The Way Too Early Tear Down Thread

[Bellhorn04]

Has he even been allowed to make big moves? The Sox payroll still isn’t small…

 

Have to count Story's $140 mill as a big move, if we're counting Sale's $145 mill as a big move.

[Old Red]

Has he even been allowed to make big moves? The Sox payroll still isn’t small…

 

He was given the assignment of trading Mookie. Do you think John Henry told Bloom to just offer Bogey a one yr contract ext for $30M? John Henry admitted they bungled the John Lester negotiating, so I think this was all on Bloom. Now I’m not saying JH gave Bloom a blank checkbook, but I think the offer was Bloom’s bungling.

[notin]

Have to count Story's $140 mill as a big move, if we're counting Sale's $145 mill as a big move.

 

I’m fine with that.

 

The interesting fallout from that is Story as a big moves also serves as negotiation leverage to prevent Bogaerts from becoming an even bigger move…

[mvp 78]

Would the current front office have done it either?

 

???

[mvp 78]

And when Theo went to the Cubs, the team was awful as he rebuilt it.

 

He was a s***** GM for those years. He also sucked in 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2011.

[mvp 78]

He was given the assignment of trading Mookie. Do you think John Henry told Bloom to just offer Bogey a one yr contract ext for $30M? John Henry admitted they bungled the John Lester negotiating, so I think this was all on Bloom. Now I’m not saying JH gave Bloom a blank checkbook, but I think the offer was Bloom’s bungling.

 

Contracts that large probably always are run through ownership. Hard to parse out which person in the FO made which decision.

[Old Red]

Contracts that large probably always are run through ownership. Hard to parse out which person in the FO made which decision.

 

It’s just a theory of mine, and nothing else. Either way it was a ridiculous offer, and I don’t think it warranted a counter off, which some have suggested on here.

[dgalehouse]

Speaking of Dombrowski ; He just axed Girardi in Philly.

[Old Red]

Speaking of Dombrowski ; He just axed Girardi in Philly.

 

Well they signed Harper, and Schwaber the last few years, but didn’t seem to be going anywhere.castellanos too.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Old Red

[mvp 78]

It’s just a theory of mine, and nothing else. Either way it was a ridiculous offer, and I don’t think it warranted a counter off, which some have suggested on here.

 

People on here tend to go back and forth about who offered what to who and when, but we never really have the details. None of us really know the inner workings of the FO. When I think of "Bloom" and the GM position, which he's technically the CBO, I just lump the entire front office and ownership group together. I don't think Bloom is running this as a lone wolf. I think he's working with other individuals and getting contracts approved by Henry and others in ownership. It's never really just "one guy."

 

Henry: Principal Owner/Crypt Keeper

Werner: Chairman/Muppet

Kennedy: President and CEO/Talking Head

Chaim Bloom: Chief Baseball Officer/Fall Guy

Briain O'Halloran: General Manager/Wait if this guy is the GM why aren't people blaming this guy more?

Others of note: Ben Crockett, Eddie Romero, Michael Groopman

[Old Red]

People on here tend to go back and forth about who offered what to who and when, but we never really have the details. None of us really know the inner workings of the FO. When I think of "Bloom" and the GM position, which he's technically the CBO, I just lump the entire front office and ownership group together. I don't think Bloom is running this as a lone wolf. I think he's working with other individuals and getting contracts approved by Henry and others in ownership. It's never really just "one guy."

 

Henry: Principal Owner/Crypt Keeper

Werner: Chairman/Muppet

Kennedy: President and CEO/Talking Head

Chaim Bloom: Chief Baseball Officer/Fall Guy

Briain O'Halloran: General Manager/Wait if this guy is the GM why aren't people blaming this guy more?

Others of note: Ben Crockett, Eddie Romero, Michael Groopman

 

Good summary.

[notin]

???

 

Follow your own response about re-signing Sale, something you said you would not have done in response to my saying your accounting might be more creative than the current front office…

[mvp 78]

Follow your own response about re-signing Sale, something you said you would not have done in response to my saying your accounting might be more creative than the current front office…

 

Let me rephrase my response.

 

"Would he current front office have re-signed Sale."

