8/21 @ Astros

[Old Red]

2023 Padres

2023 Mets

 

Point taken, but I’m not talking about spending like those two did, or anywhere near it. Bogey was a foolish contract.

[moonslav59]

This is where we disagree. I would say the players, the coaches, and most of the paying customers who pay top dollar want to win now, where you seem to think it can’t be done without sacrifice to the future, which may never turn out that good anyway. I keep saying a good front office to me should be able to win enough to get into the postseason season now, and also build up the farm. To me the Big League club comes first, and to you the farm comes first. To me it should be both at the same time. You’ve bought into the Bloom awesome thing, and it may get there at some point, but then again it may not. It is nowhere near a certainty.

 

I really wish you stop saying things about me that aren't even close to be true.

 

You have never given up reminding me I said you "hated" Cora. I apologized and have not repeated it.

 

I have never come close to saying, implying or thinking Bloom awesome thing.

 

We all know nothing is a certainty, but the best way to rebuild a team is to attempt to greatly improve the farm system. Another way is spending bigly, but that has failed miserably so often, lately, I'm not sure it's a good plan, at all. Plus, JH has obviously decided to limit spending, so whether fans like it or not, what other path does Bloom have?

 

Yes, spend more on pitching- we all agree, despite that plan having a less than 50% hit rate.

[moonslav59]

The very best thing for long term success would have been to tank like the Cubs and Astros did. Would have you have approved of that?

 

It's better than playing it halfway and being frustrated in the "here and now" for 5 years and still look like we are 2-3 years from "going all in."

[moonslav59]

Cubs tanked and then couldn't keep it going.

 

Astros tanked and then turned into a monster.

 

Dodgers never tanked but figured out how to become a monster.

 

Rays did rays things and nobody can figure out how to replicate it.

 

I think the Astros have done a lot of what the Rays do, plus spend more.

 

They do not shy away from losing mega stars, and because they keep winning, there are no crybabies over losing studs morphing the team's strategy and plans.

[moonslav59]

I think the Astros have done a lot of what the Rays do, plus spend more.

 

They do not shy away from losing mega stars, and because they keep winning, there are no crybabies over losing studs morphing the team's strategy and plans.

 

I'm not sure the Astros will sustain this, though. Unlike the Rays, their farm has declined enough whereby the writing is on the wall.

[Old Red]

I really wish you stop saying things about me that aren't even close to be true.

 

You have never given up reminding me I said you "hated" Cora. I apologized and have not repeated it.

 

I have never come close to saying, implying or thinking Bloom awesome thing.

 

We all know nothing is a certainty, but the best way to rebuild a team is to attempt to greatly improve the farm system. Another way is spending bigly, but that has failed miserably so often, lately, I'm not sure it's a good plan, at all. Plus, JH has obviously decided to limit spending, so whether fans like it or not, what other path does Bloom have?

 

Yes, spend more on pitching- we all agree, despite that plan having a less than 50% hit rate.

 

I never been against rebuilding the farm, but I just don’t want it done at the expense of the big league club. I’m not for going out, and spending on these long expensive contracts either even for pitching, but like I said to me a good front office should be able to keep winning enough to get into the postseason, and make the farm better too. Why do you think Cora said it doesn’t matter how many prospects you have, or what your farm ranking is, but what matters most is what you do, or don’t do in October? He been there, and done that as a player, and a manager, and I’m pretty positive he hasn’t been happy with some of the situations, and players Bloom has given him the last two years.

[moonslav59]

I never been against rebuilding the farm, but I just don’t want it done at the expense of the big league club. I’m not for going out, and spending on these long expensive contracts either even for pitching, but like I said to me a good front office should be able to keep winning enough to get into the postseason, and make the farm better too. Why do you think Cora said it doesn’t matter how many prospects you have, or what your farm ranking is, but what matters most is what you do, or don’t do in October? He been there, and done that as a player, and a manager, and I’m pretty positive he hasn’t been happy with some of the situations, and players Bloom has given him the last two years.

 

You are misrepresenting Cora's view. Yes, he said the playoffs and making them is the top priority, but making them can be achieved several ways.

