A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[moonslav59]

But have I told you the tale of Jeter Downs?

 

File under the Horror story genre.

[sk7326]

Anybody why did all the pundits, and publications give Bloom such bad grades on the trade?

 

1. The team traded a Top 10 player and got no All-Star ceiling out of it. So from a baseball perspective it was a bad trade. Knowing in 2022 that the San Diego Padres traded multiple Top 100 prospects to the Nationals for Juan Soto makes this harder to swallow, even with the extra control that Soto has.

 

2. That said, if you rejigger the notion of the trade to "The David Price salary dump featuring Mookie Betts", then the baseball trade at the time was okay. Jeter Downs was seen as a high floor prospect (whoopsie) and Verdugo was arguably the Sox' best player in that forsaken 2020 miniseason.

 

3. Honestly, the big problems the Sox have been more before the FA picture loomed. They and Betts and Bogaerts never got close on extensions. When Betts only had one year of control left, it did take away some of Boston's leverage. From what was reported, there were not a ton of buyers, though again we don't know exactly what ownership was looking for and whatnot. Were there more teams in the position of - say, Minnesota (101-61 in 2019) who might have been willing to trade for Betts knowing they were only getting the 1-year? I don't know.

 

4. The real Monday Morning Quarterback play is to wonder whether Boston should have dealt Betts at the 2019 trade deadline. I totally get why they didn't and largely support it - there was a wildcard chase after all. However, if the Red Sox really knew the state of play contractually, looked at the jumble of teams they had to fight off to get a wild card spot, and the alarming state of their 2019 pitchihg staff ... it would have taken stones, but that would have been the time to get the sort of bidding war that would have gotten some All-Star sort of ceiling.

 

While I think there were plenty of extenuating circumstances, the top level story of the Betts trade is what it is - and fans have every right to be bummed out about it. The team simply did not get the organizational jolt you'd expect by dealing a player of that caliber.

Edited February 2, 2023 by sk7326

[Old Red]

I don't believe this is the case at all. Please provide supporting evidence.

 

Just go back, and look at any publication on the trade. This is old news now that has been gone over many many times. SI for 1 was a D.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Old Red

[Old Red]

Yes, hindsight is always a perfect 20/20 on prospects/suspects.

 

Price sucked the last 2 years, so where is Bloom's hindsight upgrade for that? LOL

 

Price was never a fit in Boston, and just a makeup for Lester, and agree he did suck.

[moonslav59]

I don't believe this is the case at all. Please provide supporting evidence.

 

He won't. We've asked him to do this several times on this and other issues and comments Like "He got all failing grades on _____."

 

I do recall, the Sox were given Cs and Ds by many "pundits," but I wonder if they knew what other choices were out there or factored in that a Betts trade was mandatory and forced.

[Old Red]

He won't. We've asked him to do this several times on this and other issues and comments Like "He got all failing grades on _____."

 

I do recall, the Sox were given Cs and Ds by many "pundits," but I wonder if they knew what other choices were out there or factored in that a Betts trade was mandatory and forced.

I sure all the pundits took that all under consideration, and know more than what you have speculated. You hang on to a D as a success.

[moonslav59]

If Mookie wasn't any good for the next decade, I'd bet every longtime Dodgers fan you meet will still say the trade was worth it, just for that one World Series title.

 

Indeed, just as some say the Price signing was good one, because of that ring.

 

The deal was certainly a good one for the Dodgers, even if Betts left to another team after 2020.

 

It's hard to say it was "good, " "decent," "okay" or "bad" from the Sox side, because the whole situation was complex, and the Price aspect of the trade makes it even more nuanced.

 

No doubt, I'd rather have Betts than Verdugo, but it's not that simple.

 

[moonslav59]

I sure all the pundits took that all under consideration, and know more than what you have speculated. You hang on to a D as a success.

 

Some gave the Sox a "C," so when you keep saying "all the pundits," even after being corrected several times, I have to wonder why you persist knowing you are wrong.

[moonslav59]

I sure all the pundits took that all under consideration, and know more than what you have speculated. You hang on to a D as a success.

 

You keep saying I think the trade was a "success" or "good."

 

Saying we got the best or close to the best we could get is far from saying it was a success or good.

 

I keep telling you this, but for some reason, you enjoy putting words in my mouth.

[Bellhorn04]

If Mookie wasn't any good for the next decade, I'd bet every longtime Dodgers fan you meet will still say the trade was worth it, just for that one World Series title.

