JDM says absolutely no cheating and team will be cleared

[jad]

Like I said sophistry. But here is quick summary not all rule violations are cheating but all cheating violates rules. Ponder that conundrum.

 

As to Aquinas I suggest the Summa Theologica in the original Latin. I could at one time read Latin.(Unfortunately I lost my copy somewhere between our move from Spain to Kuwait. Or was it between Suriname and Spain, we moved so often it is difficult to recall and was 40 years ago. In any case it so hard to keep up one's Latin fluency these days as there are no ancient Romans around. And those that are all speak Italian, Castellano, or one of the other romance languages)

But it was a paraphrase not the actual quote.

Finally because man is a fallable being cheating takes place in all sports which is why there are referees and commissioners empowered to enforce the rules. These commissioners suspend and ban players as the need arises. So obviously these officials spend a lot of effort to distinguish between the cheaters and non cheaters. So clearly they think there is a difference.

 

(BTW I fibbed while I did study and could read Latin at one time, I read the Summa in English. The Dominican who taught Aquinas said we could so it wasn't cheating. It was a philosophy class not a Latin class.)

I know that does not answer all your questions but I had fun writing it.

 

Yeah, I realize that. We actually agree that the diff. between ch/non-ch. is 'arbitrary' (in the literal sense). (Ha ha! cool on the Latin.)

[jung]

It’s not hard at all ownership didn’t know. The opposing teams who were looking for other teams cheating didn’t say anything. The advance scouts for other teams didn’t say anything despite hearing that banging every game they went to. Why would ownership know? Do you think they knew about the whole plot as if they were in on it? Not likely. Cora couldn’t even get Hinch on board (reportedly).

 

Naming all the players is just a bad, bad idea. Do you also want them wearing scarlet “C”’s for the rest of their careers? Look at how naming players in PED scandals turned out. Did it get rid of them? Did they accomplish the goal of teaching aspiring high schoolers that they don’t need steroids to make the big league? Or did it turn all of MLB into a massive witch hunt that not only re-enforced needing steroids to make the majors, but also taught them the most severe penalty they will ever face is not getting into Cooperstown. At least on the first try.

 

It also didn’t get them out of the game.

 

And naming players won’t stop electronic sign stealing either. Getting rid of hand signs might..

 

If you cannot even censure the guilty what are they doing? Why suspend anybody if they can't even censure the rest of the guilty. Suppose there were some players that did not participate. What, they get to be thrown under the bus with everybody else? I don't care if the guilty have to wear that distinction for the rest of their careers or not. POOR BABIES!

 

As for being completely uncurious in upper management with what was going on with their own team that is the oldest dodge in the book. What is upper management being paid for, to choose next month's bobble-head? That is Mike Pence claiming he just has no idea why his trip to Ukraine for Zalinsky's inauguration was canceled. Has anybody even asked upper management the question about the trash can banging? "What did you think of all that banging coming from your tunnel during home games?" No ....no interest in the answer?

 

None of the other teams questioning the trash can banging is an interesting question all its own. But again, my personal feeling on where dead between the ears baseball is at this point is that they are all uncurious about what the f*** that trash can banging was about possibly because there has been and is so much Organic cheating in baseball. But there is the rub. The apparent inability for anybody to fully grasp the difference between Organic cheating (loading the baseball, too much pin tar on the bat, corking the bat etc), Organic Sign stealing which is not even against the rules of baseball and the systematic in game real time use of electronics and video to steal signs is breathtaking for its obliviousness and complete willingness to shove just anything under the carpet. Media appears remarkably uncurious in this as well. I am more inclined to think that if there was a real investigation as opposed to an effort to shape the result, the chances that everybody but a few guys escapes is far less than that at some level everybody in that Houston Organization knew.

 

All the players that participated should be called out by name. I don't see how anybody could argue otherwise.

