Mookie and Andrew Mcutchen .....

[Kimmi]

Maybe he's the best at deciding which choice is best and then doing it.

 

You said that much better than I.

[Kimmi]

It doesn't always work that way though. I was looking through attendance numbers last night after I posted that.

 

The 2013 team actually drew less fans than the 2012 team.

 

Interesting.

 

Must be the Bobby V factor.

[notin]

True. We were very fortunate with how everything shook out with Nomar. He was not the same player after 2003.

 

No but he was also 30 then...

[moonslav59]

No but he was also 30 then...

 

We also knew he had an injury (that he likely lied about its origin) and was a pouting during a pennant race.

[notin]

We also knew he had an injury (that he likely lied about its origin) and was a pouting during a pennant race.

 

Nomar is the cautionary tale for Betts. Certainly it doesn’t have to end the same way, but let’s not pretend Nomar wasn’t every bit of as special talent as Betts is, and how losing him really didn’t completely derail the team...

[moonslav59]

Nomar is the cautionary tale for Betts. Certainly it doesn’t have to end the same way, but let’s not pretend Nomar wasn’t every bit of as special talent as Betts is, and how losing him really didn’t completely derail the team...

 

I'm not pretending.

 

He was not every bit as special. IMO, it was not even close.

 

The guy could hit- no doubt. His defense was over-rated.

 

I was happy we traded him. I even told my friends and family that the trade for OCab was "going to win us a ring."

 

I will not be happy, if we trade Betts.

[cp176]

Nomar is the cautionary tale for Betts. Certainly it doesn’t have to end the same way, but let’s not pretend Nomar wasn’t every bit of as special talent as Betts is, and how losing him really didn’t completely derail the team...

 

Personal opinion of course once again but I don't think the two players really are comparable regardless of what the stats show. Nomar was one helluva baseball player for sure not so much as he aged. Betts very well might be one of the very best we have seen in Boston. he is young and has started a Hall of fame like career. In my mind there is a big difference between the two. Nomar was very very good when he was young and healthy, Betts is arguably the second best player in the game today at a pretty young age. After Mike Trout, i'm guessing that Mookie is the next guy up.

[cp176]

I'm not pretending.

 

He was not every bit as special. IMO, it was not even close.

 

The guy could hit- no doubt. His defense was over-rated.

 

I was happy we traded him. I even told my friends and family that the trade for OCab was "going to win us a ring."

 

I will not be happy, if we trade Betts.

 

you beat me to the punch. I agree with you . Betts may be traded for sure but he could be forever seen as the second most important one to get away. He could be that good. Obviously the Babe being number 1.

[cp176]

Nomar is the cautionary tale for Betts. Certainly it doesn’t have to end the same way, but let’s not pretend Nomar wasn’t every bit of as special talent as Betts is, and how losing him really didn’t completely derail the team...

 

 

Nomar wasn't

[moonslav59]

Personal opinion of course once again but I don't think the two players really are comparable regardless of what the stats show. Nomar was one helluva baseball player for sure not so much as he aged. Betts very well might be one of the very best we have seen in Boston. he is young and has started a Hall of fame like career. In my mind there is a big difference between the two. Nomar was very very good when he was young and healthy, Betts is arguably the second best player in the game today at a pretty young age. After Mike Trout, i'm guessing that Mookie is the next guy up.

 

Man, it was fun watching Nomar hit, despite the twitching and glove adjustments after every pitch.

 

Betts is a 5 tool stud.

 

We don't know how he'll age, but I hope we don't end up viewing him like we did the Babe- doing wonders for another team.

[notin]

Personal opinion of course once again but I don't think the two players really are comparable regardless of what the stats show. Nomar was one helluva baseball player for sure not so much as he aged. Betts very well might be one of the very best we have seen in Boston. he is young and has started a Hall of fame like career. In my mind there is a big difference between the two. Nomar was very very good when he was young and healthy, Betts is arguably the second best player in the game today at a pretty young age. After Mike Trout, i'm guessing that Mookie is the next guy up.

 

 

It’s not an apples to apples comparison if you compare aging Nomar to 26yo Betts. Before turning 29, Nomar was on an HOF fast track himself with numbers bearing a striking similarity to Robin Yount’s.

 

I think there was a time when we also looked at Nomar as Red Sox Rushmore potential. But it just faded so fast with the injuries, and he fell so far.

 

I wouldn’t separate the two by much. Nomar just had so many ungodly games, and I believe still has the team hitting streak record. Remember in the postseason Schourek game. Nomar’s HR off Bartolommeo Colon was the lead Schourek was protecting and Gordon couldn’t hold...

