Yanks acquire Jameson Taillon

[moonslav59]

Kimmi is one of the last bastion of Sox homers who thinks the Sox have a chance in 21, so she’s projecting her hopes rather than real likelihood’s or what she actually knows is true.

 

You cannot keep all your prospects. 2 were already on the 40 man and Smith could have needed to be added by the end of 21. And we dealt NONE of our top 14 prospects. Zero, zilch, nada. And we got a guy with ace stuff and ace upside who will leave Pitt and adopt the same philosophy that Cole did when he left Pitt. This kid is healthy now and under control for two seasons. I’m expecting huge things out of him

 

I am, too, but my point was about this deal being pretty close to a zero risk deal.

 

You have so many good prospects and your 40 man roster is deep. You'd likely have had to DFA or trade away equals to the guys you gave PIT for Taillon.

 

Frankly, I was shocked at how little they took back. I wish the Sox had offered more.

 

I do think Taillon will do very well, but if never throws a pitch for the Yanks, you barely lost anything. Your SP'er depth is so deep, it's not like you structured your team around Taillon's success.

[jacksonianmarch]

I am, too, but my point was about this deal being pretty close to a zero risk deal.

 

You have so many good prospects and your 40 man roster is deep. You'd likely have had to DFA or trade away equals to the guys you gave PIT for Taillon.

 

Frankly, I was shocked at how little they took back. I wish the Sox had offered more.

 

I do think Taillon will do very well, but if never throws a pitch for the Yanks, you barely lost anything. Your SP'er depth is so deep, it's not like you structured your team around Taillon's success.

 

I agree with everything in your post. Spot on

[moonslav59]

I agree with everything in your post. Spot on

 

Maybe I need to re-examine my thoughts.

 

LOL!

[Bellhorn04]

It was a sterling move by Cashman, without a doubt.

[notin]

Kimmi is one of the last bastion of Sox homers who thinks the Sox have a chance in 21, so she’s projecting her hopes rather than real likelihood’s or what she actually knows is true.

 

You cannot keep all your prospects. 2 were already on the 40 man and Smith could have needed to be added by the end of 21. And we dealt NONE of our top 14 prospects. Zero, zilch, nada. And we got a guy with ace stuff and ace upside who will leave Pitt and adopt the same philosophy that Cole did when he left Pitt. This kid is healthy now and under control for two seasons. I’m expecting huge things out of him

 

I wanted Taillon in Boston, but pretending he is healthy does not make it so. Part of his availability was due to the significant health risk, which is why Cherington traded him NOW instead of waiting until July or until next season. His salary for 2021 is only $2.25 mill, so it's not like this is some sort of huge savings. Get real. Colin Moran makes more money than Taillon! Colin Freakin' Moran!!!!! And when the dust settles, Steve Brault and Chad Kuhl likely as well. But those guys are all good bets to make it throguh a season so the impetus to deal immediately them is lessened. And THAT is why the Yankees got him so quickly and so cheaply, and probably also why a lot of other teams did not even get involved in the bidding, including the Red Sox. Do you honestly think those borderline Yankee prospects represented a better offer than any other team could have made for a healthy starting pticher who was a former #2 overall pick and makes less than $3mill and has 2 full seasons of control?

 

Your post above actually makes it sound like you do.

 

Those multi-TJ pitchers do not have long shelf lives. Taillon is good, and he is a worthwhile gamble. But there is the reason he was available now and came so cheaply, and also why a lot of teams backed off...

Edited January 26, 2021 by notin

[moonslav59]

I wanted Taillon in Boston, but pretending he is healthy does not make it so. Part of his availability was due to the significant health risk, which is why Cherington traded him NOW instead of waiting until July or until next season. His salary for 2021 is only $2.25 mill, so it's not like this is some sort of huge savings. Get real. Colin Moran makes more money than Taillon! Colin Freakin' Moran!!!!! And when the dust settles, Steve Brault and Chad Kuhl likely as well. But those guys are all good bets to make it throguh a season so the impetus to deal immediately them is lessened. And THAT is why the Yankees got him so quickly and so cheaply, and probably also why a lot of other teams did not even get involved in the bidding, including the Red Sox. Do you honestly think those borderline Yankee prospects represented a better offer than any other team could have made for a healthy starting pticher who was a former #2 overall pick and makes less than $3mill and has 2 full seasons of control?

 

Your post above actually makes it sound like you do.

 

Those multi-TJ pitchers do not have long shelf lives. Taillon is good, and he is a worthwhile gamble. But there is the reason he was available now and came so cheaply, and also why a lot of teams backed off...

 

The one thing I find puzzling, is how Jacko is so high on Taillon (2 TJs) but so low on Sale (1 TJ).

 

I'm high on both.

[notin]

The one thing I find puzzling, is how Jacko is so high on Taillon (2 TJs) but so low on Sale (1 TJ).

 

I'm high on both.

 

Why could you possibly find that puzzling? (Hint: It has to do with pinstripes.)

 

If the Sox had been the team to acquire Taillon, he would be making long medically-based posts about how much of a risk it was...

