2022 Bullpen Thread

[JDavis76]

Oh, good grief. "There's no way to know" is tantamount to saying that statistics, shifts, ERA's, fWAR's, and all that stuff have no validity because they guarantee nothing. You can see no difference between a closer with 6 saves (and no blown saves) this month and and an ERA of 1.48--vs Danish, who has no saves and an ERA over 6.

 

houck gave up a run last night, I thought you said that couldn't happen?

[Bellhorn04]

houck gave up a run last night, I thought you said that couldn't happen?

 

Pretty sure that's not exactly what he said. Houck has given up runs in his saves.

[Old Red]

Pretty sure that's not exactly what he said. Houck has given up runs in his saves.

 

Houck has been shaky at best.

[Bellhorn04]

Houck has been shaky at best.

 

I don't disagree. But he has converted all his save opportunities, at least. He won't be mistaken for 2013 Koji.

[JDavis76]

Pretty sure that's not exactly what he said. Houck has given up runs in his saves.

 

Well, he was saying that there was no way that houck would have blown that game in toronto.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, he was saying that there was no way that houck would have blown that game in toronto.

 

Oh, I know. And I agree with you that there's no way to know. I think Max actually realizes that too.

[JDavis76]

Oh, I know. And I agree with you that there's no way to know. I think Max actually realizes that too.

 

max envisions himself as some sort of Carnac the Magnificent

[notin]

With Kike’s season in doubt, and JBJ back under .570, I think it’s a toss up between getting a renatl1Bman or CF/RF. We may get both plus RPer or two.

 

I doubt the Sox get an OF for the following reasons

 

1. Kike isn’t dead.

2. I’m not sure they care about Bradley’s OPS as much as we do, especially with Refsnyder playing part time. They didn’t trade for Bradley because of his bat.

3. Getting a real 1b enables them to return Cordero to the OF.

[notin]

houck gave up a run last night, I thought you said that couldn't happen?

 

Not at all what was said…

[moonslav59]

I doubt the Sox get an OF for the following reasons

 

1. Kike isn’t dead.

2. I’m not sure they care about Bradley’s OPS as much as we do, especially with Refsnyder playing part time. They didn’t trade for Bradley because of his bat.

3. Getting a real 1b enables them to return Cordero to the OF.

 

The Cordero-Dalbec platoon is pretty close to our RF situation, IMO. The D in RF equals the O at 1B and evens them out.

 

I do agree 1B is ahead of RF/CF, but I don’t think it’s by all that much.

[Old Red]

I doubt the Sox get an OF for the following reasons

 

1. Kike isn’t dead.

2. I’m not sure they care about Bradley’s OPS as much as we do, especially with Refsnyder playing part time. They didn’t trade for Bradley because of his bat.

3. Getting a real 1b enables them to return Cordero to the OF.

 

Does anyone miss Kike outside of Moon? I agree I don’t think the Red Sox care about JBJ’s stats. I think the Ref should get more playing time even against RHP to see what he can do. He isn’t bad with the glove, and can’t be worse with the bat than JBJ.

[moonslav59]

Does anyone miss Kike outside of Moon?

 

Still showing clear disdain.

[notin]

Does anyone miss Kike outside of Moon? I agree I don’t think the Red Sox care about JBJ’s stats. I think the Ref should get more playing time even against RHP to see what he can do. He isn’t bad with the glove, and can’t be worse with the bat than JBJ.

 

He absolutely could be worse with the bat than JBJ; he isn’t a 31yo minor league journeyman because he’s too good of a hitter and fielder…

[Old Red]

Still showing clear disdain.

 

No. Just don’t idolize Kike like you do with him.

[moonslav59]

No. Just don’t idolize Kike like you do with him.

 

I've suggested trading Kike several times, recently on BTV. I once said he had the greatest defensive season by a Sox OF'er in my memory, and you stretch that to idolization. Most of the time I talk about Kike is when defending him against your and other's insults and put-downs.

 

And, yes, your disdain is obvious and constant.

[JDavis76]

I've suggested trading Kike several times, recently on BTV. I once said he had the greatest defensive season by a Sox OF'er in my memory, and you stretch that to idolization. Most of the time I talk about Kike is when defending him against your and other's insults and put-downs.

 

And, yes, your disdain is obvious and constant.

 

As is your pollyanna homerism.

[Old Red]

I've suggested trading Kike several times, recently on BTV. I once said he had the greatest defensive season by a Sox OF'er in my memory, and you stretch that to idolization. Most of the time I talk about Kike is when defending him against your and other's insults and put-downs.

 

And, yes, your disdain is obvious and constant.

 

You are the only one I have ever heard say that Kike had the greatest defensive season by a Sox OF’er in memory, and you also called him a hero, so yes to me I would call that idolize. Saying Kike a career 240 hitter was a 4th OF/5th IF with the Dodgers, which he was to you is a insult, and put-down, so so be it, and if that is disdain I’m glad I’m good at it.

[moonslav59]

You are the only one I have ever heard say that Kike had the greatest defensive season by a Sox OF’er in memory, and you also called him a hero, so yes to me I would call that idolize. Saying Kike a career 240 hitter was a 4th OF/5th IF with the Dodgers, which he was to you is a insult, and put-down, so so be it, and if that is disdain I’m glad I’m good at it.

 

Playoff and second half of 2021 hero, yes. The context is needed and the statement is correct.

