'd face him at most 3 times.

 

#2: I think you're overstating the value of Manny Ramirez. First of all, his contract prices him out of at least half of the teams in the majors. Second, he signed his contract in an inflated market-- and guys like Albert Pujols and Vladimir Guerrero, who are both better players than Manny Ramirez, are making a lot less money (to the tune of $5 million). Third, he's a one-dimensional player. He's bad defensively, he's got no speed, his arm is decent (but he does play half his games in Fenway's left field keep in mind) and his bat is really his only valuable tool. This is not to mention the constant controversy he causes by requesting trades every 5 minutes and retracting those requests later, and the fact that he probably gives at most 80% effort on the field.

 

Matt Clement has tarnished his baseball reputation if you ask me with his second half collapse last year and his poor performance in the playoffs. He's got much more value staying here and trying to rebound than on the trade market.

 

Like it or not, Jose Contreras' value on the trade market is high right now. Not only was he one of the best pitchers in baseball in the second half last year, but he was also dominant in the playoffs. Juan Uribe is a very good defensive shortstop who at 26 is on the rise. He will probably never have the offensive prowess of Tejada, but in Camden yards could probably approach 25-30 homers since it's a right handed hitter's park. It is my understanding that the White Sox were offering top prospects (although not McCarthy) in addition to Contreras and Uribe, and under the circumstances, Baltimore is probably not going to compete in 2006, why not build for 07/08?

 

If I'm the Orioles, and I am looking at getting a headcase starting pitcher (which is Clement's REPUTATION right now) and at best an enigmatic slugger who COULD demand a trade after one season (which is his right, and I HAVE to honor it or he could opt free agency)

 

or

 

a hot pitcher who's instantly my ace, an up and coming shortstop, and 2 top prospects???

 

I'd take the second deal hands down.

 

I've said this about 10,000 times on this website: Pitching and defense wins championships. Manny Ramirez + Matt Clement doesn't come close to Uribe, Contreras and two prospects as far as improving those two areas is concerned.

[ORS]

Plus, you have to figure what the organizational philosophy is at the time. Are they trying to win now, or build an annual contenter? If it's win now, then Manny and Matt are a better option. However, if Angelos sees that even with a HOF slugger and good pitcher, his team won't contend for the playoffs, then a deal with prospects is probably more appealing. Angelos has proved himself to be a star-gazer that doesn't make sound moves in the past, but he could be learning from mistakes. The O's could certainly use some help in their farm system.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Alright here it is:

 

We do not trade our top prospects for Miguel Tejada...period.

 

Pitching wins, not hitting. Yes having a lineup of Ortiz, Manny, and Tejada would be nasty but if we were going to trade prospects...I want another ace caliber pitcher instead. The Red Sox have there backs to the wall at the moment with SS but I still believe Pedroia is on his way and Alex Cora/Tony Graffanino are more than capable. Strong defense and top pitching...that is what we need. If we were going to trade great hitter for great hitter that is one thing. When you start mentioning names like Jon Lester then it becomes silly. The Chicago White Sox basically laughed at the Orioles cause they asked for Brandon McCarthy. In my opinion McCarthy is not the pitcher Lester or Papelbon is so why would we do that deal??

 

Other names like Andy Marte and Dustin Pedroia don't make a lot of sense either. These guys have the chance to come up through our system and be born into the Boston Red Sox. They have the chance to really connect with the team and be brought up with other guys in the system forming a strong bond and becoming something special. In the end I want to see the core of the Red Sox made up of players FROM the Red Sox. Just imagine down the road the center of our field made up of Lowrie (2nd) Pedroia (SS) and Ellsbury (CF) with the rotation being anchored by Papelbon and Lester and games are closed out by Hansen. Meanwhile Andy Marte is cleaning up with 40 HRs a season and winning gold gloves.

[elsrbueno]

Alright here it is:

 

We do not trade our top prospects for Miguel Tejada...period.

 

Pitching wins, not hitting. Yes having a lineup of Ortiz, Manny, and Tejada would be nasty but if we were going to trade prospects...I want another ace caliber pitcher instead. The Red Sox have there backs to the wall at the moment with SS but I still believe Pedroia is on his way and Alex Cora/Tony Graffanino are more than capable. Strong defense and top pitching...that is what we need. If we were going to trade great hitter for great hitter that is one thing. When you start mentioning names like Jon Lester then it becomes silly. The Chicago White Sox basically laughed at the Orioles cause they asked for Brandon McCarthy. In my opinion McCarthy is not the pitcher Lester or Papelbon is so why would we do that deal??

