Mookie Betts and David Price have been traded to Dodgers

[jacksonianmarch]

Tony Clark (MLBPA) commenting that there is no reason for Mookie not to still be in Boston and if the CBT was the genesis of this trade then we really need to look at our CBA.

 

I actually think that comment makes some sense.

 

The CBT had something to do with it. But I also think the lack of certainty had a lot to do with it. Reality had a lot to do with it. Betts wasn't taking the sox offers, and my bet is they were substantial. The sox were staring at a lost 2020 with or without him. Why not deal him and if he wants to come back, offer him the most money. But the Henry comment is what the union is going to harp on. You cannot have an owner come out and say they have to get under the cap and then have a team many expected to be in the WC race to deal their best player

[jung]

The CBT had something to do with it. But I also think the lack of certainty had a lot to do with it. Reality had a lot to do with it. Betts wasn't taking the sox offers, and my bet is they were substantial. The sox were staring at a lost 2020 with or without him. Why not deal him and if he wants to come back, offer him the most money. But the Henry comment is what the union is going to harp on. You cannot have an owner come out and say they have to get under the cap and then have a team many expected to be in the WC race to deal their best player

 

I think Clark's comments take a longer view than that. Frankly I agree with those that suggest that Mookie's departure was not a 2020 phenomenon. This was really a done deal long before it was consummated in an actual deal between the Dodgers and the Sox. That is the context for Clark's comments IMO.

[Bellhorn04]

Tony Clark (MLBPA) commenting that there is no reason for Mookie not to still be in Boston and if the CBT was the genesis of this trade then we really need to look at our CBA.

 

I actually think that comment makes some sense.

 

It's a nice sound bite, but I'd like to hear what his actual proposals for change are.

 

'We really need to look at our CBA' doesn't say much, except...

 

Maybe you should have looked at it before you signed it?

[Slasher9]

It's a nice sound bite, but I'd like to hear what his actual proposals for change are.

 

'We really need to look at our CBA' doesn't say much, except...

 

Maybe you should have looked at it before you signed it?

 

as our friend bill would say.......BINGO DAT!

[mvp 78]

Tony Clark (MLBPA) commenting that there is no reason for Mookie not to still be in Boston and if the CBT was the genesis of this trade then we really need to look at our CBA.

 

I actually think that comment makes some sense.

 

He screwed up with the last CBA, so he only has himself to blame. They signed a de facto cap for each team every 3 years. Dumb.

[mvp 78]

It's a nice sound bite, but I'd like to hear what his actual proposals for change are.

 

'We really need to look at our CBA' doesn't say much, except...

 

Maybe you should have looked at it before you signed it?

 

I was surprised when the details were revealed the last go around. MLBPA used to be a pretty strong union. Clark rolled over like a dog.

[moonslav59]

He screwed up with the last CBA, so he only has himself to blame. They signed a de facto cap for each team every 3 years. Dumb.

 

The "cap" only applies to about 4-8 teams each year.

[mvp 78]

The "cap" only applies to about 4-8 teams each year.

 

It applies to everyone. Even if your payroll is 40M, you still are held to CBT rules. Because of the CBT, there is only a finite amount of payroll that can be paid prior to hitting CBT. The union shouldn't have gone for that.

[Bellhorn04]

It applies to everyone. Even if your payroll is 40M, you still are held to CBT rules. Because of the CBT, there is only a finite amount of payroll that can be paid prior to hitting CBT. The union shouldn't have gone for that.

 

IMO the problem with the last CBA was the steeply accelerated tax rates and other penalties targeting the bigger spenders.

 

If the rates and penalties didn't jump so drastically, re-setting would not be such a big thing.

[mvp 78]

IMO the problem with the last CBA was the steeply accelerated tax rates and other penalties targeting the bigger spenders.

 

If the rates and penalties didn't jump so drastically, re-setting would not be such a big thing.

 

I agree. The penalties are ridiculous. The only way the union should keep the CBT in the contract is if they can also establish a salary floor with similar penalties for going under.

[jung]

It's a nice sound bite, but I'd like to hear what his actual proposals for change are.

 

'We really need to look at our CBA' doesn't say much, except...

 

Maybe you should have looked at it before you signed it?

 

I don't think the players understood how capable the owners are of finding a loophole or a way to take advantage of a contract that they did not think of and the consequences of same.

