7/25 vs The Yanks

[moonslav59]

Well, I'm delighted that Boone was right after all because the Sox sure needed this win. And I guess that means Cora was right last night pulling Eovaldi because, well, the Sox just didn't deserve to win that one. And it certainly meant nothing that in his previous outing Ottavino gave up another 2 runs.

 

I refuse to judge managers choices in hindsight like that. (I know I've done similar things, but I try not to.)

 

I don't think they follow the "playbook" you seem to think all managers follow.

 

They know a hell of a lot more than we do- not just about baseball and what factors make a good decision or bad decision, and not it's not "did it work or not?" because if that is that is the case, Cora is a genius for turning a team looking like a last place team to a division leader after 100 games, but also how players are feeling, are they ready for a certain amount of pitches, match-ups with the next hitters, who is in the pen and how do they match up.

 

I'm not saying Cora has never made a mistake. He'd admit he has and may even agree with you on the Eovaldi choice, but I think he's done an extremely great job with this team. I disagree with somethings too, like line-ups and giving players days off at odd times, and in game decisions, but I hardly ever voice game decision decisions, because I know there are too many unknowns for me to pretend to know better.

 

If Germain was way over is pitch count, then pulling him even before the first hit might have been an even better move. Maybe the wrong move was not pulling him but bringing in the wrong guy.

 

We'll never know with this call or the Eovaldi call.

 

BTW, we didn't lose the Eovaldi game because the pitchers Cora brought in pitched poorly. They got the hitters out or got them to hit the ball weakly, except for the one hard 2B. The balls fell in while ours bounced into the stands or off the wall right to the SS. A little luck and we win that game, and no hindsight can prove Cora made the wrong call.

 

As it ended up, we lost,so it must have been the bad choice. I don't buy that.

 

I respect the hell out of you Max, but we just don't see this part of game/people judging the same way. I'm not saying I'm right. I was wondering why he pulled Eovaldi so soo, too, but I just will never blame a lost game on a call like that.

[illinoisredsox]

Yankees at Rays starting on Tuesday. Oh gosh. Who do you root for??

 

That is simple; the Rays.

 

We have 13 games left with the Tampa; the opportunity is there to take care of them on our own.

 

You need to drive a stake through the Yankees' heart and shoot them with a silver bullet. Until they are mathematically eliminated, you never want them to win.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The Sox got five-hitted! Gotta give Eck credit for saying no-hitter a few times while it was still intact; he's coming around as a good homer -- not as bad as Hawk Harrelson, but not a decrepit dinosaur like Goose Gossage, either.

 

I love Cora, but I'm still equally a Tito fan, even post-Sox days -- like the day Bauer had a tantrum and threw a ball over the centerfield fence... Tito hurried out to the mound, clearly yelled (lip-readers concur): "What the f*** is wrong with you?", and immediately traded his ass out of Cleveland during a pennant race.

[Larry Cook]

Good news today: turn about is fair play!

 

Bad news today: they had us beat and let us off the hook!

[jung]

Since it was ignored, I gotta say it again.

 

Both games, yesterday's and today's, were lost by managers who pulled their starters too soon. I believe they were guided by stats primarily and not by what they saw on the field of play.

 

One stat says that no pitcher can succeed in the 3d or, heaven forbid, the 4th time through the opposing line up. The other is a pitch limit for starters.

 

Both of those stats actually make sense, but not always. Right now, unfortunately, the stats dominate all decision making without regard to the dynamics of the game.

 

The only saving grace is that like lemmings they all do the same s***...every manager, every game. Have not seen any divergence from the mighty database though I have not seen every game, obviously.

 

They simply refuse to let pitchers work out of their own jams 3rd time through unless they literally do not have an option to go to. Doesn't matter how good the guy is pitching, he is outta' there.

Edited July 25, 2021 by jung

[Maxbialystock]

I refuse to judge managers choices in hindsight like that. (I know I've done similar things, but I try not to.)