 

Other names like Andy Marte and Dustin Pedroia don't make a lot of sense either. These guys have the chance to come up through our system and be born into the Boston Red Sox. They have the chance to really connect with the team and be brought up with other guys in the system forming a strong bond and becoming something special. In the end I want to see the core of the Red Sox made up of players FROM the Red Sox. Just imagine down the road the center of our field made up of Lowrie (2nd) Pedroia (SS) and Ellsbury (CF) with the rotation being anchored by Papelbon and Lester and games are closed out by Hansen. Meanwhile Andy Marte is cleaning up with 40 HRs a season and winning gold gloves.

 

yes.

 

I agree completely. In the end what's even more important to me than having players who "grew up Red Sox" as you put it is having a solid young core group that you can build around. That way they grow up in the bigs together, and instead of adding big-time free agents and wasting money (ahem, Yankees), you're adding spare parts to win championships.

 

If the Orioles are smart, they'd much sooner make a trade with a White Sox team offering good young players like Uribe and good prospects than you are accepting Manny Ramirez IMO.

 

Boston HAS TO hold on to the likes of Lester, Papelbon, Pedroia, and Marte. This is a huge part of the core group I'm talking about. The key to winning is strong defense and strong pitching. Winning teams do not have the biggest superstars or the highest payrolls. Winning teams play good fundamental baseball.

 

The Red Sox DID NOT win because they had Manny Ramirez. That's ********. They won because they had Curt Schilling and Pedro Martinez, and guys like Derek Lowe and Keith Foulke had HEROIC pitching performances in October. Not to mention they had the luxury of having a fantastic defensive infield of Mueller, Cabrera, Reese, and Mientkiewicz late in games.

 

Beckett and Papelbon should form a nice 1-2 punch of good young pitchers, and if Jon Lester becomes what everyone says he will, then you've all of a sudden got a threesome that could rival Mulder-Zito-Hudson or even Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz..... and look what happened to THOSE teams.

 

I'm with SITN. Keep Papelbon and Lester at all costs.

[guapo34]

Two things:

#1: The Orioles have expressed that they are not enamored with the idea of moving Tejada within the division. So that's instantly a knock on the Sox' chances. Think about it: If you got a comprable offer for Manny from the Orioles or the White Sox, where would you send him? White Sox all the way. Why? Because if Manny's in Baltimore he's going to have a chance to hurt you 19 times. If he's in Chicago, it's more like 9 times. You'd love it even more if you got a package from the Cubs ot Mets because then you'd face him at most 3 times.

 

But this reasoning makes no sense if they think Manny is better than Clement. Sure we'd have tejada and they'd have to face him 19 times a year, but they wouldn't have to face Manny 19 times a year, and we would. Manny has put up better offensive numbers than Tejada every year, and he's been far more consistent. We'd be idiots to offer more than Manny and Clement, except money.

 

 

#2: I think you're overstating the value of Manny Ramirez. First of all, his contract prices him out of at least half of the teams in the majors. Second, he signed his contract in an inflated market-- and guys like Albert Pujols and Vladimir Guerrero, who are both better players than Manny Ramirez, are making a lot less money (to the tune of $5 million). Third, he's a one-dimensional player. He's bad defensively, he's got no speed, his arm is decent (but he does play half his games in Fenway's left field keep in mind) and his bat is really his only valuable tool. This is not to mention the constant controversy he causes by requesting trades every 5 minutes and retracting those requests later, and the fact that he probably gives at most 80% effort on the field.

 

I understand Manny is overpaid, and Tejada is underpaid. However, because of deferals, Manny's AAV only comes out to about $17 million/yr for 3 years, so hes not as overpaid as most people think. Pujols and Guerreros contracts aren't really important in analyzing how much Manny is worth. Both are clearly underpaid. Pujols loves it in St. Louis, as most players who play there do, and took less than he would've gotten on the open market to stay there. Vlad, along with Tejada, signed in the worst off season market for players in a long time. Damon got $13 million/yr this offseason and I'd much rather have Manny. I don't think Manny would have any trouble getting a 3 year $45 million contract if he were a free agent. Factoring in position and defense, Manny and Tejada are pretty much a wash. Manny has put up a cumulative WARP of 21.4 over the last 3 years to Tejadas 22.1 WARP factors in defense and position played.

