Realistically is Chris Sale past his prime?

[TylerD]

I ask this simply because I’m curious what some of you think that have more knowledge about pitchers than me. I keep waiting for Sale to turn this season around but he is getting worse and worse. Is it in his head, or mechanics or injury or just an off year? I’m not sure what to think anymore. But one thing I know for sure if he is getting more and more frustrated with himself and he is a work horse so if anyone can get out of this it’s Sale. But he just doesn’t look like the same guy anymore

[moonslav59]

A lot of the greatest pitchers end up having to reinvent themselves after they can no longer just blow people away with a 98 mph, well located fastball.

 

Price did.

 

I'm hoping it doesn't take Sale long to find the way.

 

Sale just turned 30 a few months back. That is not a normal age to decline steeply to retirement.

 

Coincidentally, Price struggled a little bit at age 30 and then improved- not to age 26-29 levels but better than age 30.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very concerned. I'm just trying to stay optimistic- maybe not for this year, but beyond.

 

He's still got a 94-95 mph fastball, so I thin there is still hope.

 

[jung]

As I have often said in these pages, I am not well qualified to talk about what is happening in the mind of a pitcher. I never had a mental picture of myself as a pitcher. But I can see what I can see with my eyes:

- Sale is yet another pitcher that slings the baseball. He does not throw with his legs. Frankly most of them do not throw with their legs. Their momentum toward home plate, the violence of the pitcher's motion toward home plate is frankly laughable across MLB now. So that results in more stress to the arm especially throwing as hard as they do.

- Either because they cannot grip the pitch with the rocket ship baseball or they can neither grip it and can't get the action on it they were used to getting, the Slider is turning into a crap pitch. Well, who do we think is most effected by the Slider turning into a crap pitch? Will anybody be more effected than Chris Sale?

 

Price does not generate much momentum toward home plate and he does not throw with his legs either. But Price has got an anomaly for an arm. Doctors have called it the only self healing arm they have ever seen and in fact it does appear to heal itself. So the stress is simply not as damaging to Price's arm as it appears to be to Sale's.

 

Still and all, so few of them throw with their legs now whereas that used to be the norm not the exception. Clubs are so desperate for pitching up and down their organizations minor and major league that I believe they no longer care how a guy gets the ball to home plate. If he can get it there, he's in and nobody apparently gives a damn how much damage he might be doing to his arm or how short his life expectancy throwing his best might be.

 

Having seen Nolan Ryan pitch close up, I can tell you that normal human beings standing were I got to occasionally stand to watch Nolan pitch would come away wondering how any human being stood in as a hitter against all that momentum that came right up from Nolan's shoe laces through his lower half directed toward home plate. You could literally see hitters feeling like Nolan was attacking them personally with the baseball, he generated so much momentum toward home plate and his motion was that violent. Frankly so many starters threw with their legs as late as the 1980's and even the 1990's. At one time the NY Mets had more starters that threw with their legs than now exists in an entire MLB league.

 

Honestly, that was the technique most starting pitchers had back in the day. So, far less capable pitchers than Nolan Ryan could make a hitter feel like he was being personally attacked with a baseball and you had to stand in against that or you just had no chance of accomplishing anything at any serious organized, competitive level of baseball.

 

I would say MLB has to go back to a baseball these guys can throw and Sale himself may likely have to find another pitch.

Edited July 14, 2019 by jung

[jacksonianmarch]

Sale’s issue isn’t finding a new pitch. It’s locating what he has. The balls they were hitting were center cut mostly fastballs. It’s a strange thing. He gets ahead of guys well, but when he should be dotting a corner or elevating out of the zone, he’s leaving the ball in the happy zone and he’s getting creamed. He is still pitching like he’s got 98 when he wants it. The problem is, he still has 98 sometime, but when he reaches back, he sometimes also has 91 and he is getting lit. He needs to adjust

[jung]

Sale’s issue isn’t finding a new pitch. It’s locating what he has. The balls they were hitting were center cut mostly fastballs. It’s a strange thing. He gets ahead of guys well, but when he should be dotting a corner or elevating out of the zone, he’s leaving the ball in the happy zone and he’s getting creamed. He is still pitching like he’s got 98 when he wants it. The problem is, he still has 98 sometime, but when he reaches back, he sometimes also has 91 and he is getting lit. He needs to adjust

 

He does not have 98 but his far from his norm Slider is what is exposing his FB and his lack of a decent Change is not helping. He simply loses confidence in his Slider either as soon as he starts throwing it in earnest or when somebody like Turner hit it hard for a base hit. Same thing happened in two straight starts now. Slider confidence gone, here comes an avalanche of hit me please FB's. Without getting his Slider to exhibit the kind of effectiveness he is used to with it, he is pretty helpless and I am not convinced he would not be helpless even if he could throw 95-96 as a starter. In fact he has thrown 95-96 as a starter this year. Hasn't helped.