 

I get the argument about wanting to win now, but if the owner is not allowing you to spend enough to win, whay play it half way? Go for the future 100%. That's my opinion, and a minority one, for sure.

 

BTW, every time, except maybe 2004, we won a ring, it was due in large part to homegrown players. 2018 was largely about them and trading others.

 

I don't blame Cora for being unhappy or wishing we made more deadline deals as buyers. His job is to win, now.

 

Bloom's job is more complex and is largely driven by what the ownership group sets as the top priorities.

 

[Old Red]

You are misrepresenting Cora's view. Yes, he said the playoffs and making them is the top priority, but making them can be achieved several ways.

 

I get the argument about wanting to win now, but if the owner is not allowing you to spend enough to win, whay play it half way? Go for the future 100%. That's my opinion, and a minority one, for sure.

 

BTW, every time, except maybe 2004, we won a ring, it was due in large part to homegrown players. 2018 was largely about them and trading others.

 

I don't blame Cora for being unhappy or wishing we made more deadline deals as buyers. His job is to win, now.

 

Bloom's job is more complex and is largely driven by what the ownership group sets as the top priorities.

 

Cora mentioned prospects, and the farm system, and said it doesn’t matter how many you have, or the ranking. I don’t think I was misinterpreting what he was saying at all.

[moonslav59]

Cora mentioned prospects, and the farm system, and said it doesn’t matter how many you have, or the ranking. I don’t think I was misinterpreting what he was saying at all.

 

You really think Cora thinks how many good prospects doesn't matter?

[Old Red]

You really think Cora thinks how many good prospects doesn't matter?

 

He was talking about in the moment, and nothing else. Not the 2024 Red Sox, or the 2025 Red Sox, or beyond. The 2023 Red Sox are what’s important to Cora, the players, and coaches, and I’m sure lots of fans too.

[moonslav59]

He was talking about in the moment, and nothing else. Not the 2024 Red Sox, or the 2025 Red Sox, or beyond. The 2023 Red Sox are what’s important to Cora, the players, and coaches, and I’m sure lots of fans too.

 

He never said the farm did not matter. Your summarization of what he said is not his whole position.

 

I get it. He said something you agreed with, and as you always say when you find such a quote, "He knows more than we do."

[vegasbob]

You really think Cora thinks how many good prospects doesn't matter?

 

Red and Moon, it should be clear to all that Alex Cora and Chaim Bloom, and as a result JH, have very different perspectives on the purpose of operating an MLB operation.

 

Henry needs to preserve and enhance the overall value of the franchise for him, his partners and the Fenway Sports Group. The Red Sox are a near monopoly business especially in New England with a substantial national following. In the click bait age, it is more important to keep the team relevant and talked about . Relatively small fluctuations in attendance and NESN viewership are not the biggest deals to JH . He and Lerner do not pay their bills from Red Sox revenues, but I would wager that the business now has positive cash flow with the reduced payroll.

 

Chaim Bloom has a far longer outlook and career aspirations, so he is taking the 5 year outlook, executing JH's broad directives and not wanting to make a mistake . I doubt he has ever be3en told, better win it all this year or your done. I honetly don't know his true baseball acumen or the strengths of anyone below him. Despite being intelligent, I don't see him as a real leader, more of a committee consensus guy . There are arguments that this approach makes everyone feel ok until the business folds, but that isn't going to happen. Until Chaim is pressured to win , he will tread a steady Eddy, middle road , cost efficient path. His time in Tampa tells him that it can work , so he is staying with what he knows.

 

AC, on the other hand, gets paid for and retained as manager for winning now , while having been extended through 2024 giving him some financial security. Cora come with an extensive baseball field knowledge from years of working his way up. Personally, I do not think he and Bloom could be more opposite personalities or experiences. I suspect the rumors occasionally of some friction are real . Given his own history, Cora probably does not want to be disruptive and cause an organizational showdown . But he probably hates some of the situations he has been put in this year by the roster moves . The judgement on Cora should be limited to how much production and wins he can get out of a team with many injuries, a marginal starting rotation and streaky hitters. The defensive miscues are almost inexplicable and not sure how AC can improve that except for clearly playing guys out of position.

