moonslav59

On the third point, I don't think Wong was part of the original deal, so Bloom felt Wong was needed to bring the total value up to what he felt a healthy Graterol was worth. Downs+Wong=healthy Graterol That hints at the feeling that Bloom did NOT value Downs as higher than Graterol- even a healthy one. Now, one could argue maybe Bloom had LA over a barrel and got them to throw in Wong, even though he may have taken just Downs.

I think we keep Weber and probably Mazza. So, assuming we protect Bazardo, along with Seabold, Wong, Mata, Potts, Rosario & Groome, we'll need to clear 3 slots. (We currently have 36 players on the 40 man roster.) 1. Bye bye Pedey. 2. Bye bye Brice 3. Bye bye Springs When we start adding free agents: 1. Hall 2. Stock 3. Walden 4. Aybar or Wilson 5. Chatham or Arauz 6. Hart, Mazza, Weber

Yes, my question was that during the prior negotiations, is there any indication of Bloom asking for Downs, first? I agree with what your point about Bloom thinking Downs was a higher value than a "broken" Graterol, but I think he wanted a healthy Graterol over Downs at the start. Did we get Wong as a sweatner for not getting a healthy Graterol,or was he part of the Graterol return to begin with?

Do you think Bloom originally asked for Downs or Graterol? Maybe he did ask for Downs, was turned down, then after the Graterol physical, he got LA to agree to Downs. Maybe Downs was plan B all along. Was Wong part of the original deal?

They haven't added a significant catcher since they apparently wanted Vaz earlier this year.

Good point. He's just not a priority to me.

I'm thinking a thread about prospects is generally going to be geared towards speculating on future possibilities.

It's also about money. They are saving a lot of money by replacing Springer with JBJ. Replacing him with Marisnik may not go over very well with their fans.

I like what I hear about Jimenez, but no, I haven't seen any Sox prospects play since I went to a game in Portland, 3 years ago. I'm no expert on prospects, but I think, when all is said and done, he ends up better than Duran.

Nothing really new, here... https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/11/latest-on-chris-sale-eduardo-rodriguez-2.html

Like many Sox moves, Ramon had one of his worst years with us. ERA/IP 2.64/72 2.84/70 2.99/69 4.46/42 with BOS 2.62/29

Beltre played more innings with the Sox than Iggy. Iggy's innings with the Sox '11-'12: 112 SS '13: 279 SS, 240 3B & 12 2B TOTAL: 743 innings Beltre put in 1343 innings in 2010 with the Sox- nearly double what Iggy gave us over 3 partial seasons.

We have plenty of room for a few more rule 5's.

So, his years of team control will go into his 30's and all of his prime years.

Bogey is a huge plus, despite his defense not helping his overall value (WAR). I may talk down his D, but I love the guy.

Crisp had a .720 OPS with us and a .729 career OPS. JBJ had a .732 OPS career. (.727 from 2017-2019) Reese was decent from 1999-2000 (.727), but he fell off the cliff afterwards (.627 2001-2004> retired).

Iggy did not have enough innings in one season to make the list. Here are the overall from 2004 to 2020 (400+ innings). Did you forget Adrian Beltre at 3B? SS 19.8 Reese 18.2 Iggy 14.4 Gonzo 10.9 Drew 6.5 Cora 4.8 Aviles 3.0 Green 2.8 Lowrie 0.0 Bogey -1.9 Scutaro -5.0 OCab (weird) -7.9 Lugo -9.6 Renteria 2B 9.1 Pedey 8.4 Cora 2.7 Holt 1.5 Graffanino -4.1 to -5.0 Chavis, Nunez, Loretta & Bellhorn CF 9.1 Crisp 6.3 JBJ 4.6 Ellsbury 3.0 Betts -3.4 Beni -8.7 DMac -13.3 Damon -18.1 Kalish -27.7 Cameron (weird)

No, I have done many data dives that only compare how each catcher did with the same pitchers. Leon and others consistently got better results with the vast majority of the same pitchers samples. Granted, some pitchers had vastly different sample size numbers with specific pitchers, but almost all of the ones with larger sample sizes favored someone not named Vaz. Pitchers with the most IP with the Sox since 2014: Porcello (964) 4.19 Leon (576) 4.93 Swihart (122) 4.96 Vaz (211) ERod (699) 3.78 Hanigan (50) note: small sample size 3.98 Vaz (456) 4.05 Leon (118) 4.44 Swihart (75) Price (588) 2.96 Leon (204) 4.27 Vaz (360) Sale (520) 2.79 Leon (436) 4.61 Vaz (84) Buch (423) 2.83 VMart (241) 3.01 Leon (155) 3.95 Salty (207) 4.44 Vaz (118) Kelly (359) 3.23 Vaz (98) 4.48 Swihart (74) 4.63 Leon (56) 4.83 Hanigan (91) Barnes (337) 3.81 Vaz (158) 3.83 Leon (99) The ones where Vaz did better have much closer differentials, except for Joe Kelly. He gets blown away with Porcello, Price, Sale and Buch. Their results are staggering! It doesn't seem to matter who catches for ERod & Barnes.

Lugo was actually pretty good defensively, until he got hurt and lost a step. He had plus range that more than made up for the unforced errors. When he lost that step, he became a net minus. The best Sox SSs by UZR/150 by year only since 2004 were (400+ innings): 19.8 Reese '04 14.6 Gonzo '06 9.9 S Drew '13 8.7 Cora '06 4.7 Aviles '12 3.0 Green '09 2.6 Bogey '15 1.7 Scutaro '11 1.3 Bogey '18 0.8 Bogey '19 -0.6 Lugo '07 (Worst: -9.6 Renteria '05) FYI: 2B in our ring years: 7.6 Pedey '13 4.2 Holt '18 4.1 Pedey '07 -6.2 Bellhorn '04 CF 25.3 Crisp '07 8.8 JBJ '18 1.4 Ellsbury '13 -10.0 Damon '04

To me, the full "defensive value" of a catcher is very hard to quantify, especially things like "getting the most out of the staff" or CERA type data, framing pitches, blocking passed balls and WP's and more. Time and time again, Vaz has under performed with pitchers when compared to our other catcher. I like Vaz, but I don't see him as an overall plus on D, when everything not having to do with offense is factored in.

"Truther?" Maybe "Alt-truther" fits better. (LOL)

No, but $5M, in today's depressed market can get us someone like Perez, or add to a $10M pitcher getting us a $15M one. If our budget can be $19.9M over the tax line, then I['m fine with taking a few gambles. However, I think there are better ones than Sanchez out there.

This is one reason I am open to seeing what return we could get. I'm not for pushing to trade him, but maybe someone offers us a nice package in return. Defense up the middle is a big priority. We do not have a great defensive catcher. 2B is an open slot. CF is an open slot.

In total agreement. As a teacher who has worked at 4 different schools in 13 years and several companies outside the educational profession. The principal/boss makes a huge difference.

Agreed. I'm thinking just having Cora back will make watching more enjoyable.