Swihart DFA

[Kimmi]

Really? I just checked the AL catcher DWAR's for 2015. Leon's was .7, Hanigan's .3, and Swihart's -.4. He caught in 83 games and started 78 as catcher.

 

I'm not sure what you are arguing with me about.

 

I'm not saying Swihart was great. I'm saying that for someone who was called up well before he was ready and thrown into the fire, he did an admirable job.

[Kimmi]

Then how do you know they even exist or are effective?

 

A lot of this you have to take by what others, pitchers and coaches/managers, are saying about the player. When a player is highly touted in some way by the people who work most closely with him, there is probably some truth to it.

 

Outside of that, BP or somebody once did a study on catchers with a focus on how Varitek didn't get the defensive credit he deserved. This was before Leon's time, but the point is that analytics people are so good that they can take the data, and eliminate virtually every variable possible, thereby leaving no other reasonable explanation than the catcher's 'handling of the pitcher' or 'pitch calling ability' or whatever you want to call it.

 

We do not have access to a more recent study, but I bet the teams have access to some such study.

[notin]

A lot of this you have to take by what others, pitchers and coaches/managers, are saying about the player. When a player is highly touted in some way by the people who work most closely with him, there is probably some truth to it.

 

Outside of that, BP or somebody once did a study on catchers with a focus on how Varitek didn't get the defensive credit he deserved. This was before Leon's time, but the point is that analytics people are so good that they can take the data, and eliminate virtually every variable possible, thereby leaving no other reasonable explanation than the catcher's 'handling of the pitcher' or 'pitch calling ability' or whatever you want to call it.

 

We do not have access to a more recent study, but I bet the teams have access to some such study.

 

 

So therefore it is quantifiable, just by metrics we can’t find on Fangraphs...

[Kimmi]

I think it’s easy to prove Belichick’s superiority, and in a very quantifiable way. Check his fingers.

 

But as for the intangible/faith qualities, it’s not about existence. Sure they exist. It’s about acceptance and complacency. When the team thinks “well this worked last year,” they’re ignoring that it worked in a different league. Other teams around, particularly the closer ones, will improve. And what worked when those were lesser teams might not work so well when they’re better ones. Especially since this process involves evaluating one small part of a very large machine.

 

Sure, there is the adage “if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.” But just because it isn’t broken doesn’t mean it’s optimized...

 

One of the factors hindering the team's improvement was the financial constraints that were placed on Dombrowski.

 

Dombrowski did improve the team in the areas that he felt most needed improvement, which were starting pitching and having the Pearce/Moreland platoon for the entire season. I really don't agree that the team had a sense of complacency and stood pat over the offseason. The truth is that the team really didn't have much need for improvement to begin with. They did improve where they felt it was most necessary. They just didn't improve in the areas that some people felt like they should have because the FO had different priorities.

[Kimmi]

Even Kimmi fell for the decent catcher OPS Swihart had in 2015.

 

What?

[Maxbialystock]

I'm not sure what you are arguing with me about.

 

I'm not saying Swihart was great. I'm saying that for someone who was called up well before he was ready and thrown into the fire, he did an admirable job.

 

You're right I guess. But, honestly, I think 2015 was the year that poisoned the well for management's perception of Swihart's catching ability. Fair or unfair, the Sox have generally avoided having him catch MLB games in the now 4 succeeding seasons. Last year was a complete stunner: they kept him on the active roster, but didn't let him catch a game until Leon or Vazquez went on the DL.

 

In defense of your position, I will add that this year Swihart caught the entirety of one of the Sox few wins--a shutout by the bullpen.

[Kimmi]

So therefore it is quantifiable, just by metrics we can’t find on Fangraphs...

 

More quantifiable than some think.

 

Nothing will ever be 100% quantifiable when dealing with human beings. But yes, the analytics people have a good handle on such things, though they will fully admit they still have a long way to go in completely understanding pitch calling ability, which in no way means that what they do have is useless or wrong.

[notin]

One of the factors hindering the team's improvement was the financial constraints that were placed on Dombrowski.

 

Dombrowski did improve the team in the areas that he felt most needed improvement, which were starting pitching and having the Pearce/Moreland platoon for the entire season. I really don't agree that the team had a sense of complacency and stood pat over the offseason. The truth is that the team really didn't have much need for improvement to begin with. They did improve where they felt it was most necessary. They just didn't improve in the areas that some people felt like they should have because the FO had different priorities.

 

They lost two key pitchers at the back end of the bullpen and instead spent a big chunk of the remaining budget on the backup 1b. I do find those to be questionable priorities.