Edited January 20, 2020 by jung

[mvp 78]

I like pitchers hitting

 

Swing and a miss

[Elktonnick]

Swing and a miss

But when they connect.

[jad]

Loved watching Jerry Casales hit. Even Dick Raddatz got some good swings, no? (But it really isn't baseball!)

[notin]

I like pitchers hitting

 

I’d be ok with it if they took it seriously, but so few of them do...

[notin]

If you cannot even censure the guilty what are they doing? Why suspend anybody if they can't even censure the rest of the guilty. Suppose there were some players that did not participate. What, they get to be thrown under the bus with everybody else? I don't care if the guilty have to wear that distinction for the rest of their careers or not. POOR BABIES!

 

If they weren’t guilty, they had a chance to talk. I thought you were opposed to an omertà defense.

 

As for being completely uncurious in upper management with what was going on with their own team that is the oldest dodge in the book. What is upper management being paid for, to choose next month's bobble-head? That is Mike Pence claiming he just has no idea why his trip to Ukraine for Zalinsky's inauguration was canceled. Has anybody even asked upper management the question about the trash can banging? "What did you think of all that banging coming from your tunnel during home games?" No ....no interest in the answer

 

None of the other teams questioning the trash can banging is an interesting question all its own. But again, my personal feeling on where dead between the ears baseball is at this point is that they are all uncurious about what the f*** that trash can banging was about possibly because there has been and is so much Organic cheating in baseball. But there is the rub. The apparent inability for anybody to fully grasp the difference between Organic cheating (loading the baseball, too much pin tar on the bat, corking the bat etc), Organic Sign stealing which is not even against the rules of baseball and the systematic in game real time use of electronics and video to steal signs is breathtaking for its obliviousness and complete willingness to shove just anything under the carpet. Media appears remarkably uncurious in this as well. I am more inclined to think that if there was a real investigation as opposed to an effort to shape the result, the chances that everybody but a few guys escapes is far less than that at some level everybody in that Houston Organization knew.

 

All the players that participated should be called out by name. I don't see how anybody could argue otherwise.

 

I have no idea why you think the media isn’t curious. Google “Astros sign stealing” and you will get millions of hits.

 

I’d rather see the team punished than the individual players. This was a system out in place by coaches and the players accepted it. The naming of names does nothing but satisfy the bloodlust of a witch hunter. That’s been proven already...

[Elktonnick]

Loved watching Jerry Casales hit. Even Dick Raddatz got some good swings, no? (But it really isn't baseball!)

 

Of course it is. By that logic they should adopt NFL.style platoons. 9 offense and 9 defensive players. That really isn't baseball.

[Bellhorn04]

Of course it is. By that logic they should adopt NFL.style platoons. 9 offense and 9 defensive players. That really isn't baseball.

 

Very few people actually enjoy watching pitchers 'hit'.

 

Pitchers are at an obvious disadvantage because of their limited usage. The NL leader in innings pitched, Strasburg, only came to the plate 80 times in 2019.

 

Pitchers ARE specialists. The game isn't pure. There are pinch hitters, pinch runners, relief pitchers, defensive replacements.

[Elktonnick]

Very few people actually enjoy watching pitchers 'hit'.

 

Pitchers are at an obvious disadvantage because of their limited usage. The NL leader in innings pitched, Strasburg, only came to the plate 80 times in 2019.

 

Pitchers ARE specialists. The game isn't pure. There are pinch hitters, pinch runners, relief pitchers, defensive replacements.

 

Every game has replacements including Rugby Union and soccer. But the idea is our nine against your nine. That is the baseball we played since our childhood.

[Bellhorn04]

Every game has replacements including Rugby Union and soccer. But the idea is our nine against your nine. That is the baseball we played since our childhood.

 

Did you not have baseball games as a kid where there were more than eighteen kids and you'd have to make substitutions?

 

Or pitchers who had to come out because their arms were sore?

[jung]

If they weren’t guilty, they had a chance to talk. I thought you were opposed to an omertà defense.