[notin]

Man, it was fun watching Nomar hit, despite the twitching and glove adjustments after every pitch.

 

Betts is a 5 tool stud.

 

We don't know how he'll age, but I hope we don't end up viewing him like we did the Babe- doing wonders for another team.

 

Nomar was a walking tribute to OCD, no doubt. He was like a little nervous version of Robin Yount up there...

[moonslav59]

It’s not an apples to apples comparison if you compare aging Nomar to 26yo Betts. Before turning 29, Nomar was on an HOF fast track himself with numbers bearing a striking similarity to Robin Yount’s.

 

I think there was a time when we also looked at Nomar as Red Sox Rushmore potential. But it just faded so fast with the injuries, and he fell so far.

 

I wouldn’t separate the two by much. Nomar just had so many ungodly games, and I believe still has the team hitting streak record. Remember in the postseason Schourek game. Nomar’s HR off Bartolommeo Colon was the lead Schourek was protecting and Gordon couldn’t hold...

 

Nomar was never close to the defender Betts is, nor was he a great base-runner.

 

His WAR was inflated by the SS position he pretended to play.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I remember it was awkward being a fan of Nomar: easy to love the hitter, hard to like Nomar the Red Sox player. He just seemed so sour in all his interviews in the end, like he couldn't stand answering any questions and wanted to be anywhere but Boston. He wasn't the first or last reticent athlete -- and I guess any of us would be bitter if we discovered we were traded and replaced by ARod, and then told, "oops, that fell through, you're still our guy... no, really."

 

But in New England, it's always important that ballplayers at least pretend they care about playing for the Red Sox, for as much as we care about rooting for them.

[moonslav59]

I remember it was awkward being a fan of Nomar: easy to love the hitter, hard to like Nomar the Red Sox player. He just seemed so sour in all his interviews in the end, like he couldn't stand answering any questions and wanted to be anywhere but Boston. He wasn't the first or last reticent athlete -- and I guess any of us would be bitter if we discovered we were traded and replaced by ARod, and then told, "oops, that fell through, you're still our guy... no, really."

 

But in New England, it's always important that ballplayers at least pretend they care about playing for the Red Sox, for as much as we care about rooting for them.

 

I'm not sure being traded for ARod is an insult, but your point is well-taken.

 

Rumor had it that Nomar lied about his spring injury, and the Sox did not call him on it, which in my mind, more than returned the favor.

 

What I remember most was thinking we needed SS defense to have any chance at a ring in 2004. When I heard we got OCab, I was thrilled.

 

If we hurt Nomar's feelings, so be it. He went downhill faster than just about any star I've ever seen. We got rid of him just in time, and had we never tried to trade him, he'd have still fell off a cliff.

 

Thanks, Theo!

 

[cp176]

I loved the young Nomar and at the plate what wasn't there to love. he came along when we needed a star. Honestly though, I never saw him as a great fielder. he could get to balls and often times made the what looked to be impossible play. The but is that for me, it seemed like the routine groundball seemed to cause him more trouble than it should have. Like Cabrerra or not he gave us consistent play at the ss position. I still think that comparing Nomar to Mookie is nuts. In all aspects of the game Mookie seems to be ahead of him. Betts is on a different level not to mention that he still has youth on his side.

[cp176]

I'm not sure being traded for ARod is an insult, but your point is well-taken.

 

Rumor had it that Nomar lied about his spring injury, and the Sox did not call him on it, which in my mind, more than returned the favor.

 

What I remember most was thinking we needed SS defense to have any chance at a ring in 2004. When I heard we got OCab, I was thrilled.

 

If we hurt Nomar's feelings, so be it. He went downhill faster than just about any star I've ever seen. We got rid of him just in time, and had we never tried to trade him, he'd have still fell off a cliff.

 

Thanks, Theo!

 

 

 

Hey - I see that CLIFF word right there.

[Bellhorn04]

No but he was also 30 then...

 

He really went downhill fast though. He was no Jeter.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Fans may not have known anything about Cabrera off the field, but what we saw in '04 was a jolt of enthusiasm that seemed to energize the Red Sox. His fielding, hitting and running were all done with a verve that was opposite of Nomar's nope and mope act. OCab also popularized the dugout handshake celebrations, the kind of theatrics that bring a team together.

 

Ironic that neither shortstop seemed to find a permanent home after Boston, though Cabrera was clearly the better player in his 30s, with 10 WAR to Nomar's 3 WAR.

[Bellhorn04]

Fans may not have known anything about Cabrera off the field, but what we saw in '04 was a jolt of enthusiasm that seemed to energize the Red Sox. His fielding, hitting and running were all done with a verve that was opposite of Nomar's nope and mope act. OCab also popularized the dugout handshake celebrations, the kind of theatrics that bring a team together.