 

Matt Clement has tarnished his baseball reputation if you ask me with his second half collapse last year and his poor performance in the playoffs. He's got much more value staying here and trying to rebound than on the trade market.

 

Like it or not, Jose Contreras' value on the trade market is high right now. Not only was he one of the best pitchers in baseball in the second half last year, but he was also dominant in the playoffs. Juan Uribe is a very good defensive shortstop who at 26 is on the rise. He will probably never have the offensive prowess of Tejada, but in Camden yards could probably approach 25-30 homers since it's a right handed hitter's park. It is my understanding that the White Sox were offering top prospects (although not McCarthy) in addition to Contreras and Uribe, and under the circumstances, Baltimore is probably not going to compete in 2006, why not build for 07/08?

 

In the words of Glen Ordway, you're making my point for me here. By saying Clement has more value staying here, your agreeing he is undervalued on the trade market. I'm not saying he should be highly sought after, and I understand Contreras had a better year last year, but i think both Clement is undervalued and Contreras is overvalued. Contreras is old, and has only had one good year. He's listed as 34 next year, but thats in question. If they want to build for 07/08 then hes pretty worthless if you ask me. Uribe is good, a little above average at SS, but not the kind of player you move Tejada for. I don't know much about the White Sox farm system, but i have a hard time believing the prospects are THAT good.

[guapo34]

double post

[guapo34]

yes.

 

I agree completely. In the end what's even more important to me than having players who "grew up Red Sox" as you put it is having a solid young core group that you can build around. That way they grow up in the bigs together, and instead of adding big-time free agents and wasting money (ahem, Yankees), you're adding spare parts to win championships.

 

If the Orioles are smart, they'd much sooner make a trade with a White Sox team offering good young players like Uribe and good prospects than you are accepting Manny Ramirez IMO.

 

Boston HAS TO hold on to the likes of Lester, Papelbon, Pedroia, and Marte. This is a huge part of the core group I'm talking about. The key to winning is strong defense and strong pitching. Winning teams do not have the biggest superstars or the highest payrolls. Winning teams play good fundamental baseball.

 

The Red Sox DID NOT win because they had Manny Ramirez. That's ********. They won because they had Curt Schilling and Pedro Martinez, and guys like Derek Lowe and Keith Foulke had HEROIC pitching performances in October. Not to mention they had the luxury of having a fantastic defensive infield of Mueller, Cabrera, Reese, and Mientkiewicz late in games.

 

Beckett and Papelbon should form a nice 1-2 punch of good young pitchers, and if Jon Lester becomes what everyone says he will, then you've all of a sudden got a threesome that could rival Mulder-Zito-Hudson or even Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz..... and look what happened to THOSE teams.

 

I'm with SITN. Keep Papelbon and Lester at all costs.

 

 

I think Manny deserves a lot more credit than you're giving him for the world series win. You bring up defense but seem to forget Muellers 2 errors in game one and Mannys outfield assist at the plate in game 4.

 

Mulder-Zito-Hudson-never won a playoff series

Maddus-Glavine-Smoltz-won 1 world series despite making the playoffs every year they were together and usually with the best pitching in the national league, something you seem to believe is by far the most important factor in winning a world series.

 

Unfortunately a better example would be the Yankees in the late 90s. They developed young position players and pitchers, and filled in the key holes with trades and free agents. They certainly signed a lot of their important pitchers though and developed their all star position players.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I think Manny deserves a lot more credit than you're giving him for the world series win. You bring up defense but seem to forget Muellers 2 errors in game one and Mannys outfield assist at the plate in game 4.

 

Mulder-Zito-Hudson-never won a playoff series

Maddus-Glavine-Smoltz-won 1 world series despite making the playoffs every year they were together and usually with the best pitching in the national league, something you seem to believe is by far the most important factor in winning a world series.

 

Unfortunately a better example would be the Yankees in the late 90s. They developed young position players and pitchers, and filled in the key holes with trades and free agents. They certainly signed a lot of their important pitchers though and developed their all star position players.

 

Mulder-Zito-and Hudson never won but its still the correct way to build a team. The Chicago White Sox, Angels, Florida Marlins, Arizona D-backs, Atlanta Braves (1995)....I'm going to say they all won based on there pitching. Hitting at the right moments is obviously key (you have to score to win) but a team that has great pitching has a better chance to raley than a team holding on by a thread.

