How would you use Whitlock next year?

[Old Red]

I agree that the closer is just part of the bullpen. But the closer is the leader, the linchpin of the pen. People get too hung up on the save stat. To me a save means that you won the game. And winning the game is the objective.

 

The closer is still the closer, and I think having a good one is more important than most. I know the Red Sox tried to get through the postseason last year without one, but really how many good teams do you see without a good closer? When I said to label the rest of the BP anyway you want I was referring to the setup 6,7, and 8 innings guy. I know it’s good that Whitlock can go more than 1 inning, but then you loose him for another 2-3 days, which doesn’t make sense to me. I haven’t heard Cora use relief aces, so I’ll just keep the setup guys to describe them.

[Bellhorn04]

The closer is still the closer, and I think having a good one is more important than most. I know the Red Sox tried to get through the postseason last year without one, but really how many good teams do you see without a good closer? When I said to label the rest of the BP anyway you want I was referring to the setup 6,7, and 8 innings guy. I know it’s good that Whitlock can go more than 1 inning, but then you loose him for another 2-3 days, which doesn’t make sense to me.

 

Whitlock pitched 2 innings on Aug 12, and got a 9th inning, 1 inning save on Aug 14.

He pitched 2 innings on Aug 24, and got a 9th inning, 1 inning save on Aug 26.

[notin]

Good points.

 

We obviously need to make serious additions to next year's pen, but I'd feel fine pencilling him in to a high leverage slot on the off season charts. We just need others added.

 

Houck, Whitlock, Schreiber is a nice core to build on. If Taylor can get healthy, maybe we have 4. Perhaps someone like German, Crawford, Winckowski or Murphy can give us a surprise boost from the farm, but we should not count on more than 4 from what we carry over from 2022.

 

Barnes will also very likely be back.

 

I think just add two from Michael Fulmer, Rafael Montero, and Blake Treinen. I am assuming Taylor comes back. And that there will be at least one rookie (Kelly? German?) in the bullpen..,

[Old Red]

Whitlock pitched 2 innings on Aug 12, and got a 9th inning, 1 inning save on Aug 14.

He pitched 2 innings on Aug 24, and got a 9th inning, 1 inning save on Aug 26.

 

Yes I know, but the small sample size example. Could he do this all year? I want someone if needed that could pitch 3 out of 4 days. One inning saves with an occasional 4 out save is the ideal closer. Then you need a couple of set up guys, and a couple of long relief.

[jacksonianmarch]

I actually think the guy the sox will go after is Zach Britton. He should come cheap, he has closer's experience and should be close to 18 months post TJ procedure when you hit pitchers and catchers. He's a guy you "add to the mix" and name as closer if he looks good in ST. Remember, Bloom is a value guy. He isnt gonna go after the guys who will come at a premium

[moonslav59]

Barnes will also very likely be back.

 

I think just add two from Michael Fulmer, Rafael Montero, and Blake Treinen. I am assuming Taylor comes back. And that there will be at least one rookie (Kelly? German?) in the bullpen..,

 

Barnes will be back, but I'd only count on having 4 quality slots carry over. Taylor and barnes can fight over the 4th slot. We should plan accordingly, which to me, means adding 2 solid pen arms and not 2 Diekman's. Strahm worked our okay, but Im hoping for better than 2 Strahms, too.

[moonslav59]

I actually think the guy the sox will go after is Zach Britton. He should come cheap, he has closer's experience and should be close to 18 months post TJ procedure when you hit pitchers and catchers. He's a guy you "add to the mix" and name as closer if he looks good in ST. Remember, Bloom is a value guy. He isnt gonna go after the guys who will come at a premium

 

As soon as we sign him and he goes on the IL, you'll be laughing at us.

[notin]

Barnes will be back, but I'd only count on having 4 quality slots carry over. Taylor and barnes can fight over the 4th slot. We should plan accordingly, which to me, means adding 2 solid pen arms and not 2 Diekman's. Strahm worked our okay, but Im hoping for better than 2 Strahms, too.

 

Barring the very legitimate concern over health issues, it’s more likely Barnes and Taylor are both back. The only way this doesn’t happen is of the Sox can move Barnes in a contract swap or simply DFA him.

 

But even if Barnes gets DFAd, it won’t be because Taylor was healthy…

[Bellhorn04]

Barring the very legitimate concern over health issues, it’s more likely Barnes and Taylor are both back. The only way this doesn’t happen is of the Sox can move Barnes in a contract swap or simply DFA him.

 

But even if Barnes gets DFAd, it won’t be because Taylor was healthy…

 

How is a Barnes DFA in the conversation?