 

So 3 protagonists , all with different motives and means to affect the outcomes. If it were my call, I'd keep Cora more than Bloom , but he would have splaining to do.

[Old Red]

He never said the farm did not matter. Your summarization of what he said is not his whole position.

 

I get it. He said something you agreed with, and as you always say when you find such a quote, "He knows more than we do."

Cora said exactly it doesn’t matter how many prospects you have, or what the farm rankings are.Followed by what matters most is what you do in October. I interpreted that as meaning in the here, and now, and taking a little shot at Bloom.

[moonslav59]

Red and Moon, it should be clear to all that Alex Cora and Chaim Bloom, and as a result JH, have very different perspectives on the purpose of operating an MLB operation.

 

Henry needs to preserve and enhance the overall value of the franchise for him, his partners and the Fenway Sports Group. The Red Sox are a near monopoly business especially in New England with a substantial national following. In the click bait age, it is more important to keep the team relevant and talked about . Relatively small fluctuations in attendance and NESN viewership are not the biggest deals to JH . He and Lerner do not pay their bills from Red Sox revenues, but I would wager that the business now has positive cash flow with the reduced payroll.

 

Chaim Bloom has a far longer outlook and career aspirations, so he is taking the 5 year outlook, executing JH's broad directives and not wanting to make a mistake . I doubt he has ever be3en told, better win it all this year or your done. I honetly don't know his true baseball acumen or the strengths of anyone below him. Despite being intelligent, I don't see him as a real leader, more of a committee consensus guy . There are arguments that this approach makes everyone feel ok until the business folds, but that isn't going to happen. Until Chaim is pressured to win , he will tread a steady Eddy, middle road , cost efficient path. His time in Tampa tells him that it can work , so he is staying with what he knows.

 

AC, on the other hand, gets paid for and retained as manager for winning now , while having been extended through 2024 giving him some financial security. Cora come with an extensive baseball field knowledge from years of working his way up. Personally, I do not think he and Bloom could be more opposite personalities or experiences. I suspect the rumors occasionally of some friction are real . Given his own history, Cora probably does not want to be disruptive and cause an organizational showdown . But he probably hates some of the situations he has been put in this year by the roster moves . The judgement on Cora should be limited to how much production and wins he can get out of a team with many injuries, a marginal starting rotation and streaky hitters. The defensive miscues are almost inexplicable and not sure how AC can improve that except for clearly playing guys out of position.

 

So 3 protagonists , all with different motives and means to affect the outcomes. If it were my call, I'd keep Cora more than Bloom , but he would have splaining to do.

 

All of this is clear to me, although I would word some parts differently.

 

It doesn't change my opinion that playing it halfway loses the hear and now crowd and the futures crowd. I get why they do it.

 

Unlike Red and others, I don't blame Bloom for JH setting the priorities in such a way that playing it halfway is about all Bloom can do. They can wish away that JH should spend more money and make the "live in the moment" crowd happy, but it's clear he is not doing that.

 

They can wish we get a new owner all they want, but I'm still thrilled he is our owner.

 

I happen to think we will reach the higher ground, someday, but I guess patience is not a virtue, anymore.

 

I know nothing is a certainty, but building the farm up is a good start to helping make the odds better we get there. Until the management group decides to spend like they want to win t all, I'm sticking to the idea of building the farm up is better than this halfway crap. I'm not trying to convince anyone to feel like I do. I fully understand how and why most want their pleasures now.

[moonslav59]

Cora said exactly it doesn’t matter how many prospects you have, or what the farm rankings are.Followed by what matters most is what you do in October. I interpreted that as meaning in the here, and now, and taking a little shot at Bloom.

 

You take one quote and think that is all of his opinion.

 

Plus, you take his quote out of context, as always.

 

"We're in a good place, but at the end of the day, the place that we like is to play in October. It's not about how many prospects you have or where your farm system is. It might be No. 1 or 30th or whatever. The one that really counts is how many games you win in October and how many games you play in October. That's what we're shooting for."

 

Yes, when you are playing in October, it doesn't matter where you rank or how many prospects you have. That does not imply that the number of prospects or the farm ranking does not matter. It doesn't even come close to implying that, unless you have faulty reasoning and comprehension skills.