[moonslav59]

Why could you possibly find that puzzling? (Hint: It has to do with pinstripes.)

 

If the Sox had been the team to acquire Taillon, he would be making long medically-based posts about how much of a risk it was...

 

That is true. It should not be puzzling.

[jacksonianmarch]

The one thing I find puzzling, is how Jacko is so high on Taillon (2 TJs) but so low on Sale (1 TJ).

 

I'm high on both.

 

Sale had a shoulder injury that sapped his power prior to TJS

[moonslav59]

Sale had a shoulder injury that sapped his power prior to TJS

 

His velocity barely dropped, his K rate rose, but you keep saying this.

[jacksonianmarch]

His velocity barely dropped, his K rate rose, but you keep saying this.

 

Let's be honest, his velocity was affected. He went from being able to throw easy cheese to needing to ramp it up to reach the same velo and it cost him his command. Very strong chance he comes back with low velo. Either way, he is still effective, but he isnt a 6+ WAR starter without the heat

[moonslav59]

Let's be honest, his velocity was affected. He went from being able to throw easy cheese to needing to ramp it up to reach the same velo and it cost him his command. Very strong chance he comes back with low velo. Either way, he is still effective, but he isnt a 6+ WAR starter without the heat

 

The velo charts just do not support your claim. His velo did dip from his previous 1-3 years but was the same as his earlier years when he was still Cy Young material.

 

His K rate has been his highest the last 3 years.

 

How was he K'ing people without "ramping it up?" (And, if he was K'ing people without ramping it up, maybe it proves he doesn't need top velo to be great.)

 

Let's be honest, yes. These graphs don't lie:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/chris-sale/10603/graphs?pitchgraphs=true&statArr=&legend=1&split=base&time=daily&start=2012&end=2019&rtype=mult&gt1=15&dStatArray=FA&ymin=&ymax=

[notin]

Let's be honest, his velocity was affected. He went from being able to throw easy cheese to needing to ramp it up to reach the same velo and it cost him his command. Very strong chance he comes back with low velo. Either way, he is still effective, but he isnt a 6+ WAR starter without the heat

 

Sale's velocity has been 93-95 mph most of his career. The two years he averaged below that range were 2012 and 2016, and he combined for 10 fWAR in those two seasons.

 

So if you want to argue he is a 5 fWAR pitcher and not a 6 fWAR pitcher, I don't think it is going to crush us...

[Kimmi]

Actually, they don't need Taillon to throw one pitch, this year, so I don't see them structuring their team around him.

 

Yes, if one of these long shot prospects comes through, they could lose something, but the Yanks have a much stronger and deeper farm than us, so losing these 4 are hardly a blip on their screen.

 

I can see your point, but I don't see much of a "risk" at all.

 

I'd have given much more than what the Yanks gave up, and that might have been a "risk," so maybe that's why I'm viewing it this way.

 

They might not need Taillon to throw a pitch. On the other hand, the rest of their staff behind Cole are far from guaranteed.

 

That's cool if you see it as zero risk. I don't.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi is one of the last bastion of Sox homers who thinks the Sox have a chance in 21, so she’s projecting her hopes rather than real likelihood’s or what she actually knows is true.

 

You cannot keep all your prospects. 2 were already on the 40 man and Smith could have needed to be added by the end of 21. And we dealt NONE of our top 14 prospects. Zero, zilch, nada. And we got a guy with ace stuff and ace upside who will leave Pitt and adopt the same philosophy that Cole did when he left Pitt. This kid is healthy now and under control for two seasons. I’m expecting huge things out of him

 

As I posted before, this is a good get for the Yankees. But to post thing like this is a steal for Cashman is silly.

[moonslav59]

Sale's velocity has been 93-95 mph most of his career. The two years he averaged below that range were 2012 and 2016, and he combined for 10 fWAR in those two seasons.

 

So if you want to argue he is a 5 fWAR pitcher and not a 6 fWAR pitcher, I don't think it is going to crush us...

 

You said it better than I did.

 

I'm also not so sure we can read too much into Sale's recent numbers as he was returning from some down time, yet not all his 2019 numbers were bad.

 

His 13.3 K rate was his second highest of his career- second only to 2018.

 

His 2.3 BB/9 was his worst since 2012, but very close to his career 2.1 mark.

 

His K/BB ratio was 5.89, which is better than his career 5.37 mark and 4th best of his career.

 

His 3.39 FIP seems concerning, but even that was not his worst season and was not all that much higher than his career 2.90 mark.

 

WHIP? 1.086, which is very close to his career 1.035 WHIP. His OPS against was .532, and we're supposed to think this signals a complete breakdown of his ability to "ramp it up?" Plus, he was actually getting better towards the end of 2018 (.466 last 7 games) He had a .695 OPS against in 2019, but finished the season with 25 Ks in his last 14.2 IP (2BB + 7 H).

 

I realize, he could be toast. We've been hearing his violent arm action would lead to severe injury for years and years. Maybe his time is up, but the guy has already shown he could and did comeback from the first injury, and coming back from TJS is now pretty commonplace.

