2023 Free Agents

[notin]

2020 was a 60 game season in a global pandemic. If it had continued into 2021 then you might be able to call it a cliff. But it didn't.

 

The Cliff started in 2019 when the Sox fell 24 games in the standings…

[moonslav59]

2020 was just one of 5 last place finishes since 2012. We can't even call it an outlier.

 

Who is?

 

All I'm saying was that it was predictable. I'm so sure those others were, but call them "valleys," too, if you wish.

[mvp 78]

The Cliff started in 2019 when the Sox fell 24 games in the standings…

 

LOL, no.

[mvp 78]

2020 was just one of 5 last place finishes since 2012. We can't even call it an outlier.

 

The real cliff was 2011!

[mvp 78]

Part of the whole idea of an impending cliff was over the budget situation, and dumping Betts and Price was part of the situation at hand after 2019. We cut about $60M from 2019. If that is not a re-write of the team, what is?

 

Trading Mookie was the cliff.

[notin]

LOL, no.

 

The Sox had a slew of expensive veterans declining, no cheap help from below and got 24 games worse. People said this would happen for 3 years. And then it did.

 

And the whole way down, did you deny they were getting worse?

[Bellhorn04]

Who is?

 

All I'm saying was that it was predictable. I'm so sure those others were, but call them "valleys," too, if you wish.

 

So you're saying that it was predictable that the Sox would have a bad 60 games in 2020 and then bounce back and make the playoffs in 2021. OK...

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox had a slew of expensive veterans declining, no cheap help from below and got 24 games worse. People said this would happen for 3 years. And then it did.

 

And the whole way down, did you deny they were getting worse?

 

Did you expect the 2019 team to be 24 games worse than the 2018 team at the start of the season?

[moonslav59]

Trading Mookie was the cliff.

 

And, we saw the budget crunch coming as part of why there would be a cliff.

 

Remember, Price was also dumped, and he was a big part of 2018.

[Bellhorn04]

The word cliff makes no sense whatsoever in this context. Going off a cliff means you're dead, unless you're Wile E. Coyote.

[moonslav59]

So you're saying that it was predictable that the Sox would have a bad 60 games in 2020 and then bounce back and make the playoffs in 2021. OK...

 

It was predictable we'd suck badly in 2020, no matter how many games were played. Sure, we'd have done better with Sale and ERod, but the rest of the team was relatively healthy.

 

A serious down point was predicted and occurred. No amount of revisionist history will change that fact.

 

To your other point, no I did not think 2019 would be the start of the cliff, but it turned out to be a strong sign it was about to hit the fan.

 

It wasn't just the fact that all we got from our farm after Devers in 2017 was Houck, Dalbec and Duran. It was also about the severe budget crunch we knew would happen, due to so many star players nearing free agency and a lot of big contracts already on the books- such as Sale, Bogey, JD and Nate after 2019.

 

To me, it was obvious. To others, apparently not.

 

I will say, I thought the down part would be longer than 1 year, but I guess one could call 2021 a fluke and say it has been 3 years long, already (2020-2022.) To those who denied the cliff by saying all we need to do is rebuild the farm, they were right, but they were wrong about the time it takes to do so, plus the delay time before seeing actual big results.

 

If it wasn't for Bloom's acquisition of Whitlock, we'd be looking at newcomers Bello and Casas as the only young, homegrown impact players on the team, except for maybe Houck. How could there not be a cliff (or serious downturn, if you dislike that term) with that farm impact and a tightening budget?

 

[moonslav59]

The word cliff makes no sense whatsoever in this context. Going off a cliff means you're dead, unless you're Wile E. Coyote.

 

2020 was Wile E. Coyote.

[mvp 78]

The Sox had a slew of expensive veterans declining, no cheap help from below and got 24 games worse. People said this would happen for 3 years. And then it did.

 

And the whole way down, did you deny they were getting worse?

 

They were declining, but still ended up in the ALCS in 2021 after going over the cliff?

[mvp 78]

So you're saying that it was predictable that the Sox would have a bad 60 games in 2020 and then bounce back and make the playoffs in 2021. OK...

 

The cliff forced Bloom to go with a 3 man rotation and fill the pen with AAA guys.

[mvp 78]

And, we saw the budget crunch coming as part of why there would be a cliff.

 

Remember, Price was also dumped, and he was a big part of 2018.

 

2.4 fWAR. I don't see many people adding Porcello to the cliff talk here. That was his fWAR too in 2018.

[moonslav59]

2.4 fWAR. I don't see many people adding Porcello to the cliff talk here. That was his fWAR too in 2018.

 

What's your point?

 

Did some fans think he was under team control for 4 more years and would keep pitching well for us and help prevent the cliff?

[Bellhorn04]

They were declining, but still ended up in the ALCS in 2021 after going over the cliff?

 

Yeah, that's one of the things that doesn't make sense about this cliff.

 

It was just a little cliff, I guess.

 

Mountains out of molehills, as the saying goes.

[mvp 78]

Yeah, that's one of the things that doesn't make sense about this cliff.

 

It was just a little cliff, I guess.

 

Mountains out of molehills, as the saying goes.

 

Seems like the bigger cliff would have been 2022 after all these FA's left including Xander? Everything prior to 2022 should have been still in the window.

[mvp 78]

What's your point?

 

Did some fans think he was under team control for 4 more years and would keep pitching well for us and help prevent the cliff?