[jimmycarter05]

Mulder-Zito-and Hudson never won but its still the correct way to build a team. The Chicago White Sox, Angels, Florida Marlins, Arizona D-backs, Atlanta Braves (1995)....I'm going to say they all won based on there pitching. Hitting at the right moments is obviously key (you have to score to win) but a team that has great pitching has a better chance to raley than a team holding on by a thread.

 

 

Yeah the D-Backs had Curt Schilling and RJ going.

[jimmycarter05]

Sorry about the double post, and I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, but its another case of Manny being Manny;

 

After spending much of the winter trying to accommodate star slugger Manny Ramirez's wish for a trade, it appears the Red Sox might now have to stop in their tracks.

 

Or maybe not.

 

Ramirez, who as a 10-5 player (10 years in the Major Leagues, five with the same team) can veto any potential deal, supposedly told an ESPN Deportes reporter in Miami that he no longer wants to be traded.

 

"There will be no trade. I'm staying in Boston, where I'm familiar with the system and where I have a lot of friends, especially David Ortiz," Ramirez was quoted as saying on ESPNdeportes.com.

 

However, Ramirez told his agent, Greg Genske, that he wasn't aware of speaking to a reporter from ESPN Deportes, or any media member for that matter.

 

Perhaps Ramirez held a casual conversation with Enrique Rojas, who wrote the story for ESPNdeportes.com, but didn't know that Rojas was a reporter. Speculation has fueled so much of this latest Ramirez saga, in large part because the player has yet to declare his intentions in a public forum.

 

Until the ESPN Deportes article, there hadn't been a Ramirez quote in any publication since the Red Sox's season ended in early October.

 

Furthermore, even in light of the latest story, of which the accuracy could not be confirmed, Genske told Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com that Ramirez was still open to being traded.

 

"If Boston is able to work out a trade with Baltimore or another team, Manny is still open to making a move," Genske told FOXSports.com.

 

Red Sox co-general manager Ben Cherington had no comment on the latest twist regarding Ramirez.

 

Early in this offseason, the Red Sox were having a hard time generating a proposal substantial enough to consider trading Ramirez, the American League's premier right-handed hitter of the last decade. But hope arrived on Dec. 8, when Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada announced that he was also looking for a change of scenery.

 

What better way for both teams to satisfy their disenchanted All-Stars than to trade them for one another?

 

The Red Sox and Orioles had been discussing the matter frequently over the last couple of weeks, but as of Thursday, the clubs couldn't agree to a package that was satisfactory to both sides. The Red Sox, according to several reports, have also offered up right-hander Matt Clement as part of the potential blockbuster.

 

There have also been rumblings that Ramirez would only agree to a trade to Baltimore if they extended his contract beyond the three years and $57 million he has left.

 

But if Ramirez indeed wants to stay in Boston, that issue would become moot.

 

"I'm going to take things easy and focus on my career," Ramirez allegedly told ESPNdeportes.com.

 

If Ramirez has in fact done a complete reversal, it wouldn't be the first time.

 

Look no further back than July 2005, when Ramirez, citing privacy issues with the city of Boston, told the Red Sox he wanted to be traded. After a couple of days in which the Red Sox explored a deal with the Mets, the slugger wound up staying and appeared to be happy about it.

 

Just hours after the July 31 trade deadline passed, Ramirez dramatically delivered a game-winning, pinch-hit single and got a huge ovation from the Fenway faithful.

 

"These are the best fans in the world, man," said Ramirez immediately following that game. "They want to win. I want to win, too. I'm back."

 

Is he back again? It's hard to tell. Per usual with Ramirez, the whole matter remains highly mysterious.

 

Keeping Ramirez stationed behind Ortiz in the Boston lineup could be a big boost for a team that has undergone considerable transition this winter. Leadoff man Johnny Damon fled to the Yankees, Bill Mueller went to the Dodgers and Edgar Renteria was dealt to the Braves.

 

Ramirez, Ortiz, Jason Varitek and Trot Nixon could allow the Red Sox to have some semblance of familiarity to their everyday lineup.

 

One thing that seems highly unlikely is that Ramirez will go to the Mets, or any other National League team.