 

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

They might not need Taillon to throw a pitch. On the other hand, the rest of their staff behind Cole are far from guaranteed.

 

That's cool if you see it as zero risk. I don't.

 

Close to zero risk.

 

They gave up next to nothing, and I doubt there was someone better available for what they gave up.

 

Yes, they have many question marks, but they have 8 choices for their last 4 rotation slots. Taillon is just one.

[moonslav59]

As I posted before, this is a good get for the Yankees. But to post thing like this is a steal for Cashman is silly.

 

Yes, calling it just a steal was silly: it was grand larceny.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, calling it just a steal was silly: it was grand larceny.

 

 

So you think it was a terrible job by Ben, then.

[moonslav59]

So you think it was a terrible job by Ben, then.

 

It looks that way, but I don't know what the other offers were, or if he had a gun to his head about cutting salary, but yes, he got robbed.

 

I also view this as other GMs, including Bloom, missing a grand opportunity.

 

Taillon has questions, but this is not a 1 year and done guy. He has 2 years left and is ace material, if healthy.

[Bellhorn04]

It looks that way, but I don't know what the other offers were, or if he had a gun to his head about cutting salary, but yes, he got robbed.

 

I also view this as other GMs, including Bloom, missing a grand opportunity.

 

Taillon has questions, but this is not a 1 year and done guy. He has 2 years left and is ace material, if healthy.

 

You think Bloom should have traded 4 prospects for a guy who's gone after 2022? Not really a future-oriented move.

 

Ben may have rated the Yankee prospects he got higher than their published rankings.

[moonslav59]

You think Bloom should have traded 4 prospects for a guy who's gone after 2022? Not really a future-oriented move.

 

Ben may have rated the Yankee prospects he got higher than their published rankings.

 

I think the return was worse than 4 Michael Chavises.

 

I stand ready to apologize, if one of these 4 amounts to anything more than squat.

[mvp 78]

You think Bloom should have traded 4 prospects for a guy who's gone after 2022? Not really a future-oriented move.

 

Ben may have rated the Yankee prospects he got higher than their published rankings.

 

And for a 29 year old guy with only 466 innings in MLB and risky health?

[notin]

Yes, calling it just a steal was silly: it was grand larceny.

 

 

No.

 

They paid a low price for a high risk pitcher.

 

Taillon was not a salary dump; he was an injury dump. The Pirates have a handful of players who make more or will after their arb hearings, so moving Taillon and his two seasons of control was not something demanding immediate financial attention. But the other players, including pitchers Chad Kuhl and Steve Brault, are more likely to last until July.

 

Cherington is a good evaluator of prospect talent. If he settled for this package of third tier Yankee prospects, it was because no one would give him anything better. And Cashman himself did not offer better because he is aware of the risk of a two-time TJ pitcher...

[a700hitter]

Cherington is a good evaluator of prospect talent. If he settled for this package of third tier Yankee prospects, it was because no one would give him anything better. And Cashman himself did not offer better because he is aware of the risk of a two-time TJ pitcher...

Ben is awful at evaluating pitching talent at every level. How about that Trey Ball -#7 overall in 2013 draft.

[Bellhorn04]

Ben is awful at evaluating pitching talent at every level. How about that Trey Ball -#7 overall in 2013 draft.

 

He had some plus moves though.

 

Signing Koji.

Trading Miller for E-Rod.

 

Blind squirrel.

[moonslav59]

No.

 

They paid a low price for a high risk pitcher.

 

Taillon was not a salary dump; he was an injury dump. The Pirates have a handful of players who make more or will after their arb hearings, so moving Taillon and his two seasons of control was not something demanding immediate financial attention. But the other players, including pitchers Chad Kuhl and Steve Brault, are more likely to last until July.

 

Cherington is a good evaluator of prospect talent. If he settled for this package of third tier Yankee prospects, it was because no one would give him anything better. And Cashman himself did not offer better because he is aware of the risk of a two-time TJ pitcher...

 

For PIT, even $2.5M is too much salary.

 

IMO, Ben got hosed, but I've been wrong often.

[mvp 78]

Ben is awful at evaluating pitching talent at every level. How about that Trey Ball -#7 overall in 2013 draft.

 

The only issue was they made a mistake in signing him as a pitcher. In retrospect, they should have just thrown him in the OF. At the time, they signed him for his "athleticism" not because of his pitching.

 

The draft is always a crapshoot. Sometimes they've hedged their bets and went for safe picks like Deven Marrero, but I'd rather them just go for the high upside guys every time.

[a700hitter]

He had some plus moves though.

 

Signing Koji.

Trading Miller for E-Rod.

 

Blind squirrel.

2 good moves in 4 years, and they only gave Koji the closer job after 2 other pigs (Hanrahan and Bailey) went down. He left the organization with almost no worthwhile pitching at any level.

[Bellhorn04]

For PIT, even $2.5M is too much salary.

 

IMO, Ben got hosed, but I've been wrong often.

 

With all due respect, to me this is "I'm smarter than the GM's" syndrome.

 

How about the Musgrove trade, how do you think Ben did on that one?