[Old Red]

How is a Barnes DFA in the conversation?

 

Barnes is not as good as he once was when he got his extension, but he is better than some.

[moonslav59]

Barring the very legitimate concern over health issues, it’s more likely Barnes and Taylor are both back. The only way this doesn’t happen is of the Sox can move Barnes in a contract swap or simply DFA him.

 

But even if Barnes gets DFAd, it won’t be because Taylor was healthy…

 

Saying I'd only count on 4, doesn't mean get rid of everyone else.

 

We need to plan the ML roster like we have only 4 guys we can count on, add 2 more and use the rest as most teams use them: mop up or low leverage RP'er. Barnes or Taylor, plus guys like Danish, German and failed starters might be those guys, or they might rise up and take the place of someone ahead of them.

[jacksonianmarch]

As soon as we sign him and he goes on the IL, you'll be laughing at us.

 

He was pretty durable until his elbow exploded

[moonslav59]

He was pretty durable until his elbow exploded

 

You will laugh, though.

[Old Red]

He was pretty durable until his elbow exploded

 

That’s what exploded his elbow.

[Bellhorn04]

The way Cora used Whitlock last night was a perfect example of the relief ace concept, pitching the 7th and 8th instead of the 9th. (Obviously not one of his better outings this time.)

 

Part of the strategy is that it gives your team 2 innings to tack onto the lead so the 9th inning is easier for the closer, or you don't need your closer at all.

[Maxbialystock]

The closer is still the closer, and I think having a good one is more important than most. I know the Red Sox tried to get through the postseason last year without one, but really how many good teams do you see without a good closer? When I said to label the rest of the BP anyway you want I was referring to the setup 6,7, and 8 innings guy. I know it’s good that Whitlock can go more than 1 inning, but then you loose him for another 2-3 days, which doesn’t make sense to me. I haven’t heard Cora use relief aces, so I’ll just keep the setup guys to describe them.

 

There is absolutely no evidence the Sox needed a closer in the 2021 postseason. No one on Talksox can disprove that. I will readily admit, however, that Uehara was absolutely needed and magnificent in the 2013 postseason.

 

Kimbrel falls in between. He had a great 2018 season with 47 (?) saves, but his postseason ERA was 5.91. He got 6 saves because Cora stayed with him--and he finally came around.

 

Whitlock has the repertoire of a starter. When he is on, which is usually, he can eat innings. Most closers rely on two pitches--this was absolutely true of Uehara (slow fastball, nasty splitter, great command, and tons of guts) and Kimbrel (upper 90's fastball and great knuckle curve). Consequently, they tend to pitch just the 9th--and then only when it's a close game and the Sox hopefully have the lead (many closers will pitch the 9th in a tie game).

 

Also this, which I don't mind admitting. Last night it was clear Barnes wanted to be anywhere but on that mound. If allowed to, he would have taken 5 minutes between pitches. It was so bad that, after getting an out and putting 2 men on base (one on a walk), Cora--not the pitching coach, but Cora-jogged out there and bucked him up enough so that he would at least the ball and try to throw strikes. Anyway, my admission is that most relievers don't have the temperament to close. We saw that in Barnes last even though he closed with ease in the first half of last season. I'm not yet sure of Whitlock's temperament.

 

I'm not saying Whitlock shouldn't or couldn't close, but am saying I lean toward more innings as a starter or two inning reliever, including closing when the situation merits it.

[moonslav59]

So much of RP'ing and even closing is a near total crapshoot.

 

The Sox went into 2018 totally prepared at closer. For much of 2018, there was no hint we needed help. Then, the wheels come off, but somehow Kimbrel bailed out the cesspool he filled to the brim with his bare hands. DD was a genius. Remember the talk on this board about leaving Kelly off the playoff roster. Yeah, we know better than Cora & the GM, right!

 

Then, you take 2013, where we ended up using our 3rd string RP'er as closer after failures and injuries to Bailey and Hanrahan- two guys Ben traded for to "shore up" the closer's job, yeah right!, but we end up with the best 2-3 year closer stretch any team has ever seen.

 

You plan and it works, then doesn't work, and then, somehow, we came out smelling like roses both times. Good job, GM, we say.

 

LMAO!

 

[Maxbialystock]

So much of RP'ing and even closing is a near total crapshoot.

 

The Sox went into 2018 totally prepared at closer. For much of 2018, there was no hint we needed help. Then, the wheels come off, but somehow Kimbrel bailed out the cesspool he filled to the brim with his bare hands. DD was a genius. Remember the talk on this board about leaving Kelly off the playoff roster. Yeah, we know better than Cora & the GM, right!