 

Obviously, Cora thought this year's team was good enough to warrant making some deadline deals to get us to October, but to suggest he thinks it doesn't matter how many prospects we have, is total BS.

 

I can find more quotes like this....

 

“At one point, (Bryan Mata) is gonna be part of this and he’s gonna help us to win a few games," Cora told MassLive's Chris Cotillo.

 

Sounds like he doesn't care about how many we have and wanted to trade Mata, right? That's about how your reasoning sounds to me.

[Old Red]

All of this is clear to me, although I would word some parts differently.

 

It doesn't change my opinion that playing it halfway loses the hear and now crowd and the futures crowd. I get why they do it.

 

Unlike Red and others, I don't blame Bloom for JH setting the priorities in such a way that playing it halfway is about all Bloom can do. They can wish away that JH should spend more money and make the "live in the moment" crowd happy, but it's clear he is not doing that.

 

They can wish we get a new owner all they want, but I'm still thrilled he is our owner.

 

I happen to think we will reach the higher ground, someday, but I guess patience is not a virtue, anymore.

 

I know nothing is a certainty, but building the farm up is a good start to helping make the odds better we get there. Until the management group decides to spend like they want to win t all, I'm sticking to the idea of building the farm up is better than this halfway crap. I'm not trying to convince anyone to feel like I do. I fully understand how and why most want their pleasures now.

Did JH tell Bloom to stay over the tax line last year, and in the process end up with a losing last place in the Div finish, and out of the playoffs? No one knows for sure what JH has told Bloom what he can, or can not do when it comes to the payroll. You’ve been counting right down to the penny the last two years on how much the Red Sox had to spend. I asked this past offseason on who said the Red Sox were going to spend up to the tax line. They didn’t.

[Old Red]

You take one quote and think that is all of his opinion.

 

Plus, you take his quote out of context, as always.

 

"We're in a good place, but at the end of the day, the place that we like is to play in October. It's not about how many prospects you have or where your farm system is. It might be No. 1 or 30th or whatever. The one that really counts is how many games you win in October and how many games you play in October. That's what we're shooting for."

 

Yes, when you are playing in October, it doesn't matter where you rank or how many prospects you have. That does not imply that the number of prospects or the farm ranking does not matter. It doesn't even come close to implying that, unless you have faulty reasoning and comprehension skills.

 

Obviously, Cora thought this year's team was good enough to warrant making some deadline deals to get us to October, but to suggest he thinks it doesn't matter how many prospects we have, is total BS.

 

I can find more quotes like this....

 

“At one point, (Bryan Mata) is gonna be part of this and he’s gonna help us to win a few games," Cora told MassLive's Chris Cotillo.

 

Sounds like he doesn't care about how many we have and wanted to trade Mata, right? That's about how your reasoning sounds to me.

We’ve disagreed enough on this, and we just have a different interpretation.

[moonslav59]

Did JH tell Bloom to stay over the tax line last year, and in the process end up with a losing last place in the Div finish, and out of the playoffs? No one knows for sure what JH has told Bloom what he can, or can not do when it comes to the payroll. You’ve been counting right down to the penny the last two years on how much the Red Sox had to spend. I asked this past offseason on who said the Red Sox were going to spend up to the tax line. They didn’t.

 

Not sure what this has to do with my post.

 

BTW, we did spend a lot, this past winter and added salary at the deadline.

 

I did expect we'd get closer, but the botched tax line issue last year, which apparently was not Bloom's doing, but who knows, really didn't matter, because we stayed under, this year and were not going over, even if we stayed under, last year. IMO.

 

I bring up the amount we "can spend" to highlight what we could do or could have done.

 

I'm not sure if it's Bloom's choice to leave a few million on the table or his higher ups. I expect it's not Bloom's call on what the budget is.

 

BTW, I was for a major sell-off- even getting Bogey to agree to waive his no trade, if possible. I'm just not going to blame Bloom for something I don't know was his doing, unlike you and others.

 

If I found out, he talked JH and others into not selling, I'd be roasting him like you do.

[moonslav59]

We’ve disagreed enough on this, and we just have a different interpretation.