 

I don't think they follow the "playbook" you seem to think all managers follow.

 

They know a hell of a lot more than we do- not just about baseball and what factors make a good decision or bad decision, and not it's not "did it work or not?" because if that is that is the case, Cora is a genius for turning a team looking like a last place team to a division leader after 100 games, but also how players are feeling, are they ready for a certain amount of pitches, match-ups with the next hitters, who is in the pen and how do they match up.

 

I'm not saying Cora has never made a mistake. He'd admit he has and may even agree with you on the Eovaldi choice, but I think he's done an extremely great job with this team. I disagree with somethings too, like line-ups and giving players days off at odd times, and in game decisions, but I hardly ever voice game decision decisions, because I know there are too many unknowns for me to pretend to know better.

 

If Germain was way over is pitch count, then pulling him even before the first hit might have been an even better move. Maybe the wrong move was not pulling him but bringing in the wrong guy.

 

We'll never know with this call or the Eovaldi call.

 

BTW, we didn't lose the Eovaldi game because the pitchers Cora brought in pitched poorly. They got the hitters out or got them to hit the ball weakly, except for the one hard 2B. The balls fell in while ours bounced into the stands or off the wall right to the SS. A little luck and we win that game, and no hindsight can prove Cora made the wrong call.

 

As it ended up, we lost,so it must have been the bad choice. I don't buy that.

 

I respect the hell out of you Max, but we just don't see this part of game/people judging the same way. I'm not saying I'm right. I was wondering why he pulled Eovaldi so soo, too, but I just will never blame a lost game on a call like that.

 

I agree. I left for a family dinner, but thought about my thesis and now agree both managers, Cora last night with Eovaldi and Boone today with German made the right call when they brought in Ottavino last night and Loaisiga tonight. Indeed I can remember commending Cora when he pulled Pivetta out when he was pitching a no-hitter and in fact pointed out that Eovaldi was more than happy to be pulled in that earlier game. In both cases--as well as the earlier game--the managers had good options in the bullpen.

 

I also emphatically agree that today German had already exceeded what Boone had hoped he could do. And to his credit this year Cora has given his starters more innings/outs/pitches to his starters than other managers might have.

 

I brought this topic up today mostly because of the example of a WS manager not long ago who pulled his starter after a terrific. scoreless 6 innings, after which his bullpen lost the game. After the game that manager said he had decided before the game that 6 innings would be his starters limit-about which I railed endlessly.

 

On the other hand, I like others have pointed out in some games that the third time through the batting order does seem to carry considerable risks (as the statistics demonstrate).

 

What last night and today demonstrated is that baseball has a special capacity to surprise us. Both Eovaldi and German were fantastic, but you still gotta play 9 innings--unless you're in a downpour at Yankee Stadium.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Maxbialystock

[Maxbialystock]

The only saving grace is that like lemmings they all do the same s***...every manager, every game. Have not seen any divergence from the mighty database though I have not seen every game, obviously.

 

They simply refuse to let pitchers work out of their own jams 3rd time through unless they literally do not have an option to go to. Doesn't matter how good the guy is pitching, he is outta' there.

 

I would love to agree with you, but I now think Boone made the right move--as did Cora last night. In both cases the starters had vastly exceeded any reasonable expectation, especially in an era when bullpens have become so important, stocked, and used.

[Maxbialystock]

The Sox got five-hitted! Gotta give Eck credit for saying no-hitter a few times while it was still intact; he's coming around as a good homer -- not as bad as Hawk Harrelson, but not a decrepit dinosaur like Goose Gossage, either.

 

I love Cora, but I'm still equally a Tito fan, even post-Sox days -- like the day Bauer had a tantrum and threw a ball over the centerfield fence... Tito hurried out to the mound, clearly yelled (lip-readers concur): "What the f*** is wrong with you?", and immediately traded his ass out of Cleveland during a pennant race.

 

I like Cora better, but Francona has won two WS and done really well with the Guardians.

[iortiz]

Thunder Magic!