 

[moonslav59]

Yes looks good so far, and these are the lower level moves that Bloom can hit on, but it’s the big moves that worry me.

 

What big moves?

 

Story is the only one, yet you have already determined Bloom is "in over his head."

 

Look at the 2020 roster- top to bottom. Yes, it had Betts, Bogey, Devers, Beni and JBJ, along with Nate, Sale and Price.

 

Look at the roster, now, including the bottom of the 40 man roster and the improved farm quality and quantity. Bloom has not been even close to perfect on his moderate to major moves, but what GM is?

 

He was handed a 40 man roster with 15-20 holes in it, and a farm with very little recognizable high value players in it.

 

He was given about $40M to spend before 2021, and the team did very well, considering the budget and starting point.

 

He was given more to spend, this winter, but only 1 FA contract has ever been signed for more than 2 years. You think that's 100% Bloom's choice? You think he chose to not go over the tax line?

 

On the Betts trade, how many teams were willing to trade value for a guy making $28M for 1 year of team control? Just the money alone knocked 20+ teams out of even bothering to make a phone call. I'd love to know what other offers were discussed, let alone actually made. My guess is less than 5.

 

Verdugo looked like a nice get. Of course, equal value for one year of Betts is not going to be someone like Betts with 4-5 years of team control. The idea is that you get something good, and you use the money saved to try and gain equal value, piecemeal. $30M a year for 10 years is a lot of FA value to count on the net ledger. Maybe Verdugo continues to suck, the rest of his time, here. Maybe Downs and Wong give us nothing. The fact is, we lost 1 year of Betts, during a year where he would not have come close to helping us even make the playoffs. Just what value was his 2020 season to us?

 

I was very upset we lost Betts. Hell, I think I suggested offering more than anyone else, but it looks like he was never going to stay here. I know you've suggested trading these guys earlier to get more return, but then you also seem to get upset when we don't keep them. It's hard to know what you think could have been done in a better way? Bloom could not have traded him "earlier," and unless we know what other offers were out there, just saying "we should have gotten more," or "we should have gotten pitching" is kind of hard to agree with, since it's near total speculation.

 

Bloom was handed a totally different set of cards to deal with, and a highly restricted budget. It's not his Tampa learnings that has kept him from spending large and long. Before the 2021 season, he still had 7-10 significant holes to fill, that he didn't get filled with an even more restrictive 2020 season budget. He had $40M to spend on all those holes, and because he didn't sign anyone to $25M, some think he's not capable of doing it, or doing it well. Had he spent $30M of the $40M he had on 1 guy, we'd have had the 2020 roster all over again, but with one more good player.

 

He did what he had to do. He started by building up roster depth to increase the chances a few more players prove they can stick around beyond 2020 and 2021, or be replaced. He basically signed placeholders to carry us to the next winter, in hopes we'd start seeing some help from the farm, and eventually an expanded spending budget, as some deadwood came off the books.

 

This winter, we will lose some deadwood, but we will also be losing some top talent that will be hard to replace. For some of the guys, re-signing them will not actually give us the same expected results and production we have now. Then, at what cost?

 

To me, this coming winter is when we will see the real Bloom. We'll all find out, if he's pretty good, just okay or something like "in over his head." This will be the first time he'll have the kind of power and room to wiggle, since becoming the GM.

 

Yes, DD was handed some deadwood, too, but he was given a farm with many prospects other teams coveted, dearly. He was given a spending budget unprecedented in Sox GM history that spanned for about 3 years. When the cut off his spending, we saw 2019.

 

I'm hopeful Bloom responds to the challenge and window of opportunity. He'll have some difficult and likely unpopular choices to make. It will be almost impossible to keep every fan happy, and if he does, we'll likely be $50M over the tax line, next year.

 

Could or should he trade away 75% of our top prospects like DD did, and try and build a juggernaut 3 year window? Some here, seem to think that's the best plan, and count on henry to just spend his way through the aftermath. Not me.

 

I like the path Henry and Bloom have chosen. It remains to be seen, if they can pull it off. Henry gave up on a similar strategy under Ben. Will he again?

 

This winter will tell a big story.

[JDavis76]

The proof is what they spent.

