Rock Bottom, 2021 AL East

[mvp 78]

I agree with those who can't imagine the Sox switching Devers and Dalbec during the season. Devers is a third baseman, period. He's capable of being solid, and sometimes spectacular. Can we agree his defensive lapses aren't physical, since he has elite reflexes and a strong arm? He just needs maturity, and probably continued guidance from coaches and teammates. If he needs a break, the versatile vets will spell him.

 

If Rafie is borderline brutal all season, then the Sox may choose to make changes next offseason... just like the Yankees will when they finally admit they can't win with Torres at shortstop (he's no Jeter -- a mostly solid, sometimes overrated defender, with a knack for making clutch plays; Torres just isn't good).

 

Devers always starts off slow defensively and offensively. Just need to get through April and he'll turn it around.

[notin]

I agree with Notin and am fine with Devers, errors and all, and Bogaerts, with his limited range, on the left side of the infield. As we have just learned, the backup DH should be Vazquez with JD Martinez moving to LF.

 

I am more and more convinced no one on talksox has ever heard or read the expression, "good field, no hit," which is shorthand for guys who usually don't get to the majors and never to the HOF, which is reserved for hitters and pitchers. Are there some great fielders in the HOF? Absolutely. But their bats got them in.

 

Is Willie Mays my favorite HOF'er? He sure is--precisely because he was a bona fide five tool player whose most famous play was grabbing Wertz's 1954 World Series long drive deep into the vast expanse of the Polo Grounds centerfield. Seeing a great defensive play is like reading a sonnet by Keats or Shakespeare, but only occasionally is it a game-winner.

 

I get your point, and the Hall has probably ignored some great defensive players with weak bats. But sometimes - probably more political than anything else - a player carried by his defensive skillset does get in.

 

For example, if I asked you which of these three players is NOT a Hall of Famer:

 

Player A: Played 23 seasons and had a career OPS+ of 105

Player B: Played 19 seasons with a career OPS+ of 87

Player C: Played 15 years with a career OPS+ of 144

 

You'd look at those number right away and say "Lance Berkman is the one not in the Hall of Fame, and he probably shouldn't be. And both Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith deserve it more because their defense made them both better overall players despite them both possessing offensive skills that were average or below average."

 

Which, of course, is the correct answer. (And also I would be impressed with how quick you got it.)

 

But when you also point out that several elite defensive players such as Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen and Omar Vizquel also failed to get into the Hall this year, and for all of them it was their 4th chance, while better hitters who couldn't field like Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, and Jim Thome were all elected over them, it does add a lot of merit to your point.

 

Conclusion: If you are a great fielder who struggles at the plate, your chances are helped substantially if you can do back flips on the field...

[mvp 78]

I get your point, and the Hall has probably ignored some great defensive players with weak bats. But sometimes - probably more political than anything else - a player carried by his defensive skillset does get in.

 

For example, if I asked you which of these three players is NOT a Hall of Famer:

 

Player A: Played 23 seasons and had a career OPS+ of 105

Player B: Played 19 seasons with a career OPS+ of 87

Player C: Played 15 years with a career OPS+ of 144

 

You'd look at those number right away and say "Lance Berkman is the one not in the Hall of Fame, and he probably shouldn't be. And both Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith deserve it more because their defense made them both better overall players despite them both possessing offensive skills that were average or below average."

 

Which, of course, is the correct answer. (And also I would be impressed with how quick you got it.)

 

But when you also point out that several elite defensive players such as Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen and Omar Vizquel also failed to get into the Hall this year, and for all of them it was their 4th chance, while better hitters who couldn't field like Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, and Jim Thome were all elected over them, it does add a lot of merit to your point.

 

Conclusion: If you are a great fielder who struggles at the plate, your chances are helped substantially if you can do back flips on the field...

 

Jones and Rolen should get in. Vizquel should not.

[notin]

Jones and Rolen should get in. Vizquel should not.

 

I don't agree, but not unreasonable. I'd put Vizquel in, too...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I get your point, and the Hall has probably ignored some great defensive players with weak bats. But sometimes - probably more political than anything else - a player carried by his defensive skillset does get in.

