The Grissom Watch

[Bellhorn04]

Grissom is a 23yo player who smashed the Atlanta farm system, graduating within 3 years and getting better at every level. Romy is a role player you don’t want to see out there 130 games a year. Sogard has a ceiling of utility infielder. Hamilton has exciting speed but is a weak fielder and whose hitting has dropped off. Valdez is a LF/DH miscast in the middle infield…

 

Hamilton has actually been really good considering his pay and experience. 2.4 bWAR and 1.5 fWAR going into today in about half a season's worth of PA's. He's 5th in fWAR among our position players.

 

Let's see if his HR today bumps those WARs a notch. I love that kind of trivial detail.

[moonslav59]

Hamilton has actually been really good considering his pay and experience. 2.4 bWAR and 1.5 fWAR going into today in about half a season's worth of PA's. He's 5th in fWAR among our position players.

 

Let's see if his HR today bumps those WARs a notch. I love that kind of trivial detail.

 

The SBs vs CS is a big plus, too. It's too bad his defense is lacking.

 

(He's also below .560 v LHPs, but with a utility guy, you gotta like the .750+OPS v RHPs.)

[Bellhorn04]

The SBs vs CS is a big plus, too. It's too bad his defense is lacking.

 

(He's also below .560 v LHPs, but with a utility guy, you gotta like the .750+OPS v RHPs.)

 

I wonder who is a better defensive 2B man, Hamilton or Grissom.

[Maxbialystock]

Our 2B position has been 29th or 30th in many categories from 2019-2023, combined: defense, offense, anything and everything.

 

We don't have to be number 1, or even #15, but 30th hurts the team.

 

The DHam-Romy platoon ha sstabilized the position, this year, and the SBs has boosted their value, but nobody expected them to play like this. In fact, DHam was last year's Grissom.

 

Then we disagree. The 2018 team was the best Sox team ever with an absolutely dreadful second baseman. I thought of Nunez as a saboteur. The 2021 Sox made it to the ALCS--which makes them better than the 2016 and 2017 Sox teams everyone incorrectly raves about--and that year a cast of thousands tried out for the 2b job. Iglesias turned out to be the best, but only played 23 games.

[Bellhorn04]

Then we disagree. The 2018 team was the best Sox team ever with an absolutely dreadful second baseman. I thought of Nunez as a saboteur. The 2021 Sox made it to the ALCS--which makes them better than the 2016 and 2017 Sox teams everyone incorrectly raves about--and that year a cast of thousands tried out for the 2b job. Iglesias turned out to be the best, but only played 23 games.

 

2B does seem like the place you can sort of stash a weaker player. Like Bellhorn in 2004.

 

Pedroia was a major exception of course.

[moonslav59]

I wonder who is a better defensive 2B man, Hamilton or Grissom.

 

I don't know, but I think given time, Grissom will be better.

 

With DHam's speed, I wonder if they ever considered moving him to OF.

 

Some tiny sample sizes, here, but...

 

OAA at 2B in '24

+2 DHam (220 innings)

0 Westbrook (102)

0 Sogard (78)

-2 Grissom (186)

-2 Romy (69)

-7 Valdez (396)

 

DRS

7 DHam

0 Westbrook

-2 Sogard

-2 Romy

-6 Valdez

 

UZR/150

-0.6 Valdez

-3.1 Romy

-4.0 Grisson

-7.1 DHam

[moonslav59]

Then we disagree. The 2018 team was the best Sox team ever with an absolutely dreadful second baseman. I thought of Nunez as a saboteur. The 2021 Sox made it to the ALCS--which makes them better than the 2016 and 2017 Sox teams everyone incorrectly raves about--and that year a cast of thousands tried out for the 2b job. Iglesias turned out to be the best, but only played 23 games.

 

Okay, I should have said 2B has been worst or near worst since 2018 NOT 2019.

 

Just because we can win with a horrible 2Bman, does not mean 2B is not important.

 

We sucked at 2B and tried to improve. That is not a bad idea. It just did not work as we expected.

[Maxbialystock]

I do think of all these players listed, Grissom might have the best chance at being a FT 2Bman, someday. It's a close call between he and DHam, IMO.

 

Valdez looks like a platoon DH,a nd how many of them are around?

 

Again, I disagree. The Sox have DFA'd, released, dumped, whatever Smith and McGuire and both contributed to this year's Sox team.

 

I love having great players on the Sox, but sometimes OK is good enough. Apparently, the wretched trainwreck named Nunez was OK in 2018. Now and then he got a key hit.

 

And you Grissom advocates keep sidestepping the fact that he's who we got for Chris freaking Sale while also paying Sale's $17M salary this year. And that happened in a season/offseason when it was obvious the Sox biggest weakness was pitching, not 2b.