 

Do people really think Bloom was given a big spending budget and chose not to do so? Where is your evidence on that?

 

Maybe he didn't like certain fits, maybe he wasn't crazy about what was available at the asking prices, who knows

[moonslav59]

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but looking at cots and the DD years, it looks like he was given budget room to make these signings/additions:

 

2016

$30M x 7 Price

$20.6M x 4 Porcello (extended)

$16M Ortiz (re-signed)

$13M x 2 Kimbrel (via trade)

$6.5M x 2 Chris Young

 

2017 Pretty much just carried over 2016 spending with no major salary additions.

 

2018

$22M x 5 JD

(Continued paying of added/kept players like Pom $8.5M, Moreland $6.5M, Nunez $4M and others)

In season additions of Eovaldi and Pearce

 

2019

Eovaldi extension at $17M x 4 and Pearce $6.25M x 1

(He extended Sale to begin in 2020)

 

I count 4-5 major large and long contracts DD was allowed to make. Did I miss anything?

[Old Red]

What big moves?

 

Story is the only one, yet you have already determined Bloom is "in over his head."

 

Look at the 2020 roster- top to bottom. Yes, it had Betts, Bogey, Devers, Beni and JBJ, along with Nate, Sale and Price.

 

Look at the roster, now, including the bottom of the 40 man roster and the improved farm quality and quantity. Bloom has not been even close to perfect on his moderate to major moves, but what GM is?

 

He was handed a 40 man roster with 15-20 holes in it, and a farm with very little recognizable high value players in it.

 

He was given about $40M to spend before 2021, and the team did very well, considering the budget and starting point.

 

He was given more to spend, this winter, but only 1 FA contract has ever been signed for more than 2 years. You think that's 100% Bloom's choice? You think he chose to not go over the tax line?

 

On the Betts trade, how many teams were willing to trade value for a guy making $28M for 1 year of team control? Just the money alone knocked 20+ teams out of even bothering to make a phone call. I'd love to know what other offers were discussed, let alone actually made. My guess is less than 5.

 

Verdugo looked like a nice get. Of course, equal value for one year of Betts is not going to be someone like Betts with 4-5 years of team control. The idea is that you get something good, and you use the money saved to try and gain equal value, piecemeal. $30M a year for 10 years is a lot of FA value to count on the net ledger. Maybe Verdugo continues to suck, the rest of his time, here. Maybe Downs and Wong give us nothing. The fact is, we lost 1 year of Betts, during a year where he would not have come close to helping us even make the playoffs. Just what value was his 2020 season to us?

 

I was very upset we lost Betts. Hell, I think I suggested offering more than anyone else, but it looks like he was never going to stay here. I know you've suggested trading these guys earlier to get more return, but then you also seem to get upset when we don't keep them. It's hard to know what you think could have been done in a better way? Bloom could not have traded him "earlier," and unless we know what other offers were out there, just saying "we should have gotten more," or "we should have gotten pitching" is kind of hard to agree with, since it's near total speculation.

 

Bloom was handed a totally different set of cards to deal with, and a highly restricted budget. It's not his Tampa learnings that has kept him from spending large and long. Before the 2021 season, he still had 7-10 significant holes to fill, that he didn't get filled with an even more restrictive 2020 season budget. He had $40M to spend on all those holes, and because he didn't sign anyone to $25M, some think he's not capable of doing it, or doing it well. Had he spent $30M of the $40M he had on 1 guy, we'd have had the 2020 roster all over again, but with one more good player.

 

He did what he had to do. He started by building up roster depth to increase the chances a few more players prove they can stick around beyond 2020 and 2021, or be replaced. He basically signed placeholders to carry us to the next winter, in hopes we'd start seeing some help from the farm, and eventually an expanded spending budget, as some deadwood came off the books.

 

This winter, we will lose some deadwood, but we will also be losing some top talent that will be hard to replace. For some of the guys, re-signing them will not actually give us the same expected results and production we have now. Then, at what cost?

 

To me, this coming winter is when we will see the real Bloom. We'll all find out, if he's pretty good, just okay or something like "in over his head." This will be the first time he'll have the kind of power and room to wiggle, since becoming the GM.