 

I couldn’t watch the last couple of game. I guess both games were so stressful LOL!

[Maxbialystock]

However you want to describe or define today's game, it was still a terrific and needed win.

 

And, in case no one else has mentioned it, I will remind one and all that this fantastic rally was very much the product of the much maligned bottom of the Sox order.

 

Verdugo doubled, Renfroe doubled, Vazquez singled, and Cordero singled. All four of them scored runs that tied the game. Finally, Hernandez at the top of the order doubled, but then Plawecki (pinch-hitting for Duran who had K'd all three times) ground out (allowing Cordero to score the tying run), Bogie flied out (scoring Hernandez with the go ahead run), and Devers ground out.

[Larry Cook]

In three out of the four games, the Yankees managed to keep us off the score board for the first half of the game and yet the Yankees lost all 3 of those games. The one game we scored early, the Yankees came back and won!

 

Four come from behind victories in this series. But yet, I still wish we could jump

Out to the early lead in every game!

[moonslav59]

However you want to describe or define today's game, it was still a terrific and needed win.

 

And, in case no one else has mentioned it, I will remind one and all that this fantastic rally was very much the product of the much maligned bottom of the Sox order.

 

Verdugo doubled, Renfroe doubled, Vazquez singled, and Cordero singled. All four of them scored runs that tied the game. Finally, Hernandez at the top of the order doubled, but then Plawecki (pinch-hitting for Duran who had K'd all three times) ground out (allowing Cordero to score the tying run), Bogie flied out (scoring Hernandez with the go ahead run), and Devers ground out.

 

A lot of players that were once viewed as black holes are doing much better or a little better.

 

I also think Marwin and Santana being on the IL has helped the offense.

 

I'm hopeful Arroyo can return and help, at some point.

[jung]

I would love to agree with you, but I now think Boone made the right move--as did Cora last night. In both cases the starters had vastly exceeded any reasonable expectation, especially in an era when bullpens have become so important, stocked, and used.

 

Except that now we have 14 pitcher pitching staffs leaving 11 everyday players, 9 of which at least in the AL have to be in the lineup just to start a game. One of which has to be your backup Catcher. It is a massive mutation.

 

We want to "think' they are better at pitching because they throw so hard ....but for 20 pitches or so and then they are done. Its not like they suddenly developed the bionic arm that can throw that hard for even 50-60 pitches. Guys that can throw hard for multiple 10x of pitches are called STARTERS. They used to pitch every fourth day for anywhere from 4-9 innings unless they drank too much the night before and threw up on themselves in the dugout after a half inning on the mound. They would roundly criticize 4 inning stints and would spit on 5 inning stints instead of rewarding them. They always were called STARTERS. There are only so many of them to go around and in a 30+ team enterprise with multiple layers of minor leagues below them there are just not enough of them to go around.

 

The simple solution of expanding rosters won't work because everybody acknowledges that if they expanded rosters teams would universally.......just bring in more pitchers.

 

MLB has obviously now recognized the mess it has made via over-expansion and is trying feebly to correct in some sense. That is why we now have a rule requiring that a relief pitcher face at least three batters. THAT rule has nothing to do with length of game. That is a dodge. Its a feeble effort to keep teams from running amok filling their roster with even more pitchers. fHowever, unless MLB suffers a massive contraction of teams, I don't see a solution. I will be long in the grave before there is a massive contraction in the number of teams.

 

NOTHING they do is a real effort at dealing with length of game and until they deal with hitters picking their asses, scratching their balls, fixing their gloves and consulting with their dead relatives before actually standing in the box to hit, length of games will continue to evade them.

Edited July 26, 2021 by jung

[iortiz]

However you want to describe or define today's game, it was still a terrific and needed win.

 

And, in case no one else has mentioned it, I will remind one and all that this fantastic rally was very much the product of the much maligned bottom of the Sox order.