 

Ironic that neither shortstop seemed to find a permanent home after Boston, though Cabrera was clearly the better player in his 30s, with 10 WAR to Nomar's 3 WAR.

 

OCab did a fantastic job. His defense was lights-out in the 2004 postseason.

 

Theo deserves a statue just for making that trade.

[notin]

Fans may not have known anything about Cabrera off the field, but what we saw in '04 wias a jolt of enthusiasm that seemed to energize the Red Sox. His fielding, hitting and running were all done with a verve that was opposite of Nomar's nope and mope act. OCab also popularized the dugout handshake celebrations, the kind of theatrics that bring a team together.

 

Ironic that neither shortstop seemed to find a permanent home after Boston, though Cabrera was clearly the better player in his 30s, with 10 WAR to Nomar's 3 WAR.

 

Nomar couldn’t stay healthy. He was a big name wrapped in bandages.

 

Cabrera was allegedly a horrible human being whose skill at baseball was just not enough to eclipse his acts of selfishness...

[Slasher9]

It doesn't always work that way though. I was looking through attendance numbers last night after I posted that.

 

The 2013 team actually drew less fans than the 2012 team.

 

with Fenway being...Fenway i think people will always show up for games. i believe what takes the big "hit" during down years is the number of eyes tuning in to NESN. that is what hits JH in the wallet.

[Slasher9]

there was a time in his mid to late 20's that Nomar was viewed by Red Sox fans exactly the same way we now drool for Mook.

 

CP - if Mookie is not on the 2018 Red Sox and a league average hitter/defender is playing RF all season - do we still have a parade?

i say yes. we coasted the division and pitching and "lesser players" stepped up offensively in the postseason.

[Bellhorn04]

with Fenway being...Fenway i think people will always show up for games. i believe what takes the big "hit" during down years is the number of eyes tuning in to NESN. that is what hits JH in the wallet.

 

Agreed. A lot of the folks in the stands at Fenway now are just there because it's an event. But the NESN viewers are a different story.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

with Fenway being...Fenway i think people will always show up for games. i believe what takes the big "hit" during down years is the number of eyes tuning in to NESN. that is what hits JH in the wallet.

 

Yes... and even to diehards (or turnoff-remote-hards) like us, the 2020 Red Sox had better change the narrative fast. They can't possibly expect people to watch re-runs of the same pitchers who led the league in walks allowed, and hitters who led the league with eight guys with over 100 strikeouts.

[notin]

there was a time in his mid to late 20's that Nomar was viewed by Red Sox fans exactly the same way we now drool for Mook.

 

CP - if Mookie is not on the 2018 Red Sox and a league average hitter/defender is playing RF all season - do we still have a parade?

i say yes. we coasted the division and pitching and "lesser players" stepped up offensively in the postseason.

 

If you look at al the Hall of Famers who played for the Red Sox over the years - Williams, Yastrzemski, Rice, Doerr, Fisk, Boggs, Eckersley, Cronin - none of them ever won a World Series while playing in Boston. If Betts makes it to Cooperstown, he would be the first Hall of Famer who won a World Series as a member of the Red Sox since Babe Ruth in 1918. (Or the second, once Ortiz gets enshrined.)

 

I like having great players, but it's not always a recipe for success. Other than Ortiz, is there anyone else from the 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018 teams that look like a surefire HOF candidate? Manny would be one but the steroid legacy might have drastic implications...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Pedro

[notin]

Pedro

 

Excellent call. And a horrible omission on my part. Pedro was a significant factor in winning a title in Boston. Surprisingly, only one...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Excellent call. And a horrible omission on my part. Pedro was a significant factor in winning a title in Boston. Surprisingly, only one...

 

Having the best pitcher in the game making starts every five days sure made it seem like we had a chance to win titles for six or seven years. It felt that way through Clemens' first seven years in Boston, too. And Sale's first two...

[notin]

Having the best pitcher in the game making starts every five days sure made it seem like we had a chance to win titles for six or seven years. It felt that way through Clemens' first seven years in Boston, too. And Sale's first two...

 

The big issue with his early years was a lack of anyone behind him. From 1998 thru 2001, the only starting pitchers besides Pedro to throw over 140 IP were Mark Portugal and Pat Rapp, both in 1998. Yay! Such quality arms. Remember the days of "Portugal and Rapp make the rotation crap."

 

It wan't until 2002, when the Sox converted Lowe, added Burkett, and stopped moving Wakefield around that they had a true starting rotation capable of not only pitching well but also eating a lot of innings...