 

Yeah, just like we say Price was worth every penny for that one title, right? Hmmm....

[Old Red]

You keep saying I think the trade was a "success" or "good."

 

Saying we got the best or close to the best we could get is far from saying it was a success or good.

 

I keep telling you this, but for some reason, you enjoy putting words in my mouth.

 

You, and I both don’t know what was out there, or what was the best we could get for Betts. I’m sure there was more out there than what was reported, and another, or a better GM could have gotten more. Let’s remember that the low grades were given out with the idea that Jeter was a prospect, but as we all know he turned out to be a failed suspect.

[Bellhorn04]

While I think there were plenty of extenuating circumstances, the top level story of the Betts trade is what it is - and fans have every right to be bummed out about it. The team simply did not get the organizational jolt you'd expect by dealing a player of that caliber.

 

To me the real bummer was trading him at all, and giving up on keeping him.

[Old Red]

Yeah, just like we say Price was worth every penny for that one title, right? Hmmm....

 

No on Price, and the Sox would have most likely won that title with Lester.

[Bellhorn04]

Most of this falls at the feet of Henry.

 

But guess what, under Henry the Red Sox still have twice as many titles as the Yankees and Dodgers do, combined, since he bought the team.

 

Is it possible we gripe too much about his mistakes?

[moonslav59]

You, and I both don’t know what was out there, or what was the best we could get for Betts. I’m sure there was more out there than what was reported, and another, or a better GM could have gotten more. Let’s remember that the low grades were given out with the idea that Jeter was a prospect, but as we all know he turned out to be a failed suspect.

 

Again, where did I say the trade was good for us.

 

Yes, I have heard what else was out there, and I was and still am not impressed.

 

We could have done slightly better, but that doesn't mean the trade was bad or good or successful.

 

I think we got close to the best we could get. In hindsight, I wish we asked for a lesser prospect than Downs- one that did better, so yes, that part sucks.

 

Verdugo has been okay and may still add more value. Wong is a long shot.

 

The whole Betts situation sucked. I hated having to trade him. Nothing would have made me happy, except keeping him. It was what it was- a crappy situation forced on Bloom.

 

[moonslav59]

All the pundits said Price was a good signing.

[mvp 78]

If Mookie wasn't any good for the next decade, I'd bet every longtime Dodgers fan you meet will still say the trade was worth it, just for that one World Series title.

 

I had felt so sorry for that franchise after all those chants of "19-88" over and over at each away game. So sad for them.

[moonslav59]

You, and I both don’t know what was out there, or what was the best we could get for Betts. I’m sure there was more out there than what was reported, and another, or a better GM could have gotten more. Let’s remember that the low grades were given out with the idea that Jeter was a prospect, but as we all know he turned out to be a failed suspect.

 

You admit we don't know, but then act so sure he "could have gotten more."

 

One year of Betts + 3 years of half-Price may not be what you think it was.

[moonslav59]

To me the real bummer was trading him at all, and giving up on keeping him.

 

In this sense, that's what makes the trade "suck."

[mvp 78]

1. The team traded a Top 10 player and got no All-Star ceiling out of it. So from a baseball perspective it was a bad trade. Knowing in 2022 that the San Diego Padres traded multiple Top 100 prospects to the Nationals for Juan Soto makes this harder to swallow, even with the extra control that Soto has.

 

Soto was traded for 2.5 years, during a pennant chase. Mookie was traded for 1 year. That's an amazingly huge difference.

[dgalehouse]

The Mookie Betts trade will live in infamy. It was one of the absolute worst deals in history. And for a proud, wealthy, big market team like the Red Sox , it was disgraceful. A pox on John Henry and Chaim Bloom. The attempts to spin it differently are beyond ludicrous.

[mvp 78]

Most of this falls at the feet of Henry.

 

But guess what, under Henry the Red Sox still have twice as many titles as the Yankees and Dodgers do, combined, since he bought the team.

 

Is it possible we gripe too much about his mistakes?

 

Hell, no.

[sk7326]

Soto was traded for 2.5 years, during a pennant chase. Mookie was traded for 1 year. That's an amazingly huge difference.

 

Indeed - and I certainly would not expect the Soto return. I even acknowledged the difference is circumstances. But again, trading a superstar and getting no All Star potential in return stings and I am totally okay with some resentment of the front office on that front.