 

For example, if I asked you which of these three players is NOT a Hall of Famer:

 

Player A: Played 23 seasons and had a career OPS+ of 105

Player B: Played 19 seasons with a career OPS+ of 87

Player C: Played 15 years with a career OPS+ of 144

 

You'd look at those number right away and say "Lance Berkman is the one not in the Hall of Fame, and he probably shouldn't be. And both Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith deserve it more because their defense made them both better overall players despite them both possessing offensive skills that were average or below average."

 

Which, of course, is the correct answer. (And also I would be impressed with how quick you got it.)

 

But when you also point out that several elite defensive players such as Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen and Omar Vizquel also failed to get into the Hall this year, and for all of them it was their 4th chance, while better hitters who couldn't field like Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, and Jim Thome were all elected over them, it does add a lot of merit to your point...

 

Maybe the best examples to compare and contrast for Sox fans -- before modern times for most posters -- are two outfielders who played together: Jim Rice and Dwight Evans. I'm sure someone more stat savvy than me can find numbers to prove Rice deserves to be in the Hall, while Evans does not. But I do know their careers are close - Rice 47.7 WAR, .854 OPS vs. Evans 67.1 WAR, .840 OPS.

 

Defensively, it is no contest: Dewey was the best rightfielder in the AL for a decade, while Rice was never considered above-average (but he practiced to learn how to play the Monster, just like Evans practiced to become the slugger that led the AL in extra-base hits in the 1980s).

 

This might be a good poll for old fans who watched the entire careers of Rice and Evans: who was the better all-around player?

[notin]

Maybe the best examples to compare and contrast for Sox fans -- before modern times for most posters -- are two outfielders who played together: Jim Rice and Dwight Evans. I'm sure someone more stat savvy than me can find numbers to prove Rice deserves to be in the Hall, while Evans does not. But I do know their careers are close - Rice 47.7 WAR, .854 OPS vs. Evans 67.1 WAR, .840 OPS.

 

Defensively, it is no contest: Dewey was the best rightfielder in the AL for a decade, while Rice was never considered above-average (but he practiced to learn how to play the Monster, just like Evans practiced to become the slugger that led the AL in extra-base hits in the 1980s).

 

This might be a good poll for old fans who watched the entire careers of Rice and Evans: who was the better all-around player?

 

Despite their close career numbers, Rice was the better hitter. I look at Rice as the hitter you built a lineup around, and Evans as the guy you built around someone like Rice with. Evans was more well-rounded, but I like Rice better.

 

Bu I still vote for Dewey to be in the Hall given the chance...

[notin]

Devers always starts off slow defensively and offensively. Just need to get through April and he'll turn it around.

 

He struggled until mid-August last year!!!

 

[notin]

Jones and Rolen should get in. Vizquel should not.

 

So would you put Ozzie Smith in the Hall?

[mvp 78]

I don't agree, but not unreasonable. I'd put Vizquel in, too...

 

Nomar, Rollins, Tejada, Tony Fernandez all belong in the HOF before Vizquel.

[mvp 78]

So would you put Ozzie Smith in the Hall?

 

Ozzie Smith: bWAR 76.9, WAA 42, 15 ASG

Vizquel: bWAR 45.6, WAA 5.3, 3 ASG

 

Yeah, Smith is in. Those two are NOT comparable.

[mvp 78]

Despite their close career numbers, Rice was the better hitter. I look at Rice as the hitter you built a lineup around, and Evans as the guy you built around someone like Rice with. Evans was more well-rounded, but I like Rice better.

 

Bu I still vote for Dewey to be in the Hall given the chance...

 

Dewey should be in. At his peak, Jim Rice was one of the top 2-3 players in the game. Evans never reached those heights, but was solid for a long time.

[mvp 78]

Tony Gwynn: 69.2 bWAR, OPS+ 132

Dwight Evans: 67.1 bWAR, OPS+ 127

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Despite their close career numbers, Rice was the better hitter. I look at Rice as the hitter you built a lineup around, and Evans as the guy you built around someone like Rice with. Evans was more well-rounded, but I like Rice better.

 

Bu I still vote for Dewey to be in the Hall given the chance...