 

It felt like Dombrowski was so impressed with himself for finding Brasier, that he decided he could easily find a few more Brasiers. Hard-throwing? Check. Nowhere near an MLB team last year? Check. Come on aboard, Runzler, Ellington, Schlereth, Tapia, and Putnam...

[Bellhorn04]

You're right I guess. But, honestly, I think 2015 was the year that poisoned the well for management's perception of Swihart's catching ability. Fair or unfair, the Sox have generally avoided having him catch MLB games in the now 4 succeeding seasons. Last year was a complete stunner: they kept him on the active roster, but didn't let him catch a game until Leon or Vazquez went on the DL.

 

In defense of your position, I will add that this year Swihart caught the entirety of one of the Sox few wins--a shutout by the bullpen.

 

I think Dave Dombrowski actually likes Swihart a lot. DD says he was the one who 'broke the tie' in the organization about whether Leon or Swihart would be DFA'd earlier.

 

Then all hell broke loose with the pitching.

 

Swihart has suffered from a lot of bad luck among other things.

[Kimmi]

You're right I guess. But, honestly, I think 2015 was the year that poisoned the well for management's perception of Swihart's catching ability. Fair or unfair, the Sox have generally avoided having him catch MLB games in the now 4 succeeding seasons. Last year was a complete stunner: they kept him on the active roster, but didn't let him catch a game until Leon or Vazquez went on the DL.

 

In defense of your position, I will add that this year Swihart caught the entirety of one of the Sox few wins--a shutout by the bullpen.

 

I really don't have a problem with the Sox calling Swihart up in 2015. They had no choice.

 

It's the way they handled him afterwards. IMO, they panicked in 2016 after a handful of games, as they did this year. They gave him almost no playing time last year, but kept him on the roster.

 

Either give him a fair chance to catch or don't. Stop with this in between stuff.

[moonslav59]

What?

 

Well, you did say, "he did an admirable job."

 

Since his only plus that year was offense, I made the assumption.

[Kimmi]

They lost two key pitchers at the back end of the bullpen and instead spent a big chunk of the remaining budget on the backup 1b. I do find those to be questionable priorities.

 

It felt like Dombrowski was so impressed with himself for finding Brasier, that he decided he could easily find a few more Brasiers. Hard-throwing? Check. Nowhere near an MLB team last year? Check. Come on aboard, Runzler, Ellington, Schlereth, Tapia, and Putnam...

 

Well I happen to agree with Dombrowski on prioritizing other areas to spend on besides the bullpen. I have always felt it unwise to give huge contracts to relievers and spend big on the pen. I applaud him on his BP strategy this year.

 

It's okay that you disagree with his priorities. Most people do.

 

But again, my point is that we didn't stand pat. We made improvements, just not in the areas that you would prefer.

[moonslav59]

I really don't have a problem with the Sox calling Swihart up in 2015. They had no choice.

 

It's the way they handled him afterwards. IMO, they panicked in 2016 after a handful of games, as they did this year. They gave him almost no playing time last year, but kept him on the roster.

 

Either give him a fair chance to catch or don't. Stop with this in between stuff.

 

They had to keep him on the roster, because he was out of options.

 

He wasn't good enough to play everyday.

 

They tried to give him chances to prove himself at other positions, but he failed (or got hurt) there, too.

 

When he still had options, he sucked in the minor, too (after 2014).

 

He has sucked from 2015 to 2019 with a brief streak of decent hitting in 2015. Even that was 3 years ago!

 

I just don't agree with the position that he "wasn't given a chance." The guy got more chances than he deserved.

[Kimmi]

Well, you did say, "he did an admirable job."

 

Since his only plus that year was offense, I made the assumption.

 

He did do an admirable job for a catcher who was nowhere ready for such a large role on a major league team.

 

Truth be told, I wasn't even talking about offense at all.

 

A catcher's offense means very little to me.

[moonslav59]

He did do an admirable job for a catcher who was nowhere ready for such a large role on a major league team.

 

Truth be told, I wasn't even talking about offense at all.

 

A catcher's offense means very little to me.

 

He really didn't do a great job on defense and with the staff in 2015--certainly not in the "admirable" category even considering the conditions.

 

It's not like the guy was years away from ML ready. He was our starting catcher to start 2016 as well. He played AAA ball in 2014 and had an .810 OPS between AA & AAA that year. They may have called him up at some point in 2015 anyways.

 

2015 CERA:

 

3.47 Leon

4.51 Swihart

 

4.34 Team

Edited April 18, 2019 by moonslav59

[Kimmi]

They had to keep him on the roster, because he was out of options.