[notin]

He does not have 98 but his far from his norm Slider is what is exposing his FB and his lack of a decent Change is not helping. He simply loses confidence in his Slider either as soon as he starts throwing it in earnest or when somebody like Turner hit it hard for a base hit. Same thing happened in two straight starts now. Slider confidence gone, here comes an avalanche of hit me please FB's. Without getting his Slider to exhibit the kind of effectiveness he is used to with it, he is pretty helpless and I am not convinced he would not be helpless even if he could throw 95-96 as a starter. In fact he has thrown 95-96 as a starter this year. Hasn't helped.

 

He was throwing 97-98 in the first inning yesterday...

[Bellhorn04]

He was throwing 97-98 in the first inning yesterday...

 

Right. But not topping 95 after the second inning. The quick loss of velocity in itself kind of shows what a mess he is.

 

Maybe we have our closer for the next 5 years - a very expensive one.

[OH FOY]

Once a shoulder always a shoulder. His ball is flat not biting. Both the Sliders and Fastballs. He's probably trying to make adjustments, so not to have pain.

Sox should send him to who ever worked on Julio Urias shoulder.

This has been longer then we realize.

Last 30 games including the Play-offs Sale has a 4.27 ERA.

[Elktonnick]

Right. But not topping 95 after the second inning. The quick loss of velocity in itself kind of shows what a mess he is.

 

Maybe we have our closer for the next 5 years - a very expensive one.

 

To summarize what I think is an excellent analysis of the issues surrounding Sale by all of the previous posters, Sale needs to take some time to adjust his approach towards pitching. This brings to my general concern to Boston's overall approach toward the development of its pitchers. Something is seriously wrong despite the championships. None of the starters are organizational products.

[Bellhorn04]

Once a shoulder always a shoulder. His ball is flat not biting. Both the Sliders and Fastballs. He's probably trying to make adjustments, so not to have pain.

Sox should send him to who ever worked on Julio Urias shoulder.

This has been longer then we realize.

Last 30 games including the Play-offs Sale has a 4.27 ERA.

 

The enigma is that the team obviously felt his health was not a big issue when they signed him to the extension.

[TylerD]

A lot of the greatest pitchers end up having to reinvent themselves after they can no longer just blow people away with a 98 mph, well located fastball.

 

Price did.

 

I'm hoping it doesn't take Sale long to find the way.

 

Sale just turned 30 a few months back. That is not a normal age to decline steeply to retirement.

 

Coincidentally, Price struggled a little bit at age 30 and then improved- not to age 26-29 levels but better than age 30.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very concerned. I'm just trying to stay optimistic- maybe not for this year, but beyond.

 

He's still got a 94-95 mph fastball, so I thin there is still hope.

 

 

Agreed! Hopefully the offseason gives him time to work some stuff out!

[TylerD]

As I have often said in these pages, I am not well qualified to talk about what is happening in the mind of a pitcher. I never had a mental picture of myself as a pitcher. But I can see what I can see with my eyes:

- Sale is yet another pitcher that slings the baseball. He does not throw with his legs. Frankly most of them do not throw with their legs. Their momentum toward home plate, the violence of the pitcher's motion toward home plate is frankly laughable across MLB now. So that results in more stress to the arm especially throwing as hard as they do.

- Either because they cannot grip the pitch with the rocket ship baseball or they can neither grip it and can't get the action on it they were used to getting, the Slider is turning into a crap pitch. Well, who do we think is most effected by the Slider turning into a crap pitch? Will anybody be more effected than Chris Sale?

 

Price does not generate much momentum toward home plate and he does not throw with his legs either. But Price has got an anomaly for an arm. Doctors have called it the only self healing arm they have ever seen and in fact it does appear to heal itself. So the stress is simply not as damaging to Price's arm as it appears to be to Sale's.