 

They did not think the Owners would try to collude with each other either. It takes real scurrilous types to actually attempt to collude to corrupt a contract because if you do that your ass is really hung out in the breeze. But the owners were quite capable of trying regardless of how STUPID it was. It required a law suit which the Owners promptly lost to resolve that mess.

 

MLBPA still has good legal representation when you compare it to, lets say the NFLPA. But its not the equal of either Marvin Miller or Donald Fehr. Miller was the best MLBPA had. Fehr was not quite as good. But Fehr was better than anything they have today for a legal team or legal representation for contract negotiations.

Edited February 26, 2020 by jung

[mvp 78]

I don't think the players understood how capable the owners are of finding a loophole and the consequences of same. They did not think the Owners would try to collude with each other either. It takes real scurrilous types to actually attempt to collude to corrupt a contract because if you do that your ass is really hung out in the breeze. But the owners were quite capable of trying regardless of how STUPID it was. It required a law suit which the Owners promptly lost to resolve that mess.

 

MLBPA still has good legal representation when you compare it to, lets say the NFLPA. But its not the equal of either Marvin Miller or Donald Fehr. Miller was the best MLBPA had. Fehr was not quite as good. But Fehr was better than anything they have today.

 

NFL players union is the weakest in professional sports.

[oldmaninthevegasdesert]

I think the steroid issue got so derailed. It started off as this method of killing the message that younger players need to use steroids as their only chance of making MLB, but it turned into nothing more than another criterion for excluding players from the Hall.

 

Let them all in. I have said it before and I actually like the idea on some levels. The Hall is a historical museum and the purpose of historical museums is to preserve history, not to censor it. Let all the qualified steroid users (the ones kept out solely for steroid usage or suspected steroid usage) in the Hall and give them their own wing. Call it the Ken Caminiti Wing and place a plaque at the entrance saying "Dedicated to the Memory of Ken Caminiti. MVP at 33. Dead at 41." That way, the baseball history is preserved AND the message about the dangers steroid usage is prominently displayed.

 

And get Rose in the Hall. His exclusion is a joke. Just don't ever let him manage or be employed by any MLB team ever in any capacity. His ban is from Major League Baseball, but the Hall of Fame is actually not affiliated with MLB. Am I the only one who thinks it's incredibly stupid he is allowed to do postseason commentary (which makes him involved with MLB) but not allowed in Cooperstown?

 

damn good idea and says to this out of control P.C. culture

[Jasonbay44]

NFL players union is the weakest in professional sports.

 

The NFL is probably going to have a lockout. There is a lot of stars speaking out about this new proposal, with the 17 game season and none of them seem happy. Not looking good.

[Bellhorn04]

The NFL is probably going to have a lockout. There is a lot of stars speaking out about this new proposal, with the 17 game season and none of them seem happy. Not looking good.

 

To quote the great scribe Shaughnessy:

 

Swell.

[oldmaninthevegasdesert]

The NFL is probably going to have a lockout. There is a lot of stars speaking out about this new proposal, with the 17 game season and none of them seem happy. Not looking good.

 

I hope they are arrogant enough to think they can without consequences. Politics has it in for that league, only a matter of time before it implodes on itself. All it will take is one stupid jock that never learned how to tackle correctly killing himself on the field. Going to happen and the owners know it, otherwise they would not be looking to do away with the kickoff and return.

[Slasher9]

damn good idea and says [ATTACH=CONFIG]807[/ATTACH] to this out of control P.C. culture

 

what does "out of control PC culture" even refer to?

[Slasher9]

Politics has it in for that league, only a matter of time before it implodes on itself. .

 

lol. the orange man lost that fight. the NFL is teflon don....

[cp176]

Bonds, Clemens and Rose should be in the Hall, especially if Gaylord Perry is allowed in. Why did we develop this sudden moral high ground regarding what exhibits qualify for what is essentially a historical museum?

 

wow notin - we agree once again. There are likely many in the Hall today who used steroids and got away with it as well. I will not be the one to judge simply because I cannot say for 100* surety that I would not have crossed the line for the types of dollars they were chasing.

[Slasher9]

There are likely many in the Hall today who used steroids and got away with it as well.

 

agreed.

[Jasonbay44]

I completely agree. Barry Bonds is one of the most dominant and feared players I’ve seen in any sport. You could give almost any player in league history steroids and they won’t come close to replicating the dominance he displayed. He needs to be in Hall, as well as some others.