 

He wasn't good enough to play everyday.

 

They tried to give him chances to prove himself at other positions, but he failed (or got hurt) there, too.

 

When he still had options, he sucked in the minor, too (after 2014).

 

He has sucked from 2015 to 2019 with a brief streak of decent hitting in 2015. Even that was 3 years ago!

 

I just don't agree with the position that he "wasn't given a chance." The guy got more chances than he deserved.

 

When you demote a guy after 8 games one season and try to make him a LFer, then 17 ? games in another season, that is not a fair chance.

 

When a player stays on a roster an entire season and gets almost no playing time, that is not a fair chance.

 

When you say Swihart will focus solely on catching a certain year, then shortly thereafter have him taking reps at different positions, that is not a fair chance.

[moonslav59]

When you demote a guy after 8 games one season and try to make him a LFer, then 17 ? games in another season, that is not a fair chance.

 

It wasn't just those 8 games that decided his fate that season. Vaz was coming off an injury, and there was a decent enough sample size to show he was not a good catcher. He then had a chance in AAA after the demotion, and he sucked (.655 OPS in AAA). He even got called back up later in 2016, and he did nothting to distinguish himself.

 

When a player stays on a roster an entire season and gets almost no playing time, that is not a fair chance.

He got a chance when Vaz got hurt. He never showed anything promising after his 2014 season in the minors. He played in over 300 games from 2015-2019. While most were scattered and interupted, that's still more games than many other failed prospects ever get to see while playing so poorly.

 

When you say Swihart will focus solely on catching a certain year, then shortly thereafter have him taking reps at different positions, that is not a fair chance.

To me, it was way more than fair. He sucks as a catcher, so they gave him a second, third and fourth chance to make it at other positions. They did him a favor!

 

He failed with every chance we gave him.

[Kimmi]

When you demote a guy after 8 games one season and try to make him a LFer, then 17 ? games in another season, that is not a fair chance.

 

It wasn't just those 8 games that decided his fate that season. Vaz was coming off an injury, and there was a decent enough sample size to show he was not a good catcher. He then had a chance in AAA after the demotion, and he sucked (.655 OPS in AAA). He even got called back up later in 2016, and he did nothting to distinguish himself.

 

When a player stays on a roster an entire season and gets almost no playing time, that is not a fair chance.

He got a chance when Vaz got hurt. He never showed anything promising after his 2014 season in the minors. He played in over 300 games from 2015-2019. While most were scattered and interupted, that's still more games than many other failed prospects ever get to see while playing so poorly.

 

When you say Swihart will focus solely on catching a certain year, then shortly thereafter have him taking reps at different positions, that is not a fair chance.

To me, it was way more than fair. He sucks as a catcher, so they gave him a second, third and fourth chance to make it at other positions. They did him a favor!

 

He failed with every chance we gave him.

 

We will have to just disagree Moon.

 

You aren't going to convince me that he was given a fair chance and that he wasn't jerked around.

 

I know I'm not going to convince you either.

[moonslav59]

We will have to just disagree Moon.

 

You aren't going to convince me that he was given a fair chance and that he wasn't jerked around.

 

I know I'm not going to convince you either.

 

How many prospects that are doing poorly end up sticking around that long?

 

That get chances to change positions to stick around, despite hitting poorly?

 

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, and I get the point that he never really got many extended chances to "prove himself," but when he did, he did not do well, even in AAA.

 

Yes, he was hurt for some of the time, but he basically sucked from 2015 to 2019. That's a long time to give someone doing so poorly.

[dgalehouse]

How many prospects that are doing poorly end up sticking around that long?

 

That get chances to change positions to stick around, despite hitting poorly?

 

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, and I get the point that he never really got many extended chances to "prove himself," but when he did, he did not do well, even in AAA.

 

Yes, he was hurt for some of the time, but he basically sucked from 2015 to 2019. That's a long time to give someone doing so poorly.

One last parting shot at Swihart as he exits .

[moonslav59]

One last parting shot at Swihart as he exits .

 

I think the guy got more chances than his performance deserved.

 

The whole "He never got a real chance" argument rings hollow to me. He did nothing since AA ball way back in 2014 to warrant being given an extended look anywhere.

 

IMO, Sox management bent over backwards to accommodate him and help him find any way to stick in the bigs.

 

There was a time I had high hopes for Swihart, as many of us did. I hope he finds a way to get that long extended look-see, just so we can all know what player he really is.

 

[Sox75]

Can both sides actually be right?

Yes!