 

 

 

I have no idea why you think the media isn’t curious. Google “Astros sign stealing” and you will get millions of hits.

 

I’d rather see the team punished than the individual players. This was a system out in place by coaches and the players accepted it. The naming of names does nothing but satisfy the bloodlust of a witch hunter. That’s been proven already...

 

The Houston Report claims the system was designed mainly to benefit the players. The players should be named PERIOD! If there is a video and audio of an Astro's player at the plate while trash can banging occurs that player should be named. This should not even be a decision.

[Elktonnick]

Did you not have baseball games as a kid where there were more than eighteen kids and you'd have to make substitutions?

 

Or pitchers who had to come out because their arms were sore?

Sure but mostly we had less than 18 in our pickup games. No one ever came out. We played until it got dark.

[Bellhorn04]

The Houston Report claims the system was designed mainly to benefit the players. The players should be named PERIOD! If there is a video and audio of an Astro's player at the plate while trash can banging occurs that player should be named. This should not even be a decision.

 

In theory this might mean suspending every single Astro hitter who came to the plate in 2017. It would be a ludicrous outcome.

[Bellhorn04]

Sure but mostly we had less than 18 in our pickup games. No one ever came out. We played until it got dark.

 

Oh yeah, I played in those games too. But as soon as you got to Little League, things were a lot different.

[jung]

Very few people actually enjoy watching pitchers 'hit'.

 

Pitchers are at an obvious disadvantage because of their limited usage. The NL leader in innings pitched, Strasburg, only came to the plate 80 times in 2019.

 

Pitchers ARE specialists. The game isn't pure. There are pinch hitters, pinch runners, relief pitchers, defensive replacements.

 

I don't object to the DH. I object to one league playing with one and one league playing without one. Its all supposed to be MLB. This is another mess MLB has allowed to fester to the point of stupidity.

 

Pitchers have enough to do just to pitch IMO which is why most of them can't hit worth crap. Once they get to professional ball all of their time goes to protecting and optimizing their ability to pitch. When you look at what the rest of us stiff everyday players do in the game it only makes sense. Like I posted earlier, no love lost between me and pitchers. However the whole game falls on its face without pitchers doing what pitchers do. The rest of us live and die revolving around the pitcher. In comparison the rest of us are standing around chewing on our gloves waiting to get back to the batters box. Even the guys who happen to be really good fielders live to get back to the batters box.

[jung]

In theory this might mean suspending every single Astro hitter who came to the plate in 2017. It would be a ludicrous outcome.

 

 

It might but I seriously doubt even MLB is THAT stupid. Suspending the players en masse will likely force a lawsuit out of the PA. MLB does not want the PA getting on the wrong side of this issue as MLB itself does not have the guts to deal with this. The Owners don't want to deal with it either. IMO MLB and actually WE have to depend on the PA to step to the plate and deal with inorganic cheating, real time in game use of video and electronics to cheat some players to the benefit of other players. The pressure has to come from the PA.

 

Sports media won't do it either. Sports media is as bad as Political media. "Lets not make thinks seem too bad or we might all lose are meaningless talking head TV jobs". IMO, the PA is our only hope. If they can't stop this, just stop playing the games. Its a farce at that point. Its almost a farce as it is now.

Edited January 20, 2020 by jung

[jung]

Whoops...request made by Illinois congressman for the House to investigate the MLB cheating scandal which the House can do because of MLB's anti-trust exemption. That might light a fire under MLB. They want the politicians into this like they want a proctology exam.

[notin]

I don't object to the DH. I object to one league playing with one and one league playing without one. Its all supposed to be MLB. This is another mess MLB has allowed to fester to the point of stupidity.

 

 

Agree. Put the DH in the NL.

 

Last I looked, the only two baseball leagues in the world that don’t use the DH are the Pacific Coast League in Japan and the National League.

