Red Sox have fired GM Dave Dombrowski

[notin]

I blame Werner for Pablo and Hanley.

 

I blame Ed Asner and Carrot Top...

[moonslav59]

It's totally implausible that Dombo was only hired to do what Larry had been doing (whatever that was). Dombo has always been a head decision-maker. It only makes sense that Henry wanted DD to assume that responsibility with the Red Sox, and that's exactly the way it unfolded.

 

Ben realized he was no longer going to be that guy, and he resigned.

 

I agree with both of your last 2 posts, here.

 

One could argue they hired DD more to replace Lucchino than Ben, but the writing was on the wall. DD was going to be the one in total control.

[mvp 78]

Series of events:

 

1. Lucchino states he's leaving the FO

2. Dombrowski is let go by the Tigers

3. Dombrowshi is hired by the Sox

 

I think it is reasonable to assume that Dombrowski came in to take over for Larry.

[Bellhorn04]

Series of events:

 

1. Lucchino states he's leaving the FO

2. Dombrowski is let go by the Tigers

3. Dombrowshi is hired by the Sox

 

I think it is reasonable to assume that Dombrowski came in to take over for Larry.

 

You left out the "Red Sox headed for third last place finish in four years" part.

 

So are you suggesting that Ben misunderstood the situation or it wasn't explained to him properly?

 

And that Henry and Werner then said "Oh, gee, we really weren't expecting that. Now I guess we'll need DD to make all the decisions."

[notin]

Series of events:

 

1. Lucchino states he's leaving the FO

2. Dombrowski is let go by the Tigers

3. Dombrowshi is hired by the Sox

 

I think it is reasonable to assume that Dombrowski came in to take over for Larry.

 

Plus Lucchino’s title was President, which was also Dombrowski’s title.

 

Cherington was replaced by Mike Hazen...

[notin]

You left out the "Red Sox headed for third last place finish in four years" part.

 

So are you suggesting that Ben misunderstood the situation or it wasn't explained to him properly?

 

And that Henry and Werner then said "Oh, gee, we really weren't expecting that. Now I guess we'll need DD to make all the decisions."

 

Dombrowski reportedly admitted he wasn’t expecting it. And he promoted Hazen to fill the role.

 

It’s entirely possible Cherington quit because he knew his philosophy for running a team was in complete contrast with the Farm Killer. He would hardly be the first person ever to leave a position due to philosophical differences...

[Bellhorn04]

Plus Lucchino’s title was President, which was also Dombrowski’s title.

 

Cherington was replaced by Mike Hazen...

 

What's Chaim Bloom's title?

[notin]

What's Chaim Bloom's title?

 

Apparently it’s Chief Baseball Officer

[notin]

What's Chaim Bloom's title?

 

Bloom is Chief Baseball Officer

 

Brian O’Halloran is the GM

 

Sam Kennedy is the President and CEO (Dombrowski’s former position)...

[Bellhorn04]

All that really matters is what Henry's intentions were. And those are pretty clear. He wanted DD to do DD things, and that's what happened.

[notin]

All that really matters is what Henry's intentions were. And those are pretty clear. He wanted DD to do DD things, and that's what happened.

 

But the point is, DD wanted Cherington to do Cherington things...

[Bellhorn04]

But the point is, DD wanted Cherington to do Cherington things...

 

Maybe he did. Or maybe he was doing the diplomatic thing. We'll never know. But I think most people understand why Ben quickly moved on.

[notin]

Maybe he did. Or maybe he was doing the diplomatic thing. We'll never know. But I think most people understand why Ben quickly moved on.

 

Well, he said he wanted him on board. Not sure what diplomacy buys him.

 

I would think the reason is Cherington, who very likely knew Dombrowski professionally, figured he would be unable to work with him, either because they had drastically different philosphies or he figured DD to be a micromanager, or possibly even because DD was an insufferable human being.

 

But bear in mind, Cherington worked under Lucchino, who carries an (undeserved?) reputation as a micromanager himself, and under Henry, who hamstrung his ability to spend anything his first year as well...

[mvp 78]

You left out the "Red Sox headed for third last place finish in four years" part.

 

So are you suggesting that Ben misunderstood the situation or it wasn't explained to him properly?

 

And that Henry and Werner then said "Oh, gee, we really weren't expecting that. Now I guess we'll need DD to make all the decisions."