 

"I know the American League system. That's one reason I don't want to go to the National League," he was quoted as saying on ESPNdeportes.com. "I also want to play for a contender, and I think with Boston, I'm assured of that."

[example1]

Sorry about the double post, and I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, but its another case of Manny being Manny;

 

After spending much of the winter trying to accommodate star slugger Manny Ramirez's wish for a trade, it appears the Red Sox might now have to stop in their tracks.

 

Or maybe not.

 

Ramirez, who as a 10-5 player (10 years in the Major Leagues, five with the same team) can veto any potential deal, supposedly told an ESPN Deportes reporter in Miami that he no longer wants to be traded.

 

"There will be no trade. I'm staying in Boston, where I'm familiar with the system and where I have a lot of friends, especially David Ortiz," Ramirez was quoted as saying on ESPNdeportes.com.

 

However, Ramirez told his agent, Greg Genske, that he wasn't aware of speaking to a reporter from ESPN Deportes, or any media member for that matter.

 

Perhaps Ramirez held a casual conversation with Enrique Rojas, who wrote the story for ESPNdeportes.com, but didn't know that Rojas was a reporter. Speculation has fueled so much of this latest Ramirez saga, in large part because the player has yet to declare his intentions in a public forum.

 

Until the ESPN Deportes article, there hadn't been a Ramirez quote in any publication since the Red Sox's season ended in early October.

 

Furthermore, even in light of the latest story, of which the accuracy could not be confirmed, Genske told Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com that Ramirez was still open to being traded.

 

"If Boston is able to work out a trade with Baltimore or another team, Manny is still open to making a move," Genske told FOXSports.com.

 

Red Sox co-general manager Ben Cherington had no comment on the latest twist regarding Ramirez.

 

Early in this offseason, the Red Sox were having a hard time generating a proposal substantial enough to consider trading Ramirez, the American League's premier right-handed hitter of the last decade. But hope arrived on Dec. 8, when Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada announced that he was also looking for a change of scenery.

 

What better way for both teams to satisfy their disenchanted All-Stars than to trade them for one another?

 

The Red Sox and Orioles had been discussing the matter frequently over the last couple of weeks, but as of Thursday, the clubs couldn't agree to a package that was satisfactory to both sides. The Red Sox, according to several reports, have also offered up right-hander Matt Clement as part of the potential blockbuster.

 

There have also been rumblings that Ramirez would only agree to a trade to Baltimore if they extended his contract beyond the three years and $57 million he has left.

 

But if Ramirez indeed wants to stay in Boston, that issue would become moot.

 

"I'm going to take things easy and focus on my career," Ramirez allegedly told ESPNdeportes.com.

 

If Ramirez has in fact done a complete reversal, it wouldn't be the first time.

 

Look no further back than July 2005, when Ramirez, citing privacy issues with the city of Boston, told the Red Sox he wanted to be traded. After a couple of days in which the Red Sox explored a deal with the Mets, the slugger wound up staying and appeared to be happy about it.

 

Just hours after the July 31 trade deadline passed, Ramirez dramatically delivered a game-winning, pinch-hit single and got a huge ovation from the Fenway faithful.

 

"These are the best fans in the world, man," said Ramirez immediately following that game. "They want to win. I want to win, too. I'm back."

 

Is he back again? It's hard to tell. Per usual with Ramirez, the whole matter remains highly mysterious.

 

Keeping Ramirez stationed behind Ortiz in the Boston lineup could be a big boost for a team that has undergone considerable transition this winter. Leadoff man Johnny Damon fled to the Yankees, Bill Mueller went to the Dodgers and Edgar Renteria was dealt to the Braves.

 

Ramirez, Ortiz, Jason Varitek and Trot Nixon could allow the Red Sox to have some semblance of familiarity to their everyday lineup.

 

One thing that seems highly unlikely is that Ramirez will go to the Mets, or any other National League team.

 

"I know the American League system. That's one reason I don't want to go to the National League," he was quoted as saying on ESPNdeportes.com. "I also want to play for a contender, and I think with Boston, I'm assured of that."

 

This has been posted about a million times. People should probably just assume that if a story is more than 12 hours old, it has been posted and re-posted, discussed, digested, spat upon and redigested.

 

I don't really care if we post it a million times, but it could save people some time.

[elsrbueno]

I think Manny deserves a lot more credit than you're giving him for the world series win. You bring up defense but seem to forget Muellers 2 errors in game one and Mannys outfield assist at the plate in game 4.