 

In general, pitchers don’t and won’t ever take hitting seriously. They know what fills their paycheck.

[notin]

I like tradition.

 

 

Then don’t complain about cheating.

 

Getting rid of video rooms won’t stop cheating. It’s not like setting up another camera is that difficult and obvious. We live in an age where people secure GoPro camera to the heads of peregrine falcons and upload the video to YouTube. Do you really think getting rid of a single video room is going to do anything here?

 

If you want to stop electronic sign stealing, maybe “electronic” isn’t the word you should be focusing on here...

[Slasher9]

I like tradition.

 

whats your stance on black players, catchers equipment, balls bouncing over the fence only being a double, padded fences, light towers, relief pitchers, bp machines, first baseman mitt, jersey numbers above 9, airplane travel, 7th inning stretch god bless america singing, divisions, wild card?

[Bellhorn04]

In general, pitchers don’t and won’t ever take hitting seriously. They know what fills their paycheck.

 

And personally I'd rather not see Chris Sale do anything that enhances his chances of getting hurt.

[notin]

whats your stance on black players, catchers equipment, balls bouncing over the fence only being a double, padded fences, light towers, relief pitchers, bp machines, first baseman mitt, jersey numbers above 9, airplane travel, 7th inning stretch god bless america singing, divisions, wild card?

 

You left out legal spitballs

 

Baseball has undergone a ridiculous amount of changes. The number of players on the field is about the only consistency. When the PED scandal broke and the media kept crying about how it was unfair to baseball record holders, AL I could think was “do these people think baseball never changed between Amber Doubleday and Jose Canseco?”

[Swiharts Ghost]

Whoops...request made by Illinois congressman for the House to investigate the MLB cheating scandal which the House can do because of MLB's anti-trust exemption. That might light a fire under MLB. They want the politicians into this like they want a proctology exam.

 

Everything that’s wrong with Government today is the intrusion into frivolous BS like this at TAX Payer expense .Lets make up another scandal and drone on .House of No one representing us .the house should be investigated for Alcoholism on the job in light of this .Baseball has obviously taken care into the investigation and have levied what they deem a punishment yet we need our House of Reps on this s*** ? Yeah I’m done with a certain faction of government who are destroying this country.House will recommend robot catchers and Umps and pitchers .

Edited January 20, 2020 by Swiharts Ghost

[Slasher9]

Everything that’s wrong with Government today is the intrusion into frivolous BS like this at TAX Payer expense .Lets make up another scandal and drone on .House of No one representing us . Pelosi should be investigated for Alcoholism on the job in light of this .Baseball has obviously taken care into the investigation and have levied what they deem a punishment yet we need our House of Reps on this s*** ? Yeah I’m done with a certain faction of government who are destroying this country.

 

its americas pasttime tho? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

also, anti trust laws are a real thing.

god bless Nancy Pelosi for protecting our pasttime. god bless the united states.

love it or leave it!

[moonslav59]

I’m done with you, Swi.

 

Too much crap to begin with and no going all political.

 

Ignore time.

[Swiharts Ghost]

its americas pasttime tho? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

also, anti trust laws are a real thing.

god bless Nancy Pelosi for protecting our pasttime. god bless the united states.

love it or leave it!

Wow just Wow I’d rather a wet cat in charge

Edited January 20, 2020 by Swiharts Ghost

[Swiharts Ghost]

I’m done with you, Swi.

 

Too much crap to begin with and no going all political.

 

Ignore time.

 

 

Moon political ? Read above where house investigating baseball

Edited January 20, 2020 by Swiharts Ghost

[Slasher9]

Wow just Wow I’d rather a wet cat in charge than that nut

 

if you consider Nancy Pelosi a "nut"...what do you consider the orange man?? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Swiharts Ghost]

I’m done with you, Swi.

 

Too much crap to begin with and no going all political.

 

Ignore time.

 

Too much stuff to begin with ? Moon you sir think you hang the moon don’t ya pal ?