 

Your statement about Kike being a 5th IF/4th OF was a put down and a lie. (I say "lie" because you are now repeating and purposely stating falsehoods after being corrected with the facts.)

 

His last 2 years in LA- 2019 and 2020:

Kike had more PAs at 2B than anyone else on the team. He played more innings at 2B than anyone else.

 

He was NOT a 5th IF'er.

 

Keep choosing to repeat your lies as proof of your disdain.

 

[notin]

You are the only one I have ever heard say that Kike had the greatest defensive season by a Sox OF’er in memory, and you also called him a hero, so yes to me I would call that idolize. Saying Kike a career 240 hitter was a 4th OF/5th IF with the Dodgers, which he was to you is a insult, and put-down, so so be it, and if that is disdain I’m glad I’m good at it.

 

You’re both wrong.

 

While an excellent defensive CF, I don’t think Kike is so clearly better out there over not only Bradley, but also Fred Lynn and the oft-forgotten Coco Crisp.

 

And to call a player who appeared in over 400 games for the Dodgers a “4th outfielder/5th infielder” strikes me as disingenuous and an attempt to undersell the contributions of a very important player on a very successful team. He was third in games played over that stretch. If he was a utility infielder, what was Justin Turner? A 25th roster spot with All Star game experience?

[moonslav59]

Best OPS Games 82-162 in 2021

 

.957 Schwarber (168 PAs)

.897 Dalbec (221)

.897 Devers (340)

.848 Kike (316)

.823 Renfroe (300)

.813 JD (308)

.778 Verdugo (290)

.773 Bogey (283)

.653 Vaz (233)

 

2021 Playoffs

1.260 Kike (49 ABs)

1.135 JD (32)

1.028 Devers (44)

.835 Verdugo (42)

.833 Bogey (46)

.718 Schwarber (44)

.709 Vaz (32)

.632 Arroyo (38)

.576 Renfroe (36)

 

The correct question should be, who doesn't want Kike back?

 

There is only one answer to this question: Old Red.

 

[moonslav59]

 

While an excellent defensive CF, I don’t think Kike is so clearly better out there over not only Bradley, but also Fred Lynn and the oft-forgotten Coco Crisp.

 

 

I was talking about one season, only, and I mentioned it was a close call with JBJ, Lynn and Coco.

 

The UZR/150 and DRS numbers show others had better seasons, but I guess one's opinion cannot deviate from the metrics, if one is viewed as a stat geek.

 

Either way, I don't idolize Kike: I defend him against false statements and put downs.

 

Kike was never my favorite Sox player like JBJ was for a half decade or more, but I still think Kike played a fantastic defensive CF for us in 2021. The best? Maybe not. Maybe, probably not. Maybe I was a victim of the recency effect. I should have said "one of the best," I suppose.

[moonslav59]

You’re both wrong.

 

While an excellent defensive CF, I don’t think Kike is so clearly better out there over not only Bradley, but also Fred Lynn and the oft-forgotten Coco Crisp.

 

And to call a player who appeared in over 400 games for the Dodgers a “4th outfielder/5th infielder” strikes me as disingenuous and an attempt to undersell the contributions of a very important player on a very successful team. He was third in games played over that stretch. If he was a utility infielder, what was Justin Turner? A 25th roster spot with All Star game experience?

 

How would you answer this "troll" question posed by Red?

 

Does anyone miss Kike outside of Moon?

[Old Red]

How would you answer this "troll" question posed by Red?

 

Does anyone miss Kike outside of Moon?

 

Very simply do you miss Kike, or not. It’s not a hard question yo answer, and a simple no, or yes would do. I for one do not miss Kike at the moment, because Duran is producing, but that doesn’t mean Kike won’t come in handy later on. Defending a career 240 hitter is hilarious.

[moonslav59]

Very simply do you miss Kike, or not. It’s not a hard question yo answer, and a simple no, or yes would do. I for one do not miss Kike at the moment, because Duran is producing, but that doesn’t mean Kike won’t come in handy later on. Defending a career 240 hitter is hilarious.

 

How you can't see your clear disdain is what is hilarious. Just own up to your beliefs.

 

BTW, Kike's return need not lead to Duran's benching. JBJ could be replaced, instead.

 

Kike could be what you call him: a 4th OF'er and 5th IF'er, or do you prefer Refsnyder & Arroyo?

 

Yes or no?

[moonslav59]

Very simply do you miss Kike, or not.

 

I was asking notin. Everyone knows our two views on Kike.

[moonslav59]

Defending a career 240 hitter is hilarious.

 

So, you defending Renfroe is hilarious?

 

Got it.

[Old Red]

So, you defending Renfroe is hilarious?

 

Got it.

 

I was defending 96 RBI. I don’t think Kike ever did that.

[Old Red]

I was asking notin. Everyone knows our two views on Kike.

 

Like you two are supposed to be the measuring stick, or something? NOT!

[Old Red]

How you can't see your clear disdain is what is hilarious. Just own up to your beliefs.

 

BTW, Kike's return need not lead to Duran's benching. JBJ could be replaced, instead.

 

Kike could be what you call him: a 4th OF'er and 5th IF'er, or do you prefer Refsnyder & Arroyo?

 

Yes or no?

I am the Great DISDAINER. That’s me.

[moonslav59]

Like you two are supposed to be the measuring stick, or something? NOT!

 

Never implied that. I was just curious of his take of your troll question.