moonslav59

I was lucky to see Kareem play back when I lived in Milwaukee. He was Lew Alcindor, then, and he brought the city a championship. He revolutionized the center position. His hook shot was undefendable. He ran the court very well, for a 7 footer. He defended very well, rebounded, and gave his teams what they needed. I'm not usually one to reward players for longevity, but Kareem was great for a long, long time and a very big plus post-prime. 3 of the top 7 win shares seasons is second only to Wilt's 4 of top 8. Top 3 is about the highest I could say he is.

Top Win Share Seasons All Time: Wilt 4 in top 8 (6 in top 15) Kareem 3 of the top 7 Mikan (3 in top 12) Jordan (9th place was his best and 4 in top 20) LeBron (17th was his best and 2 in top 20) Oscar Robertson (13th was his best and only top 20) (Only David Robinson at #18 placed in the top 20)

I agree, but using career numbers, even the advanced one penalizes players who played for more post prime seasons. It's interesting to note that many of the best players of all time saw their best seasons in their first 7-9 seasons. Jordan took 2 seasons before reaching true elite greatness. (He did start in the NBA at age 21.) Since each player had varying periods of elite greatness, it's hard to choose a method that is fair to all players, such as their best 7 to 10 years stretch or their best 7-10 seasons, even if they are spread out. However, I think this sort of study helps lessen the penalty some players have by playing longer. Players that retire before post prime will have advantaged career traditional per game and advanced stats than those who played 15+ seasons. Here's a short study I put together: Best 7 consecutive seasons: Wilt (first 7) 39.6/24.8/3.5 Win Shares 141.4 (.266/48) Jordan (Ages 23-29) 33.2/6.4/6.0 Win Shares 132.2 (.285) The Big O (first 7) 30.4/9.4/10.7' Win Shares 117.6 (.235) Bill Russell (first 7) 17.1/23.1/3.5 WS 86.3 (.199) Best 11 straight seasons: Wilt (first 11) 34.3/24.2/4.5 Win Shares: 200.6 (.259) Jordan (ages 23-34 not counting off year) 32.0/6.3/5.4 Win Shares 189.0 (.281) The Big O (first 11) 28.3/ 8.2/10.1 Win Shares 166.6 (.220) Bill Russell (first 11) 15.8/23.1/4.2 WS 144.4 (.201)

Wilt played a long time, and his numbers late in his career brought his overall numbers down. Jordan ended up with a 30.12 pts/gm avg while Wilt finished at 30.07. Wilt averaged 41.5 over his first 6 seasons combined. He also averaged 25.1 rebounds in that period (3 assists)! He never finished with less than 18 rebounds a game in all 15 seasons. Advanced stats: PER: Player Efficiency Rating: Wilt led the league 8 times (all over 24.7). He had 10 straight years over 26.5 and 14 straight over 20. His last 2 seasons were 18.5 and 19.1. Career 26.1 (30.2 his first 6 seasons, 26.6 his next 4 seasons and 20.2 his last 5 with the Lakers.) Jordan led the league 7 times (all over 27.7).He had 9 straight years over 25.8. His worst season was last at 10.3. Career 27.9- better than Wilt. (I'm not sure if he beats Wilt's first 13 seasons- the length of Jordan's career. Win Shares/48 Wilt led the league in 8 seasons (all above .240). He had 11 straight seasons over .200 and only 2 below .200 in his 15 seasons (.192 and .167). Career .248 (He led the league in defensive win shares twice in his last 6 seasons Jordan led the league in WS/48 eight times, too. (all above .270). He only had 7 straight seasons over .200 and was under .200 four times, including his last 2 with Washington. His career was .250 (.274 in his 11 years with the Bulls). Wilt was .267 his first 10 seasons. I doubt anyone can ever top Wilt's first 4 years: 42.9 Pts (leader all 4 years) 26.0 reb (leader all 4 years) 2.5 Asts or his first 7: 39.6 (led league all 7 years) 24.8 (led league 5 of 7 years) 3.4 Jordan in season's 3 through 6 (4 years) 34.5 (led all 4) 6.4 reb 6.2 Ast Jordan's 3 through 9 years (7 years) 33.2 (led all 7, but led 3 more seasons afterwards) 6.4 6.0 The Big O's first 4 seasons 30.2 10.7 10.4 (3 time league leader in Ast) He was still at triple double after 5 years 30.3/10.4/10.6 and 6 years 30.4/10.0/10.7 He nearly reached the triple double after 7 years and was still over 30 points! 30.4 9.4 10.7 (led league in 5 of 7 and then the next 2, so 7 of first 9 seasons) Some amazing numbers by all three.