 

Mulder-Zito-Hudson-never won a playoff series

Maddus-Glavine-Smoltz-won 1 world series despite making the playoffs every year they were together and usually with the best pitching in the national league, something you seem to believe is by far the most important factor in winning a world series.

 

Unfortunately a better example would be the Yankees in the late 90s. They developed young position players and pitchers, and filled in the key holes with trades and free agents. They certainly signed a lot of their important pitchers though and developed their all star position players.

 

It's true that Mulder-Zito-Hudson never won a playoff series, but a big part of that too was that the offense was build incorrectly. If you look at the Atlanta Braves of that time as well, they were both built the same way (unfortunately the same way the Red Sox seem to be going) in that they add a bunch of OBP guys and power hitters and pray for the 3-run homer.... and they lost some 1-0 games because their lineup just didn't stack up to other great pitching staffs.

 

The Red Sox won the World Series in 2004 DESPITE the defense of Mueller and Manny in game one, and in the other games played great fundamental baseball. They also got exceedingly lucky getting some breaks against the Yankees that they wouldn't have gotten in the past (Bellhorn's HR, the A-Rod fiasco), granted those were both the right calls, but could have been disastrous. Then there was Jeff Suppan being a stupid runner in (I think) game 3 which really gave the Red Sox a break. A lot of times in the playoffs (just look at the White Sox getting some controversial calls their way) it's luck that gives teams momentum and goes a long way toward determining winners in the playoffs.

 

I'm sort of getting away from my point here a little, but the Yankees of the late 90s were a MUCH MUCH different team than the team they sport now. They had strong pitching and a great FUNDAMENTAL team, and instead of 25 high priced all-stars they had 25 good players who played great when the pressure was on.

 

Anyway-- since both Manny and Miguel have announced (kinda) that they're staying the argument at this point is moot. I believe that you overvalue guys like Manny Ramirez and you disagree with me.... we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one....

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Adding another rumor to this thread...

 

according to the Buzz on Boston.com there was a rumor where Bobby Abreu and Gavin Floyd were mentioned in an exchange for Manny Ramirez and Matt Clement.

 

I don't know enough about Gavin Floyd to make a true judgement but he is a young pitcher. I still think we would need another player in the deal.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

I still think we would need another player in the deal.

 

 

Like Jason Michaels. Even if they did add him, I wouldn't be happy. Abreu would get eaten alive in Boston.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Like Jason Michaels. Even if they did add him, I wouldn't be happy. Abreu would get eaten alive in Boston.

 

New team that is competitive every year. He might change and have a good attitude you never know. Not like Manny isn't a pain right now so whats the difference. I like the idea of getting another good young pitcher (not sure what his ceiling is) but its on the right track. This goes back to when I was interested in trading Manny to the Angels and being able to get Ervin Santana. Another young pitcher with great potential is the direction we should go if possible. Abreu wouldn't be able to produce the same numbers as Manny but he is close. I would feel better giving up Manny for Abreu and Floyd while not including Clement. Then turn around and continue an attempt to move Clement for a CF or SS.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

I live near Philly. Trust me, the fans are all over him here. Imagine Boston. The guy is like...the king of garbage numbers. When he gets up in a 0-0 ballgame in the third, he'll do something. If he gets up in the ninth inning of a close game, you just know he's not going to do anything. He's also very streaky and an extreme downgrade from Manny.

(Not to completely knock him, one thing that would be good if he was here is that he could add some stolen bases and be a defensive upgrade.

[guapo34]

Just a Manny idea to throw out there. The Mets recently signed their first round draft pick, who they can't trade until June. Mike Pelfrey is a highly regarded starting pitcher coming out of this draft. If Manny is still unhappy coming up on the deadline this year a package of Milledge, Pelfrey, and either Heilman or a 3 way with Cliff Floyd going somewhere and us getting prospects/major league talent from the Team getting Floyd might work.

 

And just to address this before anyone brings it up, I know the Mets have said they won't trade Milledge or Heilman, I just don't believe it. I think we turned them down on a similar deal and they're trying to build up the confidence of their young players. Minaya is known for trading young guys for proven major league talent. By midseason through the trading deadline they will obviously be in position competing for the playoffs, and this is exactly the type of trade that will put them over the top.