[oldtimer]

I completely agree. Barry Bonds is one of the most dominant and feared players I’ve seen in any sport. You could give almost any player in league history steroids and they won’t come close to replicating the dominance he displayed. He needs to be in Hall, as well as some others.

 

What is your basis for making that assertion. He was a star player but then used steriods to muscle up to something approaching the incredible Hulk. A few other players did that and were hitting home runs galore. Steroids and homeruns were closely linked. Hall of fame voters need to consider the context. Bonds might well have made the HOF without steroids, but the willingness to cheat makes voting for him a question of conscience.

[Jasonbay44]

What is your basis for making that assertion. He was a star player but then used steriods to muscle up to something approaching the incredible Hulk. A few other players did that and were hitting home runs galore. Steroids and homeruns were closely linked. Hall of fame voters need to consider the context. Bonds might well have made the HOF without steroids, but the willingness to cheat makes voting for him a question of conscience.

I mean do I really have to explain it? He has 7 MVPS, most ever by 4, set the single season and all time home run record, set the walk record and on top of this was a gold glove fielder and elite base runner. He reached base over 5500 times in his career. At age 42 he had a season with a near .500 OBP and an OPS over 1000. There was a lot of players cheating in that era and honestly in most eras and Bonds was in a league of his own. He has 4th highest WAR ever, only behind Cy Young, Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson. Steroids made him strong, but he still needed an elite skill set to do what he did, for as long as he did.

[moonslav59]

I mean do I really have to explain it? He has 7 MVPS, most ever by 4, set the single season and all time home run record, set the walk record and on top of this was a gold glove fielder and elite base runner. He reached base over 5500 times in his career. At age 42 he had a season with a near .500 OBP and an OPS over 1000. There was a lot of players cheating in that era and honestly in most eras and Bonds was in a league of his own. He has 4th highest WAR ever, only behind Cy Young, Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson. Steroids made him strong, but he still needed an elite skill set to do what he did, for as long as he did.

 

He was great and would have been great (but not as great) without cheating.

 

If obvious cheaters belong in the HOF, then he should go.

 

Personally, I'd let him in on his last vote.

[Jasonbay44]

I'd let them all in, well all the worthy ones. A-Rod, Clemens, Bonds, Manny, etc

[mvp 78]

Honestly, McGwire and Sosa should be in even if there numbers aren’t quite there.

[oldtimer]

He was great and would have been great (but not as great) without cheating.

 

If obvious cheaters belong in the HOF, then he should go.

 

Personally, I'd let him in on his last vote.

 

Maybe under a special PED aided category. How many very good players who didn't cheat lose out on the HOF by being overshadowed by those that did.

[Bellhorn04]

Honestly, McGwire and Sosa should be in even if there numbers aren’t quite there.

 

A lot of this is just perception, but:

 

McGwire and Sosa, along with Canseco, are sort of the poster boys for players whose numbers were largely a product of the juice.

 

Bonds and Clemens are sort of the poster boys for players who would have been great without the juice but got greedy.

[Slasher9]

who says bonds and clemens ever played clean?

bonds entered the league in 1986.

for context teammates on my division 2 college team in NH were using steroids in the mid 80's.

are you telling me that MLB players were behind the times of my division 2 country bumpkin teammates???

very doubtful. in fact...impossible.

steroids didnt magically appear in MLB in the mid 90's. they were being used for at least...at least...a decade prior.

newsflash.......MLB PLAYERS WERE USING STEROIDS IN THE 1980'S

 

that said...steroids/hgh or not.....barry bonds should be in the hall of fame for the simple fact that he was intentionally walked with the bases loaded.....

[Bellhorn04]

who says bonds and clemens ever played clean?

bonds entered the league in 1986.

for context teammates on my division 2 college team in NH were using steroids in the mid 80's.

are you telling me that MLB players were behind the times of my division 2 country bumpkin teammates???

very doubtful. in fact...impossible.

steroids didnt magically appear in MLB in the mid 90's. they were being used for at least...at least...a decade prior.

newsflash.......MLB PLAYERS WERE USING STEROIDS IN THE 1980'S

 

that said...steroids/hgh or not.....barry bonds should be in the hall of fame for the simple fact that he was intentionally walked with the bases loaded.....

 

I know the juice didn't magically appear in the mid-late 90's. But that's when the home run totals really jumped and McGwire and Sosa left Roger Maris in the dust.