 

I think Dombrowski wanted to head into more of a Larry role. He tried that in Detroit, but the GM there stunk (this was litigated the other day about the Tigers and their performance prior to Dave) so he fired him after 6 games. Now, that probably tingles the tin foil hats right now, but hear me out. I think Dombrowski WANTED to by the President. He WANTED to get away from the day to day player management stuff. I think he'd rather advise than be the one making the decisions. We can see that with how he wanted to further the cause in Nashville this year. From the day it was announced: The Blue Jays had "serious conversations" with Dombrowski about possibly joining that club, and that prompted the Red Sox to give him full power over baseball operations, Yahoo! Sports reported. He didn't want to just be GM anymore, he wanted a bigger role. I believe that he saw that Ben was a good GM (he had won a WS on his own after all). I also believe Ben looked at what happened in DET and said "woah, I don't want to get let go, I know how things worked under Larry, but I'm just going to leave on my own. There will be other opportunities for me." Both things can be true. Dombrowski could want a different role AND Ben could want to go elsewhere and not work for Dave.

[mvp 78]

Bloom is Chief Baseball Officer

 

Brian O’Halloran is the GM

 

Sam Kennedy is the President and CEO (Dombrowski’s former position)...

 

Brian is just a COFFEE BOY.

[Bellhorn04]

But bear in mind, Cherington worked under Lucchino, who carries an (undeserved?) reputation as a micromanager himself, and under Henry, who hamstrung his ability to spend anything his first year as well...

 

Yes, I was going to mention those things myself. Maybe hiring DD was the proverbial last straw...

[mvp 78]

Maybe he did. Or maybe he was doing the diplomatic thing. We'll never know. But I think most people understand why Ben quickly moved on.

 

But you said it was "implausible." Clearly it was a reasonable position. Just one you didn't agree with.

[Bellhorn04]

But you said it was "implausible." Clearly it was a reasonable position. Just one you didn't agree with.

 

What I said was implausible was DD being hired only to replicate Lucchino's role.

[notin]

Yes, I was going to mention those things myself. Maybe hiring DD was the proverbial last straw...

 

Not to mention, you pointed out the massive understatement of "3 last place finishes in 4 years."

 

Was 2012 really on Cherington?

 

He took over a team that was coming off a September that had to be among th worst months in franchise history, and with a heavy payroll on a team that had quit on everybody and was probably a dysfunctional mess on multiple levels. Oh, nd he was not allowed to spend to the point where he had to deal Marco Scutaro just to add Cody Ross and his borderline minimum wage salary. This team looked to be heading for a serious abyss, especially given the big money still on the books for Guinness Book Disappointment Carl Crawford and two declining contracts in Josh Beckett and Adrian Gonzalez. What GM was going to salvage that under those conditions?

 

That the team won a World Series the next year was a remarkable job that shouldn't be written off with the tagline "3 last place finishes in 4 years," one that ignores the title even happened at all and solely underscores to low-lights to the point where it attributes one of last place finishes to him that he had absolutely no chance of preventing...

[mvp 78]

Not to mention, you pointed out the massive understatement of "3 last place finishes in 4 years."

 

Was 2012 really on Cherington?

 

He took over a team that was coming off a September that had to be among th worst months in franchise history, and with a heavy payroll on a team that had quit on everybody and was probably a dysfunctional mess on multiple levels. Oh, nd he was not allowed to spend to the point where he had to deal Marco Scutaro just to add Cody Ross and his borderline minimum wage salary. This team looked to be heading for a serious abyss, especially given the big money still on the books for Guinness Book Disappointment Carl Crawford and two declining contracts in Josh Beckett and Adrian Gonzalez. What GM was going to salvage that under those conditions?

 

That the team won a World Series the next year was a remarkable job that shouldn't be written off with the tagline "3 last place finishes in 4 years," one that ignores the title even happened at all and solely underscores to low-lights to the point where it attributes one of last place finishes to him that he had absolutely no chance of preventing...

 

If they never hired Dombrowski, I don't think there would be a large outcry from fans that Ben was staying. I bet the sox owners were surprised that Ben left. I believe they wanted Dave as President. Didn't Henry work with Dave in FL?

[notin]

If they never hired Dombrowski, I don't think there would be a large outcry from fans that Ben was staying. I bet the sox owners were surprised that Ben left. I believe they wanted Dave as President. Didn't Henry work with Dave in FL?

 

He’s he did. From 1991 until Beinfest...

[Bellhorn04]

Not to mention, you pointed out the massive understatement of "3 last place finishes in 4 years."

 

Was 2012 really on Cherington?

 

He took over a team that was coming off a September that had to be among th worst months in franchise history, and with a heavy payroll on a team that had quit on everybody and was probably a dysfunctional mess on multiple levels. Oh, nd he was not allowed to spend to the point where he had to deal Marco Scutaro just to add Cody Ross and his borderline minimum wage salary. This team looked to be heading for a serious abyss, especially given the big money still on the books for Guinness Book Disappointment Carl Crawford and two declining contracts in Josh Beckett and Adrian Gonzalez. What GM was going to salvage that under those conditions?