[mvp 78]

I wonder who is a better defensive 2B man, Hamilton or Grissom.

 

Hamilton

[moonslav59]

Again, I disagree. The Sox have DFA'd, released, dumped, whatever Smith and McGuire and both contributed to this year's Sox team.

 

I love having great players on the Sox, but sometimes OK is good enough. Apparently, the wretched trainwreck named Nunez was OK in 2018. Now and then he got a key hit.

 

And you Grissom advocates keep sidestepping the fact that he's who we got for Chris freaking Sale while also paying Sale's $17M salary this year. And that happened in a season/offseason when it was obvious the Sox biggest weakness was pitching, not 2b.

 

I'm not "advocating" Grissom. I prefer DHam-Romy at 2B to end the season.

 

I only am arguing that it made sense to want to try and upgrade 2B- our very worst position since 2018: worse than SP1, SP2, SP3, SP4, SP5, RP1-8 and every other position.

 

Tell me, why that does not make sense?

 

Now, clearly the pitching, as a whole, was our biggest weakness, but that does not mean it makes zero sense to try and upgrade 2B, and I think their belief was Gio would start 29-33 games, while Sale would start 5-20 games, AND we'd be better at 2B. The idea made sense. The results did not work.

 

I'm not sidestepping anything. I know who we got for Sale has sucked.

I know Sale is having the best season of any SP'er in 2024.

I know Gio has started zero games in 2024.

 

Nobody is disputing we failed on all three levels. That does not change the fact that the attempts made SOME sense, at the time.

 

Easily, one or two of the 3 things I listed might have been different, and this whole debate would never have happened.

 

To me, the biggest shocker of the 3 was the 34 year Sale about to win the Cy Young after 5 straight seasons of let-downs.

The Gio zero starts was an easy 2nd.

Grissom's poor 2024 is a distant 3rd.

 

I'll also add that if DHam and Romy had not shocked the hell out of all of us and replaced the Valdez-Reyes middle infield utility crew, we would be talking about how 2B has been a big reason we are 10 GB the WC race, right now, because we might have been that far back, now.

 

I'm not gonna blame Brez for not knowing DHam was going to do this, either. I mean what was he, our 4th string middle infielder in March?

[Bellhorn04]

Okay, I should have said 2B has been worst or near worst since 2018 NOT 2019.

 

Just because we can win with a horrible 2Bman, does not mean 2B is not important.

 

We sucked at 2B and tried to improve. That is not a bad idea. It just did not work as we expected.

 

The problem as it turns out was that Grissom is still just a prospect, not MLB-ready in the least. His MLB stint in 2023 was horrible.

 

Brez did kind of get scammed on this one.

[mvp 78]

The problem as it turns out was that Grissom is still just a prospect, not MLB-ready in the least. His MLB stint in 2023 was horrible.

 

Brez did kind of get scammed on this one.

 

A lot of jilted lovers on here now. Sad!

[Bellhorn04]

Griss was worse than replacement level in his 23 games last year, .659 OPS, total absence of power, s***** on defense, but yeah, he's your instant solution to 2B for 2024!

[moonslav59]

Griss was worse than replacement level in his 23 games last year, .659 OPS, total absence of power, s***** on defense, but yeah, he's your instant solution to 2B for 2024!

 

His "s***** D" at SS was not supposed to translate to 2B.

 

Yes, he struggled in his second year in the bigs (2023,) but Grissom did look like our best chance at having a decent FT 2Bman for 2024. It did not work out, at all.

[Bellhorn04]

His "s***** D" at SS was not supposed to translate to 2B.

 

Yes, he struggled in his second year in the bigs (2023,) but Grissom did look like our best chance at having a decent FT 2Bman for 2024. It did not work out, at all.

 

He was a minus defender at 2B in his stints with Atlanta too.

 

Of course this move was not about defense. Seems like it was about getting a cheap RH bat.

[moonslav59]

He was a minus defender at 2B in his stints with Atlanta too.

 

Of course this move was not about defense. Seems like it was about getting a cheap RH bat.

 

I do think they felt he'd grow into the 2B position and become decent on D, and better than EValdez, Reyes, Sogard, Westbrook...

[Bellhorn04]

I do think they felt he'd grow into the 2B position and become decent on D, and better than EValdez, Reyes, Sogard, Westbrook...

 

They could also have gotten someone who was actually MLB-ready.

 

The payroll had a lot to do with this ill-advised trade.

[mvp 78]

He was a minus defender at 2B in his stints with Atlanta too.

 

Of course this move was not about defense. Seems like it was about getting a cheap RH bat.

