Rock Bottom, 2021 AL East

[mvp 78]

An even harder line in choosing bWAR over fWAR?

 

If we take both into account and simply add bWAR and fWAR:

 

Fernandez - 88.8

Vizquel - 88.1

Rollins - 97.0

Tejada - 86.8

Reyes - 81.3

Garciaparra - 86.8

 

Fernandez over Vizquel is a really hard line. And then the Tejada selection makes less sense, unless you really like the number 86.8.

 

Of course, using this criteria Toby Harrah (51.4 bWAR, 45.7 fWAR, 97.1 total WAR) becomes the most egregious omission at shortstop, just edging out Rollins...

 

The most egregious omissions are Bill Dahlen and Jack Glasscock (HOF name BTW). That's neither here nor there. I'm just saying that Vizquel doesn't belong in. Those other guys probably don't either.

[mvp 78]

All Star games?

 

Come on! That's fan voting!! And the "every team" thing clouds it even further

 

Eric Chavez played 16 years, won 5 Gold Gloves and had 38.4 bWAR, and played in 2 fewer all star games than Scott Cooper, who had 6.2 career bWAR. Is this really a criterion you are going to use?

 

I'm sorry, I thought it was the Hall of FAME.

[notin]

The most egregious omissions are Bill Dahlen and Jack Glasscock (HOF name BTW). That's neither here nor there. I'm just saying that Vizquel doesn't belong in. Those other guys probably don't either.

 

I only went as far back as 1970. Harrah did come up in 1969, but did not do much that year (1 plate appearance)...

[Kimmi]

By solid, he meant "hands of stone" and "concrete shoes."

 

Well played.

[mvp 78]

I only went as far back as 1970. Harrah did come up in 1969, but did not do much that year (1 plate appearance)...

 

Harrah actually had more games at 3b, so he's listed there on the baseball reference list I'm using.

[mvp 78]

I just looked at Harrah's 1980 Topps cards and I don't remember him at all.

[notin]

I'm sorry, I thought it was the Hall of FAME.

 

Well, if we are going to be so literal about the name, then we have to get Barry Bonds in there now!!

 

And with regards to All Star games, that oenalizes players from teams that have smaller fan bases. Chaves (again, 38.4 fWAR) lost in all Star game balloting Shea Hillenbrand in 2002. In 2002, Chavez won a Gold Glove and a Silver Slugger, meaning he was regarded as the best hitting 3B and the best fielding 3B. But hey, the fans preferred Hillenbrand over him.

 

And Hillenbrand was chosen over Chavez again in 2005, a season in which Chavez won another Gold Glove (an award Hillenbrand never won) but lost the Silver Slugger to ARod.

 

So to sum up:

 

Eric Chavez - 0 All Star games, 38.4 bWAR

Scott Cooper - 2 All Star games, 6.2 bWAR

Shea Hillenbrand - 2 All Star games, 6.3 bWAR

 

Not buying into this criterion...

[notin]

Harrah actually had more games at 3b, so he's listed there on the baseball reference list I'm using.

 

Fair point, although this exercise has still given me a lot more respect for his career as well as that of Jimmy Rollins...

[mvp 78]

Well, if we are going to be so literal about the name, then we have to get Barry Bonds in there now!!

 

And with regards to All Star games, that oenalizes players from teams that have smaller fan bases. Chaves (again, 38.4 fWAR) lost in all Star game balloting Shea Hillenbrand in 2002. In 2002, Chavez won a Gold Glove and a Silver Slugger, meaning he was regarded as the best hitting 3B and the best fielding 3B. But hey, the fans preferred Hillenbrand over him.

 

And Hillenbrand was chosen over Chavez again in 2005, a season in which Chavez won another Gold Glove (an award Hillenbrand never won) but lost the Silver Slugger to ARod.

 

So to sum up:

 

Eric Chavez - 0 All Star games, 38.4 bWAR

Scott Cooper - 2 All Star games, 6.2 bWAR

Shea Hillenbrand - 2 All Star games, 6.3 bWAR

 

Not buying into this criterion...

 

Yes, Bonds should be in. 100%.

 

No, ASG aren't the only basis. It certainly helps a player's cause though. 2 ASG are nothing. Guys who have played in 10+ ASG? They probably HOF guys.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I just looked at Harrah's 1980 Topps cards and I don't remember him at all.

 

Harrah was a star palindrome! But not as good as Taco Cat.

[mvp 78]

Fair point, although this exercise has still given me a lot more respect for his career as well as that of Jimmy Rollins...

 

Rollins, Ortiz, Tex and ARod are all on next year's ballot. It will be interesting to see how many votes each get.

 

Aside from ARod, the other guys are probably behind Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Helton, Jones, Sosa, Rolen, Abreu, Manny. I think Ortiz's "fame" could push him into that group somewhere.