 

Yes, DD was handed some deadwood, too, but he was given a farm with many prospects other teams coveted, dearly. He was given a spending budget unprecedented in Sox GM history that spanned for about 3 years. When the cut off his spending, we saw 2019.

 

I'm hopeful Bloom responds to the challenge and window of opportunity. He'll have some difficult and likely unpopular choices to make. It will be almost impossible to keep every fan happy, and if he does, we'll likely be $50M over the tax line, next year.

 

Could or should he trade away 75% of our top prospects like DD did, and try and build a juggernaut 3 year window? Some here, seem to think that's the best plan, and count on henry to just spend his way through the aftermath. Not me.

 

I like the path Henry and Bloom have chosen. It remains to be seen, if they can pull it off. Henry gave up on a similar strategy under Ben. Will he again?

 

This winter will tell a big story.

 

This is all good, and well, but you have your opinion on Bloom, and I have mine. The only thing that will change my mine is if this team ends up in the postseason this year, and next year also, because I am not allowing Bloom, or the Red Sox any room for a fire sale of this magnitude, because I don’t think it should have ever come to that. Once again I have my opinion, and you have yours.

[moonslav59]

Maybe he didn't like certain fits, maybe he wasn't crazy about what was available at the asking prices, who knows

 

You can choose to think Bloom could have spent way more but chose not to, just like I choose to believe he had a restricted spending limit pre 2020 and 2021. I think the purse strings were loosened for 2022, but even then, he had limits.

 

Yes, "who knows," but I think it's pretty obvious, he had pretty strict spending guideline that were much lower than DD had.

 

Choosing not to trade much of the farm away is probably his choice, but I think that was what Henry wanted, when he hired him. Besides, it's not worth trading big chunks of the farm away, unless the time is right.

 

Apparently, some seem to think the time is always "right" and "now!"

[dgalehouse]

A great coach once said: " Winning isn't everything , it's the only thing." He wasn't one to care about a bunch of explanations and excuses.

[moonslav59]

This is all good, and well, but you have your opinion on Bloom, and I have mine. The only thing that will change my mine is if this team ends up in the postseason this year, and next year also, because I am not allowing Bloom, or the Red Sox any room for a fire sale of this magnitude, because I don’t think it should have ever come to that. Once again I have my opinion, and you have yours.

 

It's not an opinion to say Bloom has only made one major signing, and even Story's deal is significantly less than Price's, and after figuring inflation, maybe even less than JD's deal.

 

(I don't count the Bogey deal as large and long, because of the opt out, and it being "only" $20M per.)

 

The Story deal is 2-3 months old. Sure, have an opinion on Bloom's ability to do well or poorly on big deals, but no matter what opinion anyone takes, it's premature.

[Old Red]

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but looking at cots and the DD years, it looks like he was given budget room to make these signings/additions:

 

2016

$30M x 7 Price

$20.6M x 4 Porcello (extended)

$16M Ortiz (re-signed)

$13M x 2 Kimbrel (via trade)

$6.5M x 2 Chris Young

 

2017 Pretty much just carried over 2016 spending with no major salary additions.

 

2018

$22M x 5 JD

(Continued paying of added/kept players like Pom $8.5M, Moreland $6.5M, Nunez $4M and others)

In season additions of Eovaldi and Pearce

 

2019

Eovaldi extension at $17M x 4 and Pearce $6.25M x 1

(He extended Sale to begin in 2020)

 

I count 4-5 major large and long contracts DD was allowed to make. Did I miss anything?

 

Do you think Theo, or DD would work under the restrictions that Bloom has? I understand that Bloom doesn’t have the budget that the other two had, but I still think he is over his head in Boston. His admirers have been all for him the minute he landed from Tampa, but I just have not. I could be wrong on this, and if I am I will say it.

[moonslav59]

A great coach once said: " Winning isn't everything , it's the only thing." He wasn't one to care about a bunch of explanations and excuses.

 

If you're talking about my man, Vince, it's widely believed he never actually said that statement. He was quoted as saying this...

 

"“Winning is not a sometime thing…it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while…you don't do the right thing once in a while…you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit.” “Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser.”

[Old Red]

It's not an opinion to say Bloom has only made one major signing, and even Story's deal is significantly less than Price's, and after figuring inflation, maybe even less than JD's deal.

