moonslav59

We still were a top spending team in 2019. Hands may have been tied only after massive spending had already occurred.

They let the guy spend like a maniac, so even if they did eventually take the checkbook away, it's hard to place the blame on ownership.

2004 Pedro Manny Ortiz Schilling Foulke Nomar (VTek, Damon, Youkilis, Mueller,Lowe) 2007 Manny Ortiz Pedey Lowell Youkilis Beckett Schilling Papelbon (VTek, JD Drew) 2011 Ortiz AGon Beckett Lester Pedroia Ellsbury Lackey Papelbon Youkilis (JD Drew, Crawford, Reddick) 2018 Betts Sale JD Martinez Bogaerts Price Devers Kimbrel Porcello (ERod, JBJ, Beni, Moreland, Vazquez) Hard for me to pick one.

You agreeing with me makes me feel the need to re-examine my position. (Just kidding.)

The theory makes total sense, and your response about maybe not needing the big stars to win it all has merit, too, but I don't see us winning in 2004 or 2007 without Manny. The 2007 team had 3 players with 4 or more year contracts: Manny, Papi and JD Drew. I understand you point about "overkill" like the 2018 team, but I think there has to be an occasional big splurge deal along with a mess of deals like the ones you like.

Much depends on how much of a winter budget Bloom is given. If they give him enough to get the pitching we need and a decent CF'er, and he has enough left over for a 2Bman, he may go that route. To me, our priorities are as such: urgent 1. SP (hopefully a #2 or #3) 2. Closer 3. CF 4. RP (decent set-up man) 5. SP depth (5/6 slot starter) non urgent 6. 2B 7. more pitching depth 8. CF/2Bman

Many of our stars were on the IL, but we still had a lot of stars on the roster. Many just did not play like one.

True. Many of those stars, along with others, were on our last place teams, too.

I doubt we make a big splash signing, but a big splash trade could be possible. Any thoughts of a big splash signing would have to be for a SP'er, and Bauer is the only guy.

I think we can wait until mid season to address the 2B position. Like I said, I would not be surprised if we do sign or acquire a 2Bman, but I do not think it is even close to a sure thing. Although Munoz is no longer on the 40 man roster, he's still in the system, and we have Chavis, Arroyo, Chatham and Arouz. I don't see Downs as part of the 2021 picture, but he's a possible 2Bman of 2022.

I'm certain we add a starting CF'er, but I'm not so sure about 2B. We may add a 2Bman, but he might not be the starter. He may be a back-up CF'er/2Bman. I could see Chavis being the starter at 2B with Arroyo getting plenty of playing time. The weird stat on both of these RH'd hitters is that they both hit righties better than lefties. While I would not be surprised at us signing a starting CF'er and 2Bman, I would also not be surprised, if we wait to see how our in house players do at 2B.

It was mostly about his option years, but he also wanted out after some shenanigans by management. They pretty much accused him of confusing which knee was injured and faking an injury. At the end, it was clear neither wanted the other. Sad ending, but it worked out okay for the Sox. (BTW, we are still paying him until 2026.)

True, but my point was, he was not wanted on the team at the end. Note: we ended up getting Workman as a comp pick for losing J Bay, and now we have Pivetta & Seabold from the Workman-Hembree trade.

Did you mean to say NOT surprised?

One could argue the opposite for pitchers we signed.

Exactly. You don't get a to FA unless you overpay or give too many years. Even the Manny deal, the best of our mega signings, ended poorly.