 

Bill James' HOF Monitor (take with large grain of salt) ranks them as:

ARod

Bonds

Clemens

Manny

Sosa

Helton

Ortiz

Schilling

Sheffield

Pettitte (yuck)

Kent

Rollins

Vizquel

Jones

Tex

Pierzynski

Wagner

Rolen

Howard

Nathan

Abreu

[notin]

Yes, Bonds should be in. 100%.

 

No, ASG aren't the only basis. It certainly helps a player's cause though. 2 ASG are nothing. Guys who have played in 10+ ASG? They probably HOF guys.

 

Tejada has 6. Vizquel had 3.

 

For both of these players, the ASG was tough because of the presence of Jeter, Nomar and ARod. Even Tejada did not start making the team regularly until Nomar fell apart physically and then ARod moved to 3B...

[notin]

Harrah was a star palindrome! But not as good as Taco Cat.

 

But better than Mark Salas and Rob Nen!!

 

Edit: Does this mean you play Exploding Kittens?

[mvp 78]

Tejada has 6. Vizquel had 3.

 

For both of these players, the ASG was tough because of the presence of Jeter, Nomar and ARod. Even Tejada did not start making the team regularly until Nomar fell apart physically and then ARod moved to 3B...

 

So all things being equal, Tejada was a more popular player. That should push him over the finish line, but I don't think either guy has a great case.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Rollins, Ortiz, Tex and ARod are all on next year's ballot. It will be interesting to see how many votes each get.

 

Aside from ARod, the other guys are probably behind Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Helton, Jones, Sosa, Rolen, Abreu, Manny. I think Ortiz's "fame" could push him into that group somewhere.

 

Bill James' HOF Monitor (take with large grain of salt) ranks them as:

ARod

Bonds

Clemens

Manny

Sosa

Helton

Ortiz

Schilling

Sheffield

Pettitte (yuck)

Kent

Rollins

Vizquel

Jones

Tex

Pierzynski

Wagner

Rolen

Howard

Nathan

Abreu

 

WAR makes a decent case for Andruw Jones. The only position players on the list with more WAR are Bonds, ARod, Rolen and Manny.

 

If Ozzie Smith is in because he's the greatest defensive shortstop of all-time, how can we keep out the greatest defensive outfielder of all-time (based on DWAR)? Voters into analytics surely take WAR into consideration; it's also why we can be sure none of them would have voted for Harold Baines...

[mvp 78]

WAR makes a decent case for Andruw Jones. The only position players on the list with more WAR are Bonds, ARod, Rolen and Manny.

 

If Ozzie Smith is in because he's the greatest defensive shortstop of all-time, how can we keep out the greatest defensive outfielder of all-time (based on DWAR)? Voters into analytics surely take WAR into consideration; it's also why we can be sure none of them would have voted for Harold Baines...

 

Andruw Jones should be in the HOF. 100%

[moonslav59]

It's always going to be easy to find the worst guy in the HOF and say ____ is better.

 

The problem is, some don't belong in the first place, so does that mean we should allow other "undeserving" players in, too?

[mvp 78]

It's always going to be easy to find the worst guy in the HOF and say ____ is better.

 

The problem is, some don't belong in the first place, so does that mean we should allow other "undeserving" players in, too?

 

Hell no, brother moon! Preach!

[moonslav59]

Hell no, brother moon! Preach!

 

To me, the HOF is not for "the best." It is for the best of the best.

[mvp 78]

To me, the HOF is not for "the best." It is for the best of the best.

 

Yes, Small Hall, brother moon! Amen!

[moonslav59]

Yes, Small Hall, brother moon! Amen!

 

Not to open a can of worms, but I don't even think Cal belongs.

[notin]

WAR makes a decent case for Andruw Jones. The only position players on the list with more WAR are Bonds, ARod, Rolen and Manny.

 

If Ozzie Smith is in because he's the greatest defensive shortstop of all-time, how can we keep out the greatest defensive outfielder of all-time (based on DWAR)? Voters into analytics surely take WAR into consideration; it's also why we can be sure none of them would have voted for Harold Baines...

 

Unless Mrs. Baines has a vote...

[dgalehouse]

They have Hall of Fames for a lot of things now. Some of them evidently have a very low bar. Baseball's Hall , while not without it's flaws , is probably more legit than most.

[notin]

Not to open a can of worms, but I don't even think Cal belongs.

 

Eldred or Quantrill?

[mvp 78]

Eldred or Quantrill?

 

Cal Ripken Sr.

[moonslav59]

All of the below.

 

Yes, the HOF is small town in moonslav, USA.

[mvp 78]

All of the below.

 

Yes, the HOF is small town in moonslav, USA.

 

It's a miniature Mt Rushmore with Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron.

[moonslav59]

It's a miniature Mt Rushmore with Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron.

 

Can we squeeze in Ty Cobb?

[mvp 78]

Can we squeeze in Ty Cobb?

 

It's your chainsaw carved mini-mountain.

[moonslav59]

It's your chainsaw carved mini-mountain.

 

How many are in the HOF, now- as players?

 

(My guess is, I'd cut it by 33-50%.)