 

Then, you take 2013, where we ended up using our 3rd string RP'er as closer after failures and injuries to Bailey and Hanrahan- two guys Ben traded for to "shore up" the closer's job, yeah right!, but we end up with the best 2-3 year closer stretch any team has ever seen.

 

You plan and it works, then doesn't work, and then, somehow, we came out smelling like roses both times. Good job, GM, we say.

 

LMAO!

 

 

I forgot at least half of that. Very well said. Crapshoot is a far better explanation than my lengthy posts.

[dgalehouse]

The top tier of closers have a success rate of nearly 90%. Not exactly a crapshoot.

[moonslav59]

The top tier of closers have a success rate of nearly 90%. Not exactly a crapshoot.

 

I did not say top closers are a crapshoot. I said planning for the closer position often turns out like a crapshoot, with 2018 and 2013 as prime examples.

 

The "crappy plan" (Bailey/Hanrahan) worked out way better than the "master plan" (Kimbrel).

[Bellhorn04]

The relief ace concept is simply based on the idea that the best way in which to use your best reliever in a particular game might not be to wait until you have a lead in the 9th.

 

Terry Francona was probably one of the first managers to get on board with the idea. I already mentioned Andrew Miller in 2016.

 

But a much earlier example was how he used Keith Foulke in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. He brought Foulke in in the 7th inning with the Sox losing 4-3. Foulke went on to pitch 2.2 scoreless innings.

 

And the rest is history.

[Bellhorn04]

Two shaky RELIEF ACE outings in a row by Whitlock.

 

Maybe the RELIEF ACE role is too big of an ask over the long haul, I don't know. It's not like there are a bunch of guys who have done it for a number of years.

[notin]

Two shaky RELIEF ACE outings in a row by Whitlock.

 

Maybe the RELIEF ACE role is too big of an ask over the long haul, I don't know. It's not like there are a bunch of guys who have done it for a number of years.

 

 

As of now, Schreiber is the relief ace. He’s the guy who closed out a shaky Barnes save and the guy who came in the day before with the bases loaded and no one out. That Whitlock gave up 3 runs had nothing to do with “relief ace” as he came in with a 5 run lead.

 

Whitlock is another arm approaching a career high in IP. He’ll have bad outings now and then. And it’s possible these outings are cementing just future in the bullpen…

[notin]

The relief ace concept is simply based on the idea that the best way in which to use your best reliever in a particular game might not be to wait until you have a lead in the 9th.

 

Terry Francona was probably one of the first managers to get on board with the idea. I already mentioned Andrew Miller in 2016.

 

But a much earlier example was how he used Keith Foulke in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. He brought Foulke in in the 7th inning with the Sox losing 4-3. Foulke went on to pitch 2.2 scoreless innings.

 

And the rest is history.

 

“Closers” used to go 2 to 3 innings all the time. They really didn’t become 9th inning specialists until Eckerskey in 1989…

[Old Red]

“Closers” used to go 2 to 3 innings all the time. They really didn’t become 9th inning specialists until Eckerskey in 1989…

 

Everyone one used to go more innings. Starters used to pitch every 4th day, and there were no worries about pitch counts, innings pitched, and certainly no 3 times through the order stuff. Seems there were less arm troubles too.

[Bellhorn04]

“Closers” used to go 2 to 3 innings all the time. They really didn’t become 9th inning specialists until Eckerskey in 1989…

 

True. One thing people forget about poor Calvin Schiraldi in Game 6 was that he threw 55 freakin' pitches in that game...

[notin]

Everyone one used to go more innings. Starters used to pitch every 4th day, and there were no worries about pitch counts, innings pitched, and certainly no 3 times through the order stuff. Seems there were less arm troubles too.

 

Actually there easily as many arm problems. Careers just ended, especially prior to Tommy John surgery…

[redsoxrules]

Two shaky RELIEF ACE outings in a row by Whitlock.

 

Maybe the RELIEF ACE role is too big of an ask over the long haul, I don't know. It's not like there are a bunch of guys who have done it for a number of years.

 

Probably wouldn't of happen if he was used properly all year long. Being jerked around from bullpen last year to this year starting to now back to bullpen. I hope to f*** they don't try him as a starter next year again or else that might be the end of him being good

[dgalehouse]

We have to also consider the possibility that Whitlock is not quite as good as we thought.

[Old Red]

We have to also consider the possibility that Whitlock is not quite as good as we thought.

 

That’s a strong possibility. I think he will be good, but not quite as dominant as last year when he was used mostly 2-3 days between appearances, and only 73 innings.