 

You are saying the loss of Price and Mookie's 60M and their contribution was the cliff. The money is just the money. Price's onfield contribution wasn't all that great TBH.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, that's one of the things that doesn't make sense about this cliff.

 

It was just a little cliff, I guess.

 

Mountains out of molehills, as the saying goes.

 

Certainly, most posters who predicted a cliff expected more than 1 year, but just because there was only one year that could be called a fluke occurred in between 2 bad years, doesn't mean the whole idea was entirely wrong.

 

Some of us predicted tough times ahead- other denied it.

[moonslav59]

You are saying the loss of Price and Mookie's 60M and their contribution was the cliff. The money is just the money. Price's onfield contribution wasn't all that great TBH.

 

No. I'm saying many of us knew the roster was in trouble and there would be budget cuts that would force us to lose some of the few good players left over.

 

Bloom, or whoever, chose to dump 2 players not 3-4, so yes, the pending budget cuts played into the belief that a cliff was coming- not just declining talent and a near barren farm.

Edited November 17, 2022 by moonslav59

[notin]

Did you expect the 2019 team to be 24 games worse than the 2018 team at the start of the season?

 

No but I expected the team to get worse quickly at some point as Price and Sale aged and no pitching on the horizon to pick up the slack…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

No. I'm saying many of us knew the roster was in trouble and there would be budget cuts that would force us to lose some of the few good players left over.

 

Bloom, or whoever, choice to dump 2 players not 3-4, so yes, the pending budget cuts played into the belief that a cliff was coming- not just declining talent and a near barren farm.

 

He was also the first GM/CBO/GRS (Guy Running Show) in my over half-a-century as a fan to say, after trading his best player, "We're not going to be as good this year."

 

It was his first months on the job. Has he ever been so admittedly transparent since?

[Bellhorn04]

Certainly, most posters who predicted a cliff expected more than 1 year, but just because there was only one year that could be called a fluke occurred in between 2 bad years, doesn't mean the whole idea was entirely wrong.

 

Some of us predicted tough times ahead- other denied it.

 

Why does 2021 have to be called a fluke?

 

And couldn't 2022 have been better if Bloom made better moves?

 

You're basically bending things to fit your narrative.

[mvp 78]

Certainly, most posters who predicted a cliff expected more than 1 year, but just because there was only one year that could be called a fluke occurred in between 2 bad years, doesn't mean the whole idea was entirely wrong.

 

Some of us predicted tough times ahead- other denied it.

 

But you were wrong since the team was really good in 2021. You can't just dismiss 2021 as a fluke because it doesn't fit your narrative.

[moonslav59]

Why does 2021 have to be called a fluke?

 

And couldn't 2022 have been better if Bloom made better moves?

 

You're basically bending things to fit your narrative.

 

It doesn't. I said it could be viewed as such, especially after we saw what happened in 2022. To few injuries in '21 or too many in '22- maybe it was not fluke.

 

Maybe the cliff was just 1 year, and we were wrong about the length of the cliff.

 

One thing is for certain, if the cliff was just one year long, it wasn't because we rebuilt the farm overnight like many cliff deniers claimed we could do.

[moonslav59]

But you were wrong since the team was really good in 2021. You can't just dismiss 2021 as a fluke because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

Again, I did not. I said it "COULD" be called...

 

It's funny how some bring up our feelings before 2019 as evidence 2019 was not the start of the cliff, but how we felt before 2021 matters little.

[moonslav59]

But you were wrong since the team was really good in 2021. You can't just dismiss 2021 as a fluke because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

How many times do I need to say we were wrong about the length?

 

I did bring up that 2022 could be called part of the cliff, if you can view 2021 as a fluke- like many viewed 2013, but I never said that is fact.

[mvp 78]

Again, I did not. I said it "COULD" be called...

 

It's funny how some bring up our feelings before 2019 as evidence 2019 was not the start of the cliff, but how we felt before 2021 matters little.

 

On one hand you say things like "some of use predicted tough times ahead" and couch it with 2021 being a fluke year stuck between 2020 and 2022.

 

However, you also said:

 

The season is about to start and the roster is just about set.

 

A wild and crazy winter has reshuffled the deck for a lot of teams, but they Sox remain in the mix for a playoff slot and possibly more, if more goes right than wrong.

 

I'm projecting the AL East as such:

 

94 TOR

92 BOS

 

 

C'mon man...

 

You can't say you predicted "tough times" but then have your own Realistic View Part II thread state a prediction of 92 wins for 2022... At least stick with the same argument.

 

The cliff WAS 2020 for you. Bloom used magic and wits to get back to the ALCS in 2021. The cliff is gone... You said so last offseason. If there is poor performance now, it's due to Bloom and not due to the cliff...

[moonslav59]

Why does 2021 have to be called a fluke?

 

And couldn't 2022 have been better if Bloom made better moves?

 

You're basically bending things to fit your narrative.

 

I don't see it that way. I admitted I was wrong about the length of the cliff, but I knew we were not going to see the farm rebuilt overnight. We won in 2021 due to amazingly good health, outlier years by Bobby Dee and others, and some decent moves by Bloom. It was unexpected- much like the drop in 2019 was, and many argue we cannot view that as part of the cliff, because expectations were high before '19.

 

Why do the poor expectations prior to 2021 not count for anything?