 

In his peak, Rice was a HOF hitter. He was probably the most feared man in the batter's box in the AL, and guys like Hawk Harrelson spread his legend about check-swing broken bats and full-swing snapped golf clubs. I think it was said Rice could drive a golf ball further than anyone on the pro circuit.

 

Evans had a slightly longer career, so it only seemed he was more productive -- 385 HRs to 382 for Rice. Evans was also a late-bloomer: 235 homers in his 30s; Rice had 145.

 

As for Cooperstown consideration, Evans is an odd candidate: a Hall of Fame fielder in the '70s, and a Hall of Fame slugger in the '80s.

[notin]

Nomar, Rollins, Tejada, Tony Fernandez all belong in the HOF before Vizquel.

 

Fernandez over Vizquel?

 

Career fWAR

 

Fernandez - 43.5

Vizquel - 42.5

 

I am fine with using WAR as HOF selection criteria, but you appear to have a pretty hard line with those two.

 

Also does that mean you think Jose Reyes (43.8 fWAR) belongs in ahead of Vizquel and Fernandez?

[notin]

Nomar, Rollins, Tejada, Tony Fernandez all belong in the HOF before Vizquel.

 

And how does Tejada (39.7 fWAR) get ahead of Vizquel?

[moonslav59]

I agree with those who can't imagine the Sox switching Devers and Dalbec during the season. Devers is a third baseman, period. He's capable of being solid, and sometimes spectacular. Can we agree his defensive lapses aren't physical, since he has elite reflexes and a strong arm? He just needs maturity, and probably continued guidance from coaches and teammates. If he needs a break, the versatile vets will spell him.

 

If Rafie is borderline brutal all season, then the Sox may choose to make changes next offseason... just like the Yankees will when they finally admit they can't win with Torres at shortstop (he's no Jeter -- a mostly solid, sometimes overrated defender, with a knack for making clutch plays; Torres just isn't good).

 

I agree, but throwing accuracy may be "physical."

 

Again, I am not for moving him mid season and may not be for moving him this off season, either, if he turns things around on defense.

[mvp 78]

Fernandez over Vizquel?

 

Career fWAR

 

Fernandez - 43.5

Vizquel - 42.5

 

I am fine with using WAR as HOF selection criteria, but you appear to have a pretty hard line with those two.

 

Also does that mean you think Jose Reyes (43.8 fWAR) belongs in ahead of Vizquel and Fernandez?

 

No Reyes has a career bWAR of 37.5. He's not even close. He's not even in the Hall of Very Good.

[Maxbialystock]

I’ve gone from wanting to trade JDM for old used chewing gum to thinking the guy is inspiring a. Close knit team .I am impressed at team chemistry at the end of these games it’s been undeniable ....something you can’t count for in sports is the will to win for each other .im very intrigued.

 

I can't comment on team chemistry this year, but can say I emphatically believe JDM's bat was the key to the 2018 season, maybe the best Sox season ever, because his hitting improved the rest of the lineup. He can do the same for this year's lineup even though it can't be as good as the 2018 one.

 

JDM is also more than happy to play in the outfield. Not much range, but a pretty good arm. So there he was in left field two games ago when Vazquez DH'd in a day game after a night game which he caught, all 12 innings of it. I might add David Ortiz was also pretty decent at 1B when needed.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Maxbialystock

[notin]

In his peak, Rice was a HOF hitter. He was probably the most feared man in the batter's box in the AL, and guys like Hawk Harrelson spread his legend about check-swing broken bats and full-swing snapped golf clubs. I think it was said Rice could drive a golf ball further than anyone on the pro circuit.

 

Evans had a slightly longer career, so it only seemed he was more productive -- 385 HRs to 382 for Rice. Evans was also a late-bloomer: 235 homers in his 30s; Rice had 145.

 

As for Cooperstown consideration, Evans is an odd candidate: a Hall of Fame fielder in the '70s, and a Hall of Fame slugger in the '80s.

 

Defesive metrics for Evans' career were pretty much non-existant, but he did win more Gold Gloves in the 1980's (5) than he did in the 1970's (3).

 

But then I think the award was a little more of a popularity contest back then...

[mvp 78]

And how does Tejada (39.7 fWAR) get ahead of Vizquel?