 

So, you do think Bloom doesn't care how many prospects we have?

 

If yes, it's not an interpretation. It's a wrong position. Totally wrong.

[Old Red]

Not sure what this has to do with my post.

 

BTW, we did spend a lot, this past winter and added salary at the deadline.

 

I did expect we'd get closer, but the botched tax line issue last year, which apparently was not Bloom's doing, but who knows, really didn't matter, because we stayed under, this year and were not going over, even if we stayed under, last year. IMO.

 

I bring up the amount we "can spend" to highlight what we could do or could have done.

 

I'm not sure if it's Bloom's choice to leave a few million on the table or his higher ups. I expect it's not Bloom's call on what the budget is.

 

BTW, I was for a major sell-off- even getting Bogey to agree to waive his no trade, if possible. I'm just not going to blame Bloom for something I don't know was his doing, unlike you and others.

 

If I found out, he talked JH and others into not selling, I'd be roasting him like you do.

The botched tax line last year wasn’t Bloom’s doing? If it wasn’t then whose was it, and how do you know? I don’t believe Bogey would have waved his no trade last year either. If you don’t know what was Bloom’s doing then why defend him either?

[moonslav59]

The botched tax line last year wasn’t Bloom’s doing? If it wasn’t then whose was it, and how do you know? I don’t believe Bogey would have waved his no trade last year either. If you don’t know what was Bloom’s doing then why defend him either?

 

You make no sense.

 

When you blame Bloom for having devers and Casas on th roster, when they are both DD guys, I know about that. I don't see it as defending Bloom to point out they have nothing to do with Bloom. I see it as correcting a misconception you have and you propensity to blame Bloom for everything, even things beyong his control or mostly out of his control.

 

I thought it was Bloom's fault for going over the tax line all along and blamed him for it, until someone mentioned, someone else claimed responsibility for the mistake, so now I am not sure. I'm fully ready to blame Bloom, if he was the one at fault. I can't find a story on Google, so I'm fine with bashing Bloom on that mistake, for now.

[Old Red]

So, you do think Bloom doesn't care how many prospects we have?

 

If yes, it's not an interpretation. It's a wrong position. Totally wrong.

Now this makes no sense. The debate has been about Cora’s comments on the prospects, farm ranking, and playing in October, and what he meant. I also believe the comments were directed to Bloom, and telling him the team need help now.

[moonslav59]

Now this makes no sense. The debate has been about Cora’s comments on the prospects, farm ranking, and playing in October, and what he meant. I also believe the comments were directed to Bloom, and telling him the team need help now.

 

You misquoted him, took it out of context, then moved the goalposts.

 

Typical.

 

Cora does not think prospects don't matter. You think that is what he said and means.

[Old Red]

You misquoted him, took it out of context, then moved the goalposts.

 

Typical.

 

Cora does not think prospects don't matter. You think that is what he said and means.

 

You do not know what Cora meant when he made those comments, or who it was directed at, so to say I took it out of context could be 100% wrong, and I may be right in my interpretation. Unlike you I’m not saying you are wrong, but I’m not saying you are right either. I have heard others have the same interpretation I have unlike the interpretation that you have.

[moonslav59]

You do not know what Cora meant when he made those comments, or who it was directed at, so to say I took it out of context could be 100% wrong, and I may be right in my interpretation. Unlike you I’m not saying you are wrong, but I’m not saying you are right either. I have heard others have the same interpretation I have unlike the interpretation that you have.

 

I read his whole quote, and I did not shorten it to make it sound like what you wanted it to sound like.

 

Why would others who think prospects "do not matter" mean anything to anyone but you?

[moonslav59]

You do not know what Cora meant when he made those comments, or who it was directed at, so to say I took it out of context could be 100% wrong, and I may be right in my interpretation. Unlike you I’m not saying you are wrong, but I’m not saying you are right either. I have heard others have the same interpretation I have unlike the interpretation that you have.

 

He never said "it doesn't matter how many prospects you have, or what the farm rankings are."

[Tedballgame]

Is Whitlock going to suck again tonight?

[moonslav59]

Is Whitlock going to suck again tonight?

 

No.