 

(I don't count the Bogey deal as large and long, because of the opt out, and it being "only" $20M per.)

 

The Story deal is 2-3 months old. Sure, have an opinion on Bloom's ability to do well or poorly on big deals, but no matter what opinion anyone takes, it's premature.

 

Ok I’ll admit it premature, but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Time will tell. The Sox haven’t won 4 championships under Henry doing it the Tampa way, and I don’t want to start trying it now. I’m not from The Whoo hoo we got someone from the Tampa fan club.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Old Red

[mvp 78]

If you're talking about my man, Vince, it's widely believed he never actually said that statement. He was quoted as saying this...

 

"“Winning is not a sometime thing…it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while…you don't do the right thing once in a while…you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit.” “Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser.”

 

No, Vince said "It was me Austin. It's me Austin. It was me all along. You bought it."

[JDavis76]

You can choose to think Bloom could have spent way more but chose not to, just like I choose to believe he had a restricted spending limit pre 2020 and 2021. I think the purse strings were loosened for 2022, but even then, he had limits.

 

Yes, "who knows," but I think it's pretty obvious, he had pretty strict spending guideline that were much lower than DD had.

 

Choosing not to trade much of the farm away is probably his choice, but I think that was what Henry wanted, when he hired him. Besides, it's not worth trading big chunks of the farm away, unless the time is right.

 

Apparently, some seem to think the time is always "right" and "now!"

 

But I am not stating my opinion as fact........

[moonslav59]

Do you think Theo, or DD would work under the restrictions that Bloom has? I understand that Bloom doesn’t have the budget that the other two had, but I still think he is over his head in Boston. His admirers have been all for him the minute he landed from Tampa, but I just have not. I could be wrong on this, and if I am I will say it.

 

I think all our GMs had certain sending guidelines, and if they wanted to exceed the guidelines, they had to convince Henry on the merits of it. I'm thinking all major signings had to be approved by upper management or Henry, himself.

 

I think Bloom was handed one of the worst, if not the worst farms of any of the GMs under Henry.

 

I think DD was handed about as much deadwood contracts as Bloom, maybe more, but he was allowed to spend like no other GM, including Theo.

 

I'm curious how anyone can judge that someone is in over his head when he's handed a roster with 20 holes in it and $40M to spend on 1 year deals to fix it.

 

He turned a team that was the worst Sox team I've ever seen to a near league champion. Yes, we were near not making the playoffs, too in '21, but I just don't get why so many feel so much negativity towards a GM who has yet to be given a real chance at making his mark on the team.

 

The admirers see the progression the 40 man roster nad farm has made, and await the outcome of his major moves, until the judgement time is up.

 

Judging the Betts, Beni, JBJ and Story deals, now, is premature. Sure, have an opinion based on what you feel is going to happen, and how all the deals and non deals will stack up against time, That's fine. I guess I'd just like a little more details on what exactly shows Bloom is over his head.

 

I assume you think he got duped in the Betts deal, that 3 years of Beni will outweigh all the years from Cordero, Winckowski and others, and that Binelas & Hamilton will never make up for the net loss between Renfroe and JBJ. And, all of this outweighs the plus moves you've agreed he's made- like Whitlock & Pivetta and maybe German, Schreiber, Wacha, Hill, Strahm and others.

 

IMO, the Story deal is the only major one he's made. It's hard to judge a GM based on that and a bunch of minor deals.

[moonslav59]

But I am not stating my opinion as fact........

 

I just stated the fact or how much was spent. You haven't stated your opinion, actually.

 

Say it: "I think Bloom could have spent more, but he chose not to." Then, if this is your opinion, share what evidence leas you to think this.

 

Is that your opinion, or are you just stating some nebulous comment about how "nobody knows ____."

[moonslav59]

Ok I’ll admit it premature, but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Time will tell. The Sox haven’t won 4 championships under Henry doing it the Tampa way, and I don’t want to start trying it now. I’m not from The Whoo hoo we got someone from the Tampa fan club.

