Major league innovations

[Bellhorn04]

The shift has been around since the 1920's. The famous "Williams Shift" actually predates the career of Ted Williams and is not named after him.

 

"The infield shift strategy is often associated with Ted Williams, but it was actually first employed against Cy Williams during the 1920s.[1][2] Cy Williams, a left-handed outfielder with the Chicago Cubs (1912–1917) and Philadelphia Phillies (1918–1930), was second only to Babe Ruth in major league career home runs from 1923 to 1928. Opposing defenses would shift 'practically to the entire right side' when he batted.[3]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infield_shift

 

C'mon guys, it's a silly argument to talk about how long the shift has been around.

 

Strikeouts and guys swinging for the fences have been around a long time too.

[notin]

C'mon guys, it's a silly argument to talk about how long the shift has been around.

 

Strikeouts and guys swinging for the fences have been around a long time too.

 

The bottom line is it's just silly to say "that defense is unfair because it makes it harder to get hits." That's the whole point of defense.

 

There was a time when the slider was introduced into baseball, and it was also harder to get hits. But some players evolved and just learned to hit them. And there are some stories out there that say the sudden increase in pitchers throwing hard-breaking sliders lead to a rise in players learning to switch hit. But no one ever banned the slider...

[Maxbialystock]

My concern is with the computerization of MLB as depicted in the movie Moneyball, as demonstrated in every game by very specific shifts for each batter and in how bullpens are employed. Computers told one of the managers in a 2019 WS game to pull his starter after 6 innings regardless of how well he was pitching.

 

O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason. That quotation doesn't quite get it, but my point is that baseball is marching toward the dehumanization of the game.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Maxbialystock

[notin]

My concern is with the computerization of MLB as depicted in the movie Moneyball, as demonstrated in every game by very specific shifts for each batter and in how bullpens are employed. Computers told one of the managers in a 2019 WS game to pull his starter after 6 innings regardless of how well he was pitching.

 

O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason. That quotation doesn't quite get it, but my point is that baseball is marching toward the dehumanization of the game.

 

Yes, the data analysis has gotten out of hand in MLB, although it has lead to some positive developments as well, such as teams finally valuing the walk. the NBA has seen a similar infux of massive amounts of data to position players on defense.

 

The difference is in the NBA, teams were quick to hire anyone who developed any new defensive metric before his techniques became more widespread. In MLB, th data analysis has become a lot more available to everyone and most teams are playing on a more level field with regards to datta analysis.

 

And while it feels dehumanizing, at the end of the day, the players still have to perform.

 

If I have one issue with it, to far too many players and coaches, the logic on how to beat the shift has turned into "hit it over the shift", typically by maximizing launch angle and exit velocity. Some irony in that logic that all the data analaysis and advancements in the game have suddenly caused it to revert to a 1970-80's style of just flat out overslugging the opposition...

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, the data analysis has gotten out of hand in MLB, although it has lead to some positive developments as well, such as teams finally valuing the walk. the NBA has seen a similar infux of massive amounts of data to position players on defense.

 

The difference is in the NBA, teams were quick to hire anyone who developed any new defensive metric before his techniques became more widespread. In MLB, th data analysis has become a lot more available to everyone and most teams are playing on a more level field with regards to datta analysis.

 

And while it feels dehumanizing, at the end of the day, the players still have to perform.

 

If I have one issue with it, to far too many players and coaches, the logic on how to beat the shift has turned into "hit it over the shift", typically by maximizing launch angle and exit velocity. Some irony in that logic that all the data analaysis and advancements in the game have suddenly caused it to revert to a 1970-80's style of just flat out overslugging the opposition...

 

And the bottom line is that MLB is averaging 8.7 runs a game this year. Which is pretty close to 1970's-1980's levels.

 

It's down from the last few years - almost certainly because they de-juiced the ball. Not sure why they did that if they're worried about offense.

[notin]

And the bottom line is that MLB is averaging 8.7 runs a game this year. Which is pretty close to 1970's-1980's levels.

 

It's down from the last few years - almost certainly because they de-juiced the ball. Not sure why they did that if they're worried about offense.

 

Or why shifts is some sort of big deal...

[mvp 78]

And the bottom line is that MLB is averaging 8.7 runs a game this year. Which is pretty close to 1970's-1980's levels.

 

It's down from the last few years - almost certainly because they de-juiced the ball. Not sure why they did that if they're worried about offense.

 

No f***ing clue. Makes no damn sense.

[mvp 78]

Or why shifts is some sort of big deal...

 

Shifts are fine. K's are fine.

 

Just decrease the time between pitches and the game would be more enjoyable.

[notin]

No f***ing clue. Makes no damn sense.

 

It messes us up at home?

 

I think we can agree a lot of people don't like seeing baseball get messed with. We've all seen plenty of people who decry sabermetrics, and those don't even take place on the field.