 

He had less than 20 games at 2B in the minors before having to play there as a 21 year old in MLB. Rough transition IMO! Compare it to what we saw out of the first 300 innings from Rafaela at SS. He's been better lately, but he played over 70 games at SS in the minors. Hard to simply say it would not work out at 2B for Vaughn because of how he played in '22. There were conflicting scouting reports, but the one thing that seems clear is that the power is a big question mark that may not come around.

[mvp 78]

I do think they felt he'd grow into the 2B position and become decent on D, and better than EValdez, Reyes, Sogard, Westbrook...

 

Sogard is a better defender than the others you mentioned. I think he wasn't given much of a chance because he's a AAAA low ceiling type guy. If they just wanted defense, Sogard would have been called up in April.

[Bellhorn04]

He had less than 20 games at 2B in the minors before having to play there as a 21 year old in MLB. Rough transition IMO! Compare it to what we saw out of the first 300 innings from Rafaela at SS. He's been better lately, but he played over 70 games at SS in the minors. Hard to simply say it would not work out at 2B for Vaughn because of how he played in '22. There were conflicting scouting reports, but the one thing that seems clear is that the power is a big question mark that may not come around.

 

The defense seems to qualify as a question mark too.

[mvp 78]

The defense seems to qualify as a question mark too.

 

It was in Spring Training. I have not heard any reports about it in AAA. If he's simply not hitting, I don't know if it matters TBH.

[Behindenemylines]

There is a pulse finally. Grissom has begun to hit a little bit for the Woo Sox, but it has been a lost season for him. It is only highlighted with the season that Sale is having.

[Maxbialystock]

On 8/21/2024 at 6:08 PM, moonslav59 said:

 

I'm not "advocating" Grissom. I prefer DHam-Romy at 2B to end the season.

 

I only am arguing that it made sense to want to try and upgrade 2B- our very worst position since 2018: worse than SP1, SP2, SP3, SP4, SP5, RP1-8 and every other position.

 

Tell me, why that does not make sense?

 

Now, clearly the pitching, as a whole, was our biggest weakness, but that does not mean it makes zero sense to try and upgrade 2B, and I think their belief was Gio would start 29-33 games, while Sale would start 5-20 games, AND we'd be better at 2B. The idea made sense. The results did not work.

 

I'm not sidestepping anything. I know who we got for Sale has sucked.

I know Sale is having the best season of any SP'er in 2024.

I know Gio has started zero games in 2024.

 

Nobody is disputing we failed on all three levels. That does not change the fact that the attempts made SOME sense, at the time.

 

Easily, one or two of the 3 things I listed might have been different, and this whole debate would never have happened.

 

To me, the biggest shocker of the 3 was the 34 year Sale about to win the Cy Young after 5 straight seasons of let-downs.

The Gio zero starts was an easy 2nd.

Grissom's poor 2024 is a distant 3rd.

 

I'll also add that if DHam and Romy had not shocked the hell out of all of us and replaced the Valdez-Reyes middle infield utility crew, we would be talking about how 2B has been a big reason we are 10 GB the WC race, right now, because we might have been that far back, now.

 

I'm not gonna blame Brez for not knowing DHam was going to do this, either. I mean what was he, our 4th string middle infielder in March?

Enough.  Let's just agree I'm the pissant and you're the expert.  I don't know the numbers, but my guess is that most double plays for a major league team involve the 2d baseman.  And double plays are a pitcher's best friend.  Good double play tandems need to be artists as well as fielders/throwers because tenths of a second count.  

[moonslav59]

39 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Enough.  Let's just agree I'm the pissant and you're the expert.  I don't know the numbers, but my guess is that most double plays for a major league team involve the 2d baseman.  And double plays are a pitcher's best friend.  Good double play tandems need to be artists as well as fielders/throwers because tenths of a second count.  

I respect your opinions, Max, and I know sometimes you shoot from the hip or out of anger.

I agree that pitching and hitting vastly outrank defense, but a really bad defense can make a difference that good bats and pitching can't overcome.

2024 is proof in the pudding.

Offense: 7th in runs scored (just 4 behind 5th place) 4th in OPS with one of MLB's most balanced line-up, in terms of the least amount of batters below .720 or .690. We are 4th in wOBA. Basically, we are top 5.

Pitching, when taking away the defensive aspect; 10th in xFIP at 4.03 (just 0.05 from 8th,) 9th in SIERA 3.93 (just 0.03 from 8th.) We are 11th in ERA-, but 17th in ERA. That pretty much tells the story of our run prevention. Our pitching is about 10th, while our defense is about 29th or 30th, and that's why the ERA is 17th, not 9th to 11th.

In short, we have a top 5-6 offense and a top 10-11th pitching staff. Why do we have the 14th best record in MLB with those rankings, if defense is not all that important? (Hint: it's not poor baserunning.)