 

That the team won a World Series the next year was a remarkable job that shouldn't be written off with the tagline "3 last place finishes in 4 years," one that ignores the title even happened at all and solely underscores to low-lights to the point where it attributes one of last place finishes to him that he had absolutely no chance of preventing...

 

OK, replace that with "back-to-back last place finishes with one of the highest payrolls in baseball", then.

[moonslav59]

OK, replace that with "back-to-back last place finishes with one of the highest payrolls in baseball", then.

 

Ben (or Larry) made some serious mistakes signing Pablito, HRam and Castillo, but Ben was handed a team in turmoil, a horrific manager thrust upon him and some massive contracts for under performing pitchers.

 

On paper, the rotation Ben was handed looked great. I find it hard to blame him for them not pulling their weight in his first year. He then wins a ring then ends up trading away some beloved Sox pitchers. People blamed him for trading away the under performers or "clubhouse cancers," (which in itself is debatable).

 

3 of his teams under performed. GMs are ultimately to blame, and Ben deserves much of the blame for at least 2 of those 3 bad seasons, but he wasn't handed the farm DD was. He pulled off one of the greatest trades in ML history by dumping CC, and Beckett & AGon swiftly declined afterwards, so when judging a GM in hindsight, as they always are, we should take that into account. Without that trade, we wouldn't have had the budget space or talent to win in 2013. That trade also freed up money into DD's regime, although the HRam/Pablo/Castillo deals more than overshadowed those savings.

[mvp 78]

OK, replace that with "back-to-back last place finishes with one of the highest payrolls in baseball", then.

 

The team sucked in 14 for sure. However, they could have been a .500 team if they win the last 3 games vs CLE. Doing so would have tied them for 3rd place. We overstate it when we complain about the last place finish of 15.

[mvp 78]

This is still a good offensive team. They lead the AL in hits and are 2nd in TBs.

[Bellhorn04]

The team sucked in 14 for sure. However, they could have been a .500 team if they win the last 3 games vs CLE. Doing so would have tied them for 3rd place. We overstate it when we complain about the last place finish of 15.

 

Still 15 games out of first place in 2015 though.

 

Expectations were fairly high for that team after signing Hanley and Pablo and "rebuilding" the rotation with Porcello, Miley and Masterson-to go with Buchholz and Kelly.

 

It was that 'Who's the ace?' rotation that made me seriously question Ben's thinking for the first time.

[notin]

OK, replace that with "back-to-back last place finishes with one of the highest payrolls in baseball", then.

 

It does still whitewash the positives.

 

That would be like summing up Dombrowski's tenure by saying "his team missed the postseason with one of the highest payrolls in MLB history".

 

It is true. Does it tell the whole story?

[Bellhorn04]

It does still whitewash the positives.

 

That would be like summing up Dombrowski's tenure by saying "his team missed the postseason with one of the highest payrolls in MLB history".

 

It is true. Does it tell the whole story?

 

Of course not. But it's clearly a significant part of the explanation for why Henry was compelled to bring in a guy like DD.

[notin]

Still 15 games out of first place in 2015 though.

 

Expectations were fairly high for that team after signing Hanley and Pablo and "rebuilding" the rotation with Porcello, Miley and Masterson-to go with Buchholz and Kelly.

 

It was that 'Who's the ace?' rotation that made me seriously question Ben's thinking for the first time.

 

Who was the ace of the World Series champion that season?

 

The Sox tried the "groundball pitcher" approach, with guys like Porcello, Miley, and Masterson all having history if inducing lots of groundballs. And Sandoval actually had a solid history as a defensive 3B, giving them what should have been a good defensive infield. There was a strategy in place here. They even moved their worst defensive infielder to the outfield, possibly hoping the high groundball totals would mask his deficiencies.

 

They were not helped by a lot of people having flat out bad seasons, highlighted by Masterson, who was roughly a 4 fWAR pitcher for the Guardians, but a negative fWAR pitcher upon returning to Boston despite still only being 30 years old. And also by Sandoval and Ramirez, who at times looked like neither had ever played baseball before...

 

And don't forget, the Sox had some sort of moratorium on giving out big contracts to pitchers over 30. That's a deathnail on the free agent market, where the overwhelming bulk of pitchers are at least 30 years old...

[notin]

Of course not. But it's clearly a significant part of the explanation for why Henry was compelled to bring in a guy like DD.

 

But that doesn't mean he wanted to do so at the expense of Cherington.

 

In fact, the closest parallel between the two is the remarkably similar approach DD took with the 1997 Marlins and Cherington with the 2013 Red Sox (minus the fire sale). He possibly even assumed that this meant they could work together...