 

So now what I have noticed with all these shifts is balls I see fly jump off bats that I assume are going for hits are becoming routine ground outs and line drives caught easily by the second baseman playing out in right field. It creates an emotional swing where I go from being exited (or upset, if someone else is up) to see the ball jump off the bat, to suddenty watching a routine out that makes me feel the opposite emotion. I think maybe a lot of people get frustrated watching baseball this way...

[dgalehouse]

Hitting a baseball ain't easy. With bullpens today featuring a parade of flame throwers it just gets harder. The use of shifts certainly doesn't help matters either . It can be tough enough to just put the ball in play , much less " hit it where they ain't " to beat the shift . It is not unprecedented for sports to regulate the defensive alignments in order to enhance the offense and make the game more exciting. It is something that MLB should think about.

[moonslav59]

Shifts are fine. K's are fine.

 

Just decrease the time between pitches and the game would be more enjoyable.

 

It really is that simple.

 

They are over-thinking this one.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Hitting a baseball ain't easy. With bullpens today featuring a parade of flame throwers it just gets harder. The use of shifts certainly doesn't help matters either . It can be tough enough to just put the ball in play , much less " hit it where they ain't " to beat the shift . It is not unprecedented for sports to regulate the defensive alignments in order to enhance the offense and make the game more exciting. It is something that MLB should think about.

 

 

Zone defense is outlawed in the NBA.

[Bellhorn04]

Hitting a baseball ain't easy. With bullpens today featuring a parade of flame throwers it just gets harder. The use of shifts certainly doesn't help matters either . It can be tough enough to just put the ball in play , much less " hit it where they ain't " to beat the shift . It is not unprecedented for sports to regulate the defensive alignments in order to enhance the offense and make the game more exciting. It is something that MLB should think about.

 

Yes, you do have to please the fans. Without them you're kind of screwed.

[dgalehouse]

Zone defense is outlawed in the NBA.

 

Right.

[jad]

Zone defense is outlawed in the NBA.

 

No it isn't. It was ten years ago, but not now.

[moonslav59]

No it isn't. It was ten years ago, but not now.

 

It was almost 20 years ago.

[notin]

It was almost 20 years ago.

 

Correct. 2001-02.

 

You see them a lot now. Frankly, I find it appalling that the NBA disallowed zone defense but somehow permitted the appallingly boring Triangle Offense. I'm typically not one for outlawing a strategy, but if there is anything in any sport that just needs to be banned and all infractions hit with severe penalties anywhere from being locked in a room full of hungry crocodiles to removing body parts with carpentry tools, it's f***ing Triangle Offense...

[Bellhorn04]

No it isn't. It was ten years ago, but not now.

 

And they replaced it with a 3 second rule. I think his point stands. All the major sports tinker with their rules.

[jad]

And they replaced it with a 3 second rule. I think his point stands. All the major sports tinker with their rules.

 

 

Not a big basketball fan ,but i think they've always had the three second rule, no?

[Bellhorn04]

Everybody's different. I personally have no problem with the length of baseball games. I expect them to be slow and torturous and take up my whole evening.

 

My approval of the 3 batter rule has a lot to do with one man - Joe Freaking Maddon. In all my time of watching baseball, the most painful, depressing moments were watching him make 3 trips to the mound in an inning.

[Bellhorn04]

Not a big basketball fan ,but i think they've always had the three second rule, no?

 

This is a defensive three second rule.

[jad]

This is a defensive three second rule.

 

Ah, thanks. I had thought they always had that, both offense and defense (although if you only allow man-to-man defense, there would be no reason for it, I suppose, as there would be no way you could then get to the paint without being on anyone.).

[a700hitter]

I had suggested this a while back. I would much prefer a HR derby format in extra innings instead of the man on second base rule.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/04/mlb-experiment-knock-out-home-run-derby-extra-innings.html

[Thunder]

I had suggested this a while back. I would much prefer a HR derby format in extra innings instead of the man on second base rule.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/04/mlb-experiment-knock-out-home-run-derby-extra-innings.html

 

This team would lose more than they would win in that format

[notin]

And they replaced it with a 3 second rule. I think his point stands. All the major sports tinker with their rules.

 

The 3 second rule has been around for a long, long time (since the 1930’s) and was put in for player safety to keep the game from getting too physical.

 

Now the shot clock, that was added to stop Bob Cousy...

[Bellhorn04]

The 3 second rule has been around for a long, long time (since the 1930’s) and was put in for player safety to keep the game from getting too physical.

 

Now the shot clock, that was added to stop Bob Cousy...

 

The 3 second rule introduced to replace the rule against zone defense in 2001-2002 was a new one, I believe.

[notin]

The 3 second rule introduced to replace the rule against zone defense in 2001-2002 was a new one, I believe.

 

The NBA just needs to allow zone defenses and ban triangle offenses...

[mvp 78]

The NBA just needs to allow zone defenses and ban triangle offenses...

 

NBA needs to allow players to actually play defense. The game is too ticky tack now.