 

As to why we'd do a trade like this, I really like Milledge, and if whoever we get to play Center is a short term option hes exactly the kind of player we need. By midseason Pelfrey could be regarded as one of the best young pitchers in the game. If hes not obviously that changes things.

 

As I'm typing this i guess the ideal time to make a move like this would be next offseason, when we'll be able to use any saved money to add to the team too.

[ksushi]

Won't happen. Milledge really isn't a very good player anyways. I'd be much happier grooming our own draft picks for this year and keeping Manny for the duration of his contract.

[guapo34]

While I won't be the least bit upset if we don't trade Manny, you lose some credibility when you say Milledge really isn't a very good player. Baseball Analyst ranked him 17th in all of baseball, ahead of all of our guys besides marte and lester. That includes Pappelbon and Hansen. He plays a position we have a need for. He put up a .337/.399/.579 line last year. Baseball Analyst wrote, "Lastings has future All-Star written all over him."

[example1]

Won't happen. Milledge really isn't a very good player anyways. I'd be much happier grooming our own draft picks for this year and keeping Manny for the duration of his contract.

 

What do you mean he isn't a very good player anyways? He hasn't even been tested in MLB yet, but is consistently seen as one of the best prospects in baseball.

 

He's certainly NOT Manny Ramirez, but to say outright that he's not a good player seems to be jumping the gun a little bit.

 

A future infield of

Shoppach

Marte

SS (Lowrie?)

Pedroia

Youk

 

with an OF of

Ellsbury, Milledge and FA with a good pitching staff is an interesting proposition. Add to that team that tendency for the sox to sign good FA's (thereby reducing the players above by about half) and you've got a great team.

 

Anyway, don't trade Manny for prospects. Just don't.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

What do you mean he isn't a very good player anyways? He hasn't even been tested in MLB yet, but is consistently seen as one of the best prospects in baseball.

 

He's certainly NOT Manny Ramirez, but to say outright that he's not a good player seems to be jumping the gun a little bit.

 

A future infield of

Shoppach

Marte

SS (Lowrie?)

Pedroia

Youk

 

with an OF of

Ellsbury, Milledge and FA with a good pitching staff is an interesting proposition. Add to that team that tendency for the sox to sign good FA's (thereby reducing the players above by about half) and you've got a great team.

 

Anyway, don't trade Manny for prospects. Just don't.

 

It would be hard to trade him for just prospects cause it would ruin the current team. If you can find a replacement for Manny while adding an additional prospect or two then we are making out on the deal in the long run and still set ourselves up for the present. I don't care what Phillies fans think of Bobby Abreu...the guy is a pretty good player and would put up good numbers in Boston. Not the same as Manny but who would?? If we were able to get Gavin Floyd and another top prospect it would be worth consideration.

[jimmycarter05]

The truth is that we need to fill our gaping holes at SS, CF, and a leadoff hitter. My opinion is that we trade one Clement and Cash for Jeremy Reed, because he's a proven defensive player and will be a great hitter as well. After that we fill David Well's trade demand and spin him off to the Dodgers for JD Drew and Cash, because he's a great hitter and we can put him in LF to protect him from injury. True the the Dodgers broke off talks with the Sox for Wells, but if we can take the vast majority of the 4 years/44 million they have, maybe 4 years/36-40 million, I'm sure they'll start talking again. Then we make a major blockbuster if all these rumors are true, here it is;

 

Phillies Get:

Bronson Arroyo-P

Manny-LF

Trot Nixon-RF

Lenny DiNardo-P

 

Boston Gets:

Robinson Tejada-P

Bobby Abreu-RF

Jimmy Rollins(we'll have him for 5 years during his prime)-SS

 

Boston's Lineup

 

Rollins-SS

Loretta-2b

Abreu-RF

Ortiz-DH

Drew-LF

Lowell-3b

Tek-C

Youk/Snow-1b

Reed-CF

 

Beckett

Wake

Schilling

Tejada

Paps

 

Foulke-CL

Mota-SU/MR

Seanz-SU/MR

Taveraz-SU/MR

Timlin-MR

Hansen/Declarman-MR

Lester-Long Reliever, Lefty out of Pen

 

Cora/Graff-2b/SS(add one of them to the trades to get them done)

Marte-3b/1b

Stern-4th OF

Ellsbury-4 OF

Flathery/Shoppach-C

 

Good and Young