 

Tejada:

47.1 bWAR, 15.9 WAA, 6 ASG. All better than Vizquel.

[mvp 78]

Also, I wouldn't put Tejada/Nomar/Tony Fernandez in the HOF, but they all have a better case than Vizquel.

[Kimmi]

I agree with those who can't imagine the Sox switching Devers and Dalbec during the season. Devers is a third baseman, period. He's capable of being solid, and sometimes spectacular. Can we agree his defensive lapses aren't physical, since he has elite reflexes and a strong arm? He just needs maturity, and probably continued guidance from coaches and teammates. If he needs a break, the versatile vets will spell him.

 

If Rafie is borderline brutal all season, then the Sox may choose to make changes next offseason... just like the Yankees will when they finally admit they can't win with Torres at shortstop (he's no Jeter -- a mostly solid, sometimes overrated defender, with a knack for making clutch plays; Torres just isn't good).

 

Well said 5GG. I completely agree.

 

Except for the part about Jeter being a mostly solid defender.

[mvp 78]

Well said 5GG. I completely agree.

 

Except for the part about Jeter being a mostly solid defender.

 

By solid, he meant "hands of stone" and "concrete shoes."

[notin]

No Reyes has a career bWAR of 37.5. He's not even close. He's not even in the Hall of Very Good.

 

An even harder line in choosing bWAR over fWAR?

 

If we take both into account and simply add bWAR and fWAR:

 

Fernandez - 88.8

Vizquel - 88.1

Rollins - 97.0

Tejada - 86.8

Reyes - 81.3

Garciaparra - 86.8

 

Fernandez over Vizquel is a really hard line. And then the Tejada selection makes less sense, unless you really like the number 86.8.

 

Of course, using this criteria Toby Harrah (51.4 bWAR, 45.7 fWAR, 97.1 total WAR) becomes the most egregious omission at shortstop, just edging out Rollins...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Defesive metrics for Evans' career were pretty much non-existant, but he did win more Gold Gloves in the 1980's (5) than he did in the 1970's (3).

 

But then I think the award was a little more of a popularity contest back then...

 

I know, that's why I didn't mention the GGs (despite my name). A really good argument could be who was the better all-timer in right: Dewey or Mookie? Betts had more speed and range -- or did he? Evans was a big guy for his era, with longer strides and great jumps. At least we know he had a better arm -- or did he? Evans didn't chuck 16-pound bowling balls around every winter...

[moonslav59]

I know, that's why I didn't mention the GGs (despite my name). A really good argument could be who was the better all-timer in right: Dewey or Mookie? Betts had more speed and range -- or did he? Evans was a big guy for his era, with longer strides and great jumps. At least we know he had a better arm -- or did he? Evans didn't chuck 16-pound bowling balls around every winter...

 

Let's see how Betts ages.

 

Dewey got better in his mid 30's. His defense never waned.

[notin]

Tejada:

47.1 bWAR, 15.9 WAA, 6 ASG. All better than Vizquel.

 

All Star games?

 

Come on! That's fan voting!! And the "every team" thing clouds it even further

 

Eric Chavez played 16 years, won 5 Gold Gloves and had 38.4 bWAR, and played in 2 fewer all star games than Scott Cooper, who had 6.2 career bWAR. Is this really a criterion you are going to use?

[notin]

I know, that's why I didn't mention the GGs (despite my name). A really good argument could be who was the better all-timer in right: Dewey or Mookie? Betts had more speed and range -- or did he? Evans was a big guy for his era, with longer strides and great jumps. At least we know he had a better arm -- or did he? Evans didn't chuck 16-pound bowling balls around every winter...

 

But Evans did golf left-handed so as to not mess up his swing.

 

Given how odd his swing and batting stance were, one has to wonder what exactly he was afraid of doing...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Let's see how Betts ages.

 

Dewey got better in his mid 30's. His defense never waned.

 

But he's so short -- he's doomed!

 

This way of thinking is also why I assume if the Sox draft a shortstop, it will be one of those long, lean high schoolers over Matt McLain...

[notin]

By solid, he meant "hands of stone" and "concrete shoes."

 

I'm mad at myself for not coming up with this line first...