Yes, but even little and mid-sized players can get rebounds- sometimes lots of 'em. Big guys can make a lot of assists. All can score, although some in much different ways, but football players never or rarely do any of the tasks asked of different positions on the team- like throw or run with the ball, cover a fast receiver or block or tackle someone. We saw Magic Johnson, one of the best point guards in the history of the game play the center position in a key playoff game and totally dominate. We saw Wilt get near and over 8 assists per game for 2 years in a row when needed, while still averaging 24 points and 24 rebounds. We saw Oscar Robertson average a triple double in his first 3-4 years combined- while scoring 30+ points! We saw the NCAA change the dunking rules for Lew Alcindor (Jabbar) and watched him develop an unstoppable hook shot. No doubt, Jordan was among the best of the best, especially at the end of close playoff games. He dominated his era and put up some great numbers. 6 rings is amazing for that era, but Jabbar got 6 and Magic 5 in slightly overlapping eras.

I hear you, and I do like the idea of comparing like positioned or skilled player to each other, but eventually I can't help but take the next step- comparing the very best from each category to the others to give my opinion on the GOAT. To me, it's about who dominated his era, his position (maybe even revolutionized the position in some cases) and was the most essential player on his team when winning championships. It's not all about championships, that's why I have Wilt #1. Russell's stats back up his #2 slot as much as the rings.

Basketball rings can be won with just one superstar- Football, not so much. Compare Russells 11 rings in 13 years plus two NCAA championships to Brady's 6 in 20 seasons- nothing to sneeze at but football takes a team of 40+ players, a coach and a few stars. Just my take.

Bill Russell was beating Wilt Chamberlain many of those ring years, and Wilt had some great supporting casts many of those years. Paul Arizan, Al Attles, Guy Rodgers & Tom Gola Nate Thurmond & Wayne Hightower Hal Greer, Cher Walker, Billy Cunningham & Wali Jones (Luke Jackson/Larry Costello)Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Happy Hairiston & Dick Garrett The St. Louis Hawks had Bob Petite, Cliff Hagan (20+ pts/10+ Reb), Clyde Lovellette (20+/10+) & Lenny Wilkens The earlier Laker teams also had Dick Barnett and more.

To me, Wilt and Russell dominated their era more than Jordan, and they did it for longer. To me, it's not about how good Wilt or Russell would be in Jordan's era. We'll never know. I go by the numbers as compared to other players in their era and ring totals where the player was an essential piece to winning all the rings. Yes, the Celts had some great teams, but Russell was essential. How many do they win without him? Maybe as much as the Bulls without Jordan: zero. (Maybe not) How would Jordan have done in the 60's? Maybe he'd beat the Celtics single-handedly, but we'll never know. While the league was smaller back in the 60's, it may not have been so watered down.

Simple: 1. Jim Brown 2. Lawrence 3. Tom

I never said it was easy or clear-cut, and I have no problem saying this guy is the best big man, this guy is the best little guy and this guy is the best tweener, but eventually, it seems natural to give your opinion on who you think is the best of the best. To me, rebounds are under-rated. I get how the league was different then, and in some ways, Wilt and Russell were men among boys, but it's precisely that image that proves how much they dominated the competition of their time, and to me, that's what I go by. (Not saying anyone else's criteria is wrong.) 1. Wilt 2. Russell 3. Jordan 4. LeBron 5. The Big O

Why? I realize there are vast differences in the skillsets of Wilt, Russell and Kareem as compared to Jordan & LeBron, and maybe Bird and the Big O deserve their own grouping, too, but the GOAT should include everybody. It's harder to distinguish the best pitcher from the best everyday player than this.

He's gotta be top 5, and I'm a Celtics- hater. 2 NCAA Championships in his last 2 years Olympic Gold (1956) 11 out of 13 championships in the NBA That's 14 championships or gold medals in 15 years playing against the highest competition in the world. His playoff numbers were better than his regular season numbers, too. The guy was a winner. I would not argue with anyone saying he was the very best. Wilt, Jordan, LeBron and Russell, to me, are indisputable top 5 ever. The fifth guy is harder to name: Kareem? Magic? Oscar Robertson? Bird? (I disagree on Kobe.)

HOF Coach Dead at Age 90 My condolences go his family and friends.

Good news. The trade sure looks great, now.

I used to shoot pool in a place that had a juke box with whole albums. I used to pick Mountain Jam, so my money would go farther. LOL

Another Yankee exposed as a creep... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mickey-mantle-greeting-card-diane-shah_n_5ea1ae3dc5b6c12e6a5e9cdc

Good read... http://news.soxprospects.com/2020/04/cup-of-coffee-retrospective-of-eduardo.html?fbclid=IwAR1qIBG-fq12_zN87O7VAP1Ge_ieAPb970T2qllZqsKlp7_OHFrT52N7Q8k

Well said.

It's hard to know what will happen to player salaries after this.

Depends. We lose some salary.

Good read... https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/04/mookie-betts-trade-season-canceled-dodgers-red-sox.html

Winner ^ Not mentioned: Jack Kemp

1. Breaking Bad 2. The Sopranos 3. Better Call Saul 4. Game of Thrones Others: (Not in any particular order) Goliath, Fargo, Mad Men, Rectify, The West Wing, Shameless, Deadwood. Sleepers: Dexter, Sneaky Pete, Ozark, Weeds

My prayers go out to your family.