 

Still and all, so few of them throw with their legs now whereas that used to be the norm not the exception. Clubs are so desperate for pitching up and down their organizations minor and major league that I believe they no longer care how a guy gets the ball to home plate. If he can get it there, he's in and nobody apparently gives a damn how much damage he might be doing to his arm or how short his life expectancy throwing his best might be.

 

Having seen Nolan Ryan pitch close up, I can tell you that normal human beings standing were I got to occasionally stand to watch Nolan pitch would come away wondering how any human being stood in as a hitter against all that momentum that came right up from Nolan's shoe laces through his lower half directed toward home plate. You could literally see hitters feeling like Nolan was attacking them personally with the baseball, he generated so much momentum toward home plate and his motion was that violent. Frankly so many starters threw with their legs as late as the 1980's and even the 1990's. At one time the NY Mets had more starters that threw with their legs than now exists in an entire MLB league.

 

Honestly, that was the technique most starting pitchers had back in the day. So, far less capable pitchers than Nolan Ryan could make a hitter feel like he was being personally attacked with a baseball and you had to stand in against that or you just had no chance of accomplishing anything at any serious organized, competitive level of baseball.

 

I would say MLB has to go back to a baseball these guys can throw and Sale himself may likely have to find another pitch.

Well said Jung I never thought Price would recover like he has. Granted he isn’t going 7 or 8 innings this year he is still throwing the baseball damn good. He looks more like our Ace than anyone. Hope Sale figures it out eventually.

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed! Hopefully the offseason gives him time to work some stuff out!

 

To hell with the offseason, we've got a lot of real season left to play.

[OH FOY]

One thing for sure, Chris Sale is a fighting Dog, that will do anything to win. Great Teammate that you want. Hope he an figure it out. If it isn't the shoulder, then Sox signed a Pitcher that's declining, on his style of pitching.

[oldtimer]

The enigma is that the team obviously felt his health was not a big issue when they signed him to the extension.

 

Another enigma is the oft presented theory that Leon is a magical potion as far as Sales pitching is concerned. It's really up to Sale to pitch better and Leon makes little difference in the equation, except Leon doesn't help the offense.

[OH FOY]

The enigma is that the team obviously felt his health was not a big issue when they signed him to the extension.

 

Well we signed guys that never play in the Majors, to great money. Teams do stupid things, when your team has money to spend. Tons of stupid contracts, that the guy is injured and contributes very little to teams. And teams still sign them. Because of history that one time, they were dominant.

Once injured at work, got therapy, always hurt, went to 2nd opinion needed surgery on my wrist, for torn ligament. 1st Diagnosis was a work Doctor. Sprain wrist.

Nothing to lose to get another Diagnosis.

Edited July 14, 2019 by OH FOY!

[TylerD]

To hell with the offseason, we've got a lot of real season left to play.

 

True enough. And we did hit a 5 game win streak. Price has been rock solid and E Rod is really looking awesome his last 3 starts. Adding Cashner gives us a full rotation. Hope Sale figures it out. After his rough start to the season he was really looking like the Sale of old. Not sure what’s happened the last 5 games but it’s been ugly.

[OH FOY]

 

Cashner has never played on a team that finished over .500.

Edited July 14, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Kimmi]

One thing for sure, Chris Sale is a fighting Dog, that will do anything to win. Great Teammate that you want. Hope he an figure it out. If it isn't the shoulder, then Sox signed a Pitcher that's declining, on his style of pitching.

 

By all accounts, Sale is a fierce competitor who is harder on himself than anyone else is. I can't believe it's a health issue. The Sox would not have extended him, nor would they let him continue to pitch if he's not healthy. My money is on Sale to figure it out. Just hope it's sooner rather than later.

[TylerD]

 

Cashner has never played on a team that finished over .500.

 

We shall break that curse.

[TylerD]

By all accounts, Sale is a fierce competitor who is harder on himself than anyone else is. I can't believe it's a health issue. The Sox would not have extended him, nor would they let him continue to pitch if he's not healthy. My money is on Sale to figure it out. Just hope it's sooner rather than later.

 

Well said Kimmi.