 

There is a large range between what the Nationals got for Soto and the meh the Sox got for Betts and wishing for spot in between the two is perfectly reasonable.

[moonslav59]

The Mookie Betts trade will live in infamy. It was one of the absolute worst deals in history. And for a proud, wealthy, big market team like the Red Sox , it was disgraceful. A pox on John Henry and Chaim Bloom. The attempts to spin it differently are beyond ludicrous.

 

When the GM is forced to trade Betts and Price, not viewing it within that context is way beyond ludicrous.

 

Blame Henry all you want. That's fair. Not blaming Bloom for making the trade is far from spin.

 

If you think he could have gotten better, that's debatable and fair game, but I would disagree other significantly better offers were out there.

 

How many team would even make an offer for the combo of Betts and half-price. The money alone would knock out 22-26 teams from even picking up the phone.

[mvp 78]

The Mookie Betts trade will live in infamy. It was one of the absolute worst deals in history. And for a proud, wealthy, big market team like the Red Sox , it was disgraceful. A pox on John Henry and Chaim Bloom. The attempts to spin it differently are beyond ludicrous.

 

It was disgraceful for them to let him go no matter what. People can bicker about the return, he should have retired in a Sox jersey.

 

Whether it was Henry being too cheap to keep him around or the other contracts getting in the way, it's just not fair.

[moonslav59]

Indeed - and I certainly would not expect the Soto return. I even acknowledged the difference is circumstances. But again, trading a superstar and getting no All Star potential in return stings and I am totally okay with some resentment of the front office on that front.

 

There is a large range between what the Nationals got for Soto and the meh the Sox got for Betts and wishing for spot in between the two is perfectly reasonable.

 

I think they felt Verdugo and Downs had "all star potential."

 

The question is, what other allstars were offered?

[sk7326]

Again, where did I say the trade was good for us.

 

Yes, I have heard what else was out there, and I was and still am not impressed.

 

We could have done slightly better, but that doesn't mean the trade was bad or good or successful.

 

I think we got close to the best we could get. In hindsight, I wish we asked for a lesser prospect than Downs- one that did better, so yes, that part sucks.

 

Verdugo has been okay and may still add more value. Wong is a long shot.

 

The whole Betts situation sucked. I hated having to trade him. Nothing would have made me happy, except keeping him. It was what it was- a crappy situation forced on Bloom.

 

 

This is a fair take. If I had an issue with the trade it is more with "all the circumstances leading up to that point". That said, is the franchise in better shape from the trade than keeping Betts and then living with compensation? Hard to say in 2023, but ex ante - when the trade was made of course it did. Really the big issue with the trade was that Downs - a top 100 prospect who was expected to have a pretty high floor - was a total washout for the Red Sox. Whether the missed season due to the pandemic was the cause or not - his career splits between the two are truly jarring.

 

Getting two solid starters out of the deal - even with that as the ceiling, would have been a good result for a fire sale.

[mvp 78]

Indeed - and I certainly would not expect the Soto return. I even acknowledged the difference is circumstances. But again, trading a superstar and getting no All Star potential in return stings and I am totally okay with some resentment of the front office on that front.

 

There is a large range between what the Nationals got for Soto and the meh the Sox got for Betts and wishing for spot in between the two is perfectly reasonable.

 

At the time, Verdugo was a decent piece.

 

Age 23: 2 fWAR (prior to the trade)

Age 24: 1.9 fWAR (prorated 5.4 for COVID season)

 

If Verdugo has a 4 fWAR season this year and next, does it help at all?

 

Downs was a highly rated prospect. He just flamed out.

[Old Red]

Most of this falls at the feet of Henry.

 

But guess what, under Henry the Red Sox still have twice as many titles as the Yankees and Dodgers do, combined, since he bought the team.

 

Is it possible we gripe too much about his mistakes?

 

It depends how you look at the picture. The 4 titles are great, but all the last place finishes aren’t so great, and the what have you done for me lately crowd like watching ticket prices go up after a losing last place in the Div finish, and watching a fan favorite like Bogey not resigned a few years after letting Mookie go out the door, and you get the boos, and Jeers like JH, and company got at the little get together last week.

[mvp 78]

I think they felt Verdugo and Downs had "all star potential."

 

The question is, what other allstars were offered?

 

Also, let's revisit the Soto trade in a few years and see where those guys wind up.