 

The fact that Bloom came from Tampa is not the "Woo Hoo" part of this admirer. Sure, I like to think maybe he can find some under-the-radar talent for cheep that can help build a roster that needs less major FA signings than most past Sox teams have had, but what I like about Bloom is the same as I did about Ben: seeking to build a more balanced approach to winning and winning over a longer term than intermittent 3 year windows. Don't get me wrong, I loved DD's 3 year window and felt it could have lasted 4-5 years, but that's got nothing to do with Bloom.

 

I do think Henry has tried to reign in the spending, and in a sense, move towards the "Tampa Way," from time to time, but never fully embracing the idea, as well he should not have. We will never be Tampa, but it's not a crime or a bad idea to try and take the best parts of their "way" and incorporating those ideas into our strategy and plans for building a long term winning system.

 

Now, a short plug for the "Tampa Way." While they have yet to win a ring, which is understandable with their budget, they have only finished in last place once since 2007 and haven't finished below 3rd place since that 2016 last place finish. It's not necessarily a bad idea to think you can try and mimic their "Way," but not have to trade away your best players while they still have 2-3 years of prime production in them.

 

I don't think Henry or Bloom are trying to make the Sox into the Rays. The Rays have not done a few things very well, including drafting and IFA signings. I think Henry wanted to rebuild the farm and ML foundation 40 man roster and do it as quickly as possible. He chose Bloom for that job, and I think he's the right kind of GM for that job.

 

Whether Henry sticks with the plan, or get's anxious, like he did with Ben, remains to be seen, but IMO, Bloom has done a pretty good job doing what I think he was asked to do.

 

Now, we near the next step, and your guess is as good as mine, if Bloom is up to the task. I have no idea, if he will do better with major signings than past Sox GMs. Many have not only failed, they have flopped, sometimes right out of the gate.

 

Time will tell.

[Old Red]

The fact that Bloom came from Tampa is not the "Woo Hoo" part of this admirer. Sure, I like to think maybe he can find some under-the-radar talent for cheep that can help build a roster that needs less major FA signings than most past Sox teams have had, but what I like about Bloom is the same as I did about Ben: seeking to build a more balanced approach to winning and winning over a longer term than intermittent 3 year windows. Don't get me wrong, I loved DD's 3 year window and felt it could have lasted 4-5 years, but that's got nothing to do with Bloom.

 

I do think Henry has tried to reign in the spending, and in a sense, move towards the "Tampa Way," from time to time, but never fully embracing the idea, as well he should not have. We will never be Tampa, but it's not a crime or a bad idea to try and take the best parts of their "way" and incorporating those ideas into our strategy and plans for building a long term winning system.

 

Now, a short plug for the "Tampa Way." While they have yet to win a ring, which is understandable with their budget, they have only finished in last place once since 2007 and haven't finished below 3rd place since that 2016 last place finish. It's not necessarily a bad idea to think you can try and mimic their "Way," but not have to trade away your best players while they still have 2-3 years of prime production in them.

 

I don't think Henry or Bloom are trying to make the Sox into the Rays. The Rays have not done a few things very well, including drafting and IFA signings. I think Henry wanted to rebuild the farm and ML foundation 40 man roster and do it as quickly as possible. He chose Bloom for that job, and I think he's the right kind of GM for that job.

 

Whether Henry sticks with the plan, or get's anxious, like he did with Ben, remains to be seen, but IMO, Bloom has done a pretty good job doing what I think he was asked to do.

 

Now, we near the next step, and your guess is as good as mine, if Bloom is up to the task. I have no idea, if he will do better with major signings than past Sox GMs. Many have not only failed, they have flopped, sometimes right out of the gate.

 

Time will tell.

 

You make good points, and yes time will tell. I was on the fence with Bloom for awhile, but what pushed me over to one side was when Bloom made that ridiculous contract offer to Bogey.

[notin]

If you're talking about my man, Vince, it's widely believed he never actually said that statement. He was quoted as saying this...

 

"“Winning is not a sometime thing…it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while…you don't do the right thing once in a while…you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit.” “Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser.”

 

 

The quote was originally from UCLA football coach Red Sanders. Sanders also is credited with saying of rival USC “Beating SC isn’t a matter of life and death. It’s more important than that.”

 

It is possible the man was a tad overly competitive…