[bosoxmal]

His "demise" started a year ago! Noby is going to wave a magic wand. He's done. A couple of months ago, I thought he would make a good closer. Not any more. Maybe mop-up duty just in case he does improve. But 3-9 ? 3-9

 

When he hit pitch No 40 last night they should have had someone warming up. Alex and DD have got to face the facts. "Hoping" days are long over.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I'm not sure what the rush was when it came to resigning Sale especially after his problems/issues from last season. The Red Sox should have waited.

 

If they waited, maybe the Red Sox go after Cole in the off-season rather than Sale. Cole is better than Sale and a little younger. Then again, Cole is going to cost a fortune in the free agent market.

 

At one time, people heavily criticized the Price contract. Price morphed into a different type of pitcher and has been pretty effective and was most effective in the 2018 post-season. It is hard to complain about Price's contract after he helped carry the Red Sox last season in October. Likewise, it will take a few years to figure out if the Sale contract was a good idea or bad idea.

 

Sale's decline does help expose what a useless bum Sandy Leon is. If they don't trust Vazquez behind the plate, the Red Sox need to find a starting catcher for 2020.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Fan_since_Boggs

[TylerD]

His "demise" started a year ago! Noby is going to wave a magic wand. He's done. A couple of months ago, I thought he would make a good closer. Not any more. Maybe mop-up duty just in case he does improve. But 3-9 ? 3-9

 

When he hit pitch No 40 last night they should have had someone warming up. Alex and DD have got to face the facts. "Hoping" days are long over.

 

To be fair that slow start impacted all the starters. Even Price as good as he’s been started slow. Sale really got it together but his last 5 starts have been less than awful. I still think and hope he will rebound. I’ll give him another season before I write him off as used goods.

[OH FOY]

By all accounts, Sale is a fierce competitor who is harder on himself than anyone else is. I can't believe it's a health issue. The Sox would not have extended him, nor would they let him continue to pitch if he's not healthy. My money is on Sale to figure it out. Just hope it's sooner rather than later.

 

I look at his history from last year, and the teams he faced +innings. Has to be injury related.

On July 11th the Sox shut him down for 11 Days.

Came back on July 22 and faced Detroit, went 6 innings did OK.

Then he went right back on regular turn then, it started.

Came back on July 27th faced the Twins, went 6 innings did good, but Sox shut him down for another 2 weeks.

Aug. 12th came back and went 5 innings, 1 hit ball against the O's.

Then shut down for 30 days.

Sept. 11th 1 inning Toronto

Sept. 16 against the Mets went 3 innings, trying to build the shoulder.

Sept. 21 against Cleveland went 3.1 innings.

Sept. 26 against O's went 4.2 innings, and got hit pretty hard.

From July 27th to Sept 26th, pitched a total of 23 innings.

Throw out that 1 inning that he pitched to win it, Sale had a 4.40 ERA, in the Play-offs last year.

The last 3 Months wouldn't you have a little concern that something might have gotten by the Red Sox Doctors.

It has continued, and Sale is the last guy who will say something especially after signing good extension. Not that he's a bad person trying to get over on the Sox. The guy will go out there with no arm.

I think something got by our Doctors. I would get 2nd opinion. Tears happen that you don't see.

3 Month Shut-Down then whole Off Season shut down, and he has declined.

Has to be injury, too good of a Pitcher for too long, for this to suddenly happen.

Edited July 14, 2019 by OH FOY!

[notin]

 

Cashner has never played on a team that finished over .500.

 

Point?

[FredLynn]

To hell with the offseason, we've got a lot of real season left to play.

 

Unfortunately you are right. We will get to witness the ongoing mediocrity that is the 2019 Boston Red Sox. As for Sale, well, its almost August. He is highly unlikely to turn it around this year. Sure glad we didn't sign him to a long term deal.....oh wait.........................

[TylerD]

Point?

 

Was wondering that myself. He is now on a team well over .500

[dgalehouse]

Sale ' s diminished velocity is a real concern . Without the velocity , he is simply not the same pitcher that he was . He can still be effective, but not the dominant ace that we thought we signed .

[TylerD]

Sale ' s diminished velocity is a real concern . Without the velocity , he is simply not the same pitcher that he was . He can still be effective, but not the dominant ace that we thought we signed .

 

Agreed. Looked like he was starting to get his velocity up there again he would throw some 97’s but I don’t think he can go much past that. I don’t honk he will be as good as last season however these last 5 games have been embarrassing. Not sure what has changed as he got his s*** together after that brutal start. But he’s quickly going back to where he was at the start of the season.