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Wade Miley is an inconsistent MLB pitcher, but at least he’s an MLB pitcher. Lindblom might be better than Merrill Kelly, but he wasn’t pitching in Korea because he had a deep love of pickled cabbage...

I’ve noticed. Nothing wrong with expert testimony. But really the majority of yours is incomplete and questionable. Sure, Torre played Jeter a lot, but was it because of his offense or his defense? Worth noting, Jeter was once benched for an offensive slump. Wonder why Torre didn’t leave his glove in the lineup. Really your expert sources have the same flaws as moon’s...

At least he had a position. So far your contributions have all been “other people said so.” And while I agree about the imperfections in his data, any point that UZR suffers from the same flaws as the overwhelming majority of baseball data is also met with “other people said so.” I can see why you view sarcasm as a valued debate technique. Certainly over logic

Lindblom strikes me as the type of signing that will look really good at first. But by the beginning of June, the league will have caught up to him and he’ll just be another question mark...

Or say “Hanley.” Which would be easier because you didn’t prove he wasn’t.

The 35-7 was in Korea, where Lindblom pitched in the KBO...

No. It’s with the rationale that “a hit is a hit” because the official scorer says so, and “a strike is a strike because the umpire says so” and those are ironclad consistencies. But defensive metrics are in question because you don’t know how tough a play was to make? But all strikes not created equal, yet are called the same. Sorry but to call it acceptable over another equally questionable type of call because someone else makes it as weak. I hope you would never accept that type of logic in a debate (and as you were trained in debate, your former coach might also). And to accept official scorers on hit/out calls is probably the most egregious exception here. These guys are very far from consistent with each other. But if you’re comfortable with that level of double standard, not much can be done. As long as no one makes statements you disagree with, like about Jeter. By the way, I also asked a simple question that really ends the debate about him and you either balked or missed it. If Jeter wasn’t the worst defensive shortstop of his era, who was?

That’s the weakest possible ending. So all of your ranting about the “inherent problems” with UZR, when you’re confronted with these same flaws in all other stats, do you want to go out on “because someone else said so”? Especially since Stats, Inc. and SABR and Inside Edge all do work with MLB on determining this stuff. I think MLB might differ in opinion on the lack of an “official determiner”.

Actually a lot of defensive metrics are automated. The biggest issue is still the questions of interpretation. While fans expect clear cut rankings and “better” and “worse” players clearly defined and ranked, sometimes the differences in defensive metrics are too slight because the differences in the talents of the players are too slight. Arguing that there is no equivalent in offensive metrics just shows how you have let complacency set in. A “hit” is only a “hit” when the official scorer says so, and plenty of them are questionable and inconsistent with other scorers. Same goes for walks, since not all umpires have the same strike zone...

Let’s be fair. There is no bigger joke when it comes to defensive evaluation than the Gold Glove Award used to be. You know, back when it refused to acknowledge outfield was three positions and Derek Jeter was winning multiple times. Nowadays, SABR has actually been involved in adding a sabermetrics component to the balloting process. So the irony here is the process Elktonnick does take seriously actually uses the process he doesn’t...

The Gold Glove is like the Oscar. Sometimes it just goes to someone with a distinguished career and doesn’t take into account its own actual criteria...

... and backed up by a Yankee fan on this forum who views the entire world through pinstriped glasses...

Again, please explain the scientific validity behind Gold Glove balloting? No one ever said UZR was perfect, but nothing he says there cannot be said about batting average. Shall we disregard that stat in favor of the “more scientific” Silver Slugger balloting?

I’d like to know what makes Gold Gloves ballots valid from a scientific standpoint. Or do you allow the criteria to waiver in favor of the methods you like better? Also, shouldn’t it be “Joe Torre and Gold Gloves vs. UZR”? I think we can all agree, baseball forum input is the least reliable method of the three, but the preference for JT and GG over, say, me isn’t even close to a condemnation of the statistical analysis done for UZR (and DRS, which was in the article)...

So you prefer the old flawed system over the new flawed system? Don’t forget, UZR does compare to league averages. It’s not like Jeter was the only shortstop ever to position himself outside the center of range. Worth pointing out that article focuses on DRS, and Cashman clearly had some faith in the numbers...

Are you suggesting Salazar or Miley? Salazar is a waste on anything but a minor league deal. Miley certainly makes some sense...

Yeah that’s not really what it says...

Well the man’s bat was certainly a factor in keeping him in the lineup

Gold Gloves have always been the most questionable award, highlighted by the awarding of one to Rafael Palmeiro in a season where he was almost exclusively a DH. But I guess when players and coaches vote, that’s what happens. He really wasn’t the worst, but a big part of the reason are the two players I mentioned. Jeter has dozens of counterparts capable of doing everything he did on the field. And in many cases, more than he did. Were than any other worse shortstops I forgot? Jhonny Peralta and his 0 Gold Gloves would be the epitome of the “no range but makes the routine plays consistently” shortstop...

I actually would say he was closer to being the worst than the best - although some minimum innings criteria is needed. Consistency is nice, but it puts you in the pack; it doesn’t desperate you from it. That range is negated by current strategies (which isn’t true at all) is irrelevant here since those strategies were not employed during Jeter’s career. But really, when trying to disprove who or what was the worst or best or really, any extreme, it’s not readily disproved by describing what makes it ordinary. Now one better method would be to say who was worse. FWIW, I wouldn’t say Jeter was the worst defensive shortstop of his era, either. But I might say he was the worst one not named “Hanley” or “Yuniesky”....

Or the movie could focus on ERod and be called “A Force of One.” If ERod does get hurt, the title could be “And Then There Were None”...

Better news for Pirates’ fans

Yes. With 1b being largely regarded as the “easiest” position...

Well look around MLB. Nearly every team has a starter who changed positions at the MLB level.

He has. Really to me, the best defensive 3b of the two should play 3b. Dalbec is taller, which is an advantage at 1b. Or maybe Dalbec is trade bait. 1b doesn’t strike me as a tough spot to fill...