 

Verdugo doubled, Renfroe doubled, Vazquez singled, and Cordero singled. All four of them scored runs that tied the game. Finally, Hernandez at the top of the order doubled, but then Plawecki (pinch-hitting for Duran who had K'd all three times) ground out (allowing Cordero to score the tying run), Bogie flied out (scoring Hernandez with the go ahead run), and Devers ground out.

I put the rep of the 8th inning on both NESN and YES.

 

Quoting NESN announcers, "It was the best game of the year". YES announcers were kind of shock.

[Thunder]

I put the rep of the 8th inning on both NESN and YES.

 

Quoting NESN announcers, "It was the best game of the year". YES announcers were kind of shock.

 

John Sterling on Yankee radio had an even better reaction. It was something along the lines of "Well I would say this was unthinkable, but since it keeps happening, I can't"

[Maxbialystock]

Except that now we have 14 pitcher pitching staffs leaving 11 everyday players, 9 of which at least in the AL have to be in the lineup just to start a game. One of which has to be your backup Catcher. It is a massive mutation.

 

We want to "think' they are better at pitching because they throw so hard ....but for 20 pitches or so and then they are done. Its not like they suddenly developed the bionic arm that can throw that hard for even 50-60 pitches. Guys that can throw hard for multiple 10x of pitches are called STARTERS. They used to pitch every fourth day for anywhere from 4-9 innings unless they drank too much the night before and threw up on themselves in the dugout after a half inning on the mound. They would roundly criticize 4 inning stints and would spit on 5 inning stints instead of rewarding them. They always were called STARTERS. There are only so many of them to go around and in a 30+ team enterprise with multiple layers of minor leagues below them there are just not enough of them to go around.

 

The simple solution of expanding rosters won't work because everybody acknowledges that if they expanded rosters teams would universally.......just bring in more pitchers.

 

MLB has obviously now recognized the mess it has made via over-expansion and is trying feebly to correct in some sense. That is why we now have a rule requiring that a relief pitcher face at least three batters. THAT rule has nothing to do with length of game. That is a dodge. Its a feeble effort to keep teams from running amok filling their roster with even more pitchers. fHowever, unless MLB suffers a massive contraction of teams, I don't see a solution. I will be long in the grave before there is a massive contraction in the number of teams.

 

NOTHING they do is a real effort at dealing with length of game and until they deal with hitters picking their asses, scratching their balls, fixing their gloves and consulting with their dead relatives before actually standing in the box to hit, length of games will continue to evade them.

 

This sir, is a rant. I recognize the form because I indulge in it regularly.

 

I don't think many if any MLB teams have gone to 11 position players, which I agree would make no sense. I think 13 pitchers and 12 position players can work because 3 position players usually means 1 or more position players who don't play much. I might add that right now Plawecki only plays 1 of 4 games although he did pinch hit last night.

 

I disagree on the ills of expansion. Would you have MLB go back to 8 in the NL, 8 in the AL, and just a WS and no other playoffs. Of course, these days MLB is competing with other major sports for talented athletes, but on the other hand little league baseball is pervasive, not only in the USA, but in other countries. Plus in our hemisphere baseball has become the sport for hispanic athletes from other countries to hope for big bucks. So I think the talent is good enough.

 

Agree on speeding up the game, but there seem to be forces--commercials, MLBPA, whatever--which are averse to shorter games.

 

Three batters per reliever is I think an experiment, just like starting each extra half inning with a man on 2b and no one out. In the last two games between the Sox and Yankees, we acquired empirical evidence that facing three batters can be fraught with peril and completely change the tenor of a game. Saturday Cora pulled Eovaldi, who had a great game, and Ottavino destroyed it. Yesterday German was, astoundingly, almost as good for the Yankees as Eovaldi had been for the Sox. But Loaisiga came in with a 4-0 lead and a man on 2b with no outs and gave up 5 runs, one of them charged to German.

 

I do not agree MLB is in peril because of these rules or MLB teams' preference for pitching. The bigger peril is COVID 19, because it is apparently not going away (as we believed 3 months ago).