While agree with your theory on avoiding super large and long deals, one can make a firm case that just about every ring we have since 2004 was, at worst, aided by the signing of a long term FA, and at best, seeing the long term signing as an essential aspect of winning the ring. On that "other site," I started one of the most responded to posts in history called, "No Manny- No Rings." (Later, I stared threads called "No Papi- No Rings" and "No VTek- No Rings," too). Without Manny's deal, IMO, we don't win in 2004 or 2007. One can argue Papi's 4 year extension in 2005 does not qualify as a long term deal, but clearly he helped us win in 2004, 2007 & 2013. The same could be said of Beckett's 4 year deal in 2010 and our 2013 ring. JD Drew's 2007 contract for 5 years can be debated and was for years. John Lackey's 5 year deal in 2009 certainly was a key component in the 2013 season. David Price's long term deal seemed essential to our 2018 ring. Yes, the list of bad and mediocre long term signings by the Sox is long- perhaps longer than the good list, but long term deals have played an essential role in all of our championships. Moncada's large signing bonus and tax netted us Chris freakin' Sale. Castillo was a total waste. CC & Pablito's deals, too. Dice-K gave us 2-3 decent to very good seasons. AGon helped us dump CC & Beckett and paved the way to the 2013 championship by allowing us to sign Vic, Napoli, Drew, Gomes & Dempster. Pedey's extension was not needed for the 2013 ring season, and he was not an essential part of the 2018 season, but that deal was not a total dissaster.

I liked the Vic signing, despite knowing and saying it was a year too long, but a 3 year deal being a year too long beats the hell out of a 7 year deal that is 3 years too long. The first Napoli deal was a steal, due mainly to health concerns that kept the price & years low. I was not a big fan of the Drew signing, because of my wishes for Iggy becoming our FT SS. I hated the Dempster deal, and we lucked out when he retired.

Obviously, I was proven wrong, but I did feel much better about the team after signing Victorino, Gomes & Napoli. We also ended up flipping Cespedes for Porcello, then extending him for only his prime years- 2 things I didn't see coming when we traded Lester for 1 year of Cespedes.

I don't get it. If hitters were struggling, pitchers should have had better numbers. If both were struggling the numbers should have evened out.

I've mentioned Odorizzi as a good second tier signing and would like him in our rotation. Hill is a very good starter, but we need someone reliable and durable. Sugano seems like a good gamble. I have yet to hear our name linked to any decent RP'ers.

I was really talking about pre-start of season optimism, and although I liked our chances in 2004, it was hard for any Sox fan to get overly optimistic about winning a ring. Once that season started I was hooked. Once the Nomar trade was made I became very confident. The trades of 2012 bothered me. I was all for the cleaning of the house, but I felt we played it "halfway." That was the term I used. I felt we avoided a true rebuild by not acquiring enough young players ofr a longer term look. We tried to stay "just good enough" to give the fans false hopes for 2013 and not really enough to significantly affect the future beyond 2013. (Cespedes was a one year get.) I liked many of the winter signings, but felt we needed an ace. I've always hated rebuilding a rotation from the 4/5 slot, and Dempster did not thrill me, at all. One more thing about my optimism, for the most part, I am usually one of the last fans or posters to "give up" on a season in progress. This was not true in 2019, as I think I was maybe the first to think we had a great chance before the season started and then give up so early. I was calling for a fire sale by June... many suggested trades involving Eovaldi or Price. As for now, I have a little optimism for 2021, a lot depending on what Bloom does this winter, but I have a growing optimism for our longer term success, thanks in large part to the Bloom hiring. I think we did a better than expected job drafting with such low picks. I like the trades Bloom made to bring us a young star like Verdugo and prospects like Downs, Seabold, Rosario, Potts, Wong and Wallace. Our farm still has a way to go, but it is no longer a bottom 5 system. It may very well be in the top 15-18 after the next draft. I was one of many who saw"the cliff" coming, but I saw and still see that as realism not pessimism, but I'm more and more hopeful the down period is shorter than I originally expected.

Let's not hold a 52 PA sample size, like Beni's in 2020, against anybody, especially under the circumstances he was facing, okay? Now, let's look at the rest of his career? I don't see a steady or "declining performance." I see a young player with some ups and downs, early in his career. Remember, the guy had just 151 games in the minors. His OBP in his first 3 seasons in MLB (all seasons with 615+ PAs): .352 .366 .343 (He was at .357 at the end of August 2019). One could argue those numbers are remarkably consistent. Now, I'm not saying I'm unconcerned: I am. He certainly needs watching. I can agree on that.

Uh-oh.

That would be the 2022 thread.