Swi's history in the minors NEVER justified 'a shot' in the majors in the first place. All you have to do is look at his minor league stats to absolutely confirm that. His hitting stats were anemic even in the minors. I find it incredible that SO MANY Sox Fans here still impute "good hitting" catcher to a guy who has NEVER hit well. He manifestly has never hit well, yet some are absolutely convinced that he has.....

 

So..... the Sox were forced to bring him up originally as a panic move. They did not have another option at that time, so they called up Swi. Eventually, they threw him into LF for Hanley, & the rest was history.

 

After that, they have kept Swi up with the big team in a bizarre attempt to keep giving him chances where none was ever warranted. Time & time again, they've continued to keep him up, but never give him "a shot," knowing that he was only there as an insurance policy. They knew he wasn't ready as a catcher in the minors, but seemed to want to keep him up to market him for a trade.

 

The whole thing was a sick joke. He was never going to "prove himself" because the ONLY thing he really has going for him is the fact that he is a very good athlete.

He will never be a really good catcher, but he could potentially become a half-decent backup catcher with a floundering team.

 

Bottom line....

 

Kimmi is correct that Swi was never really given 'a shot,' to play consistently, but Moon is correct that Swi has never had the goods to deserve a shot. He never should have been called up in the first place.

 

Now, perhaps he gets a consistent shot to prove himself somewhere? I don't think things change that much for him.

He still needs to play everyday ..... in the minors.

[moonslav59]

Can both sides actually be right?

Yes!

Swi's history in the minors NEVER justified 'a shot' in the majors in the first place. All you have to do is look at his minor league stats to absolutely confirm that. His hitting stats were anemic even in the minors. I find it incredible that SO MANY Sox Fans here still impute "good hitting" catcher to a guy who has NEVER hit well. He manifestly has never hit well, yet some are absolutely convinced that he has.....

 

So..... the Sox were forced to bring him up originally as a panic move. They did not have another option at that time, so they called up Swi. Eventually, they threw him into LF for Hanley, & the rest was history.

 

After that, they have kept Swi up with the big team in a bizarre attempt to keep giving him chances where none was ever warranted. Time & time again, they've continued to keep him up, but never give him "a shot," knowing that he was only there as an insurance policy. They knew he wasn't ready as a catcher in the minors, but seemed to want to keep him up to market him for a trade.

 

The whole thing was a sick joke. He was never going to "prove himself" because the ONLY thing he really has going for him is the fact that he is a very good athlete.

He will never be a really good catcher, but he could potentially become a half-decent backup catcher with a floundering team.

 

Bottom line....

 

Kimmi is correct that Swi was never really given 'a shot,' to play consistently, but Moon is correct that Swi has never had the goods to deserve a shot. He never should have been called up in the first place.

 

Now, perhaps he gets a consistent shot to prove himself somewhere? I don't think things change that much for him.

He still needs to play everyday ..... in the minors.

 

Well said, but I will add that the argument that "He was never given a real chance" implies he deserved one, and that he never got one. I disagree on both fronts.

 

Besides, he actually got a pretty long look when he was the starter for about a half a year. He hit decently that year (good for a catcher), but never showed growth on defense or "staff-handling." He started the next season, and when they saw no further growth on defense, he was quickly (and rightfully) replaced- pretty much for good as a catcher.

 

He got a pretty good look last year, when Vaz got hurt, and again did not distinguish himself.

 

How many prospects, who never did great in the minors, sticks around so long with much of it on the ML roster?

 

I'm okay with what happened, but I get worked up when people say, "He never got a chance!"

 

IMO, he got more chances (including looks at other positions), more time and more looks than anyone with his record deserved.

 

I can name dozens of ex-Sox prospects who had great minor league careers and got 1/10th the chances Swihart got. Some, who went elsewhere proved they never belonged, but even if Swihart goes on to prove he does belong, I will still believe we gave him more opportunities than he deserved.

 

[Slasher9]

3-0 since the trade....

[a700hitter]

To sum up, Swi stinks.

[mvp 78]

3-0 since the trade....

 

Dbags were on a 4 game winning streak prior to the trade. 1-2 since.

[SCM33]

3-0 since the trade....

 

To sum up, Swi stinks.

 

Dbags were on a 4 game winning streak prior to the trade. 1-2 since.

 

HAHAHAHA.

 

The poor guy hasn't even had an AB yet!

[Larry33]

I knew Swihart had no chance to clear waivers luckily he got traded. Mike Hazen and Torey Lovullo were familiar with Blake from their time with the Red Sox organization. Plus if he would've hit waiver the Blue Jays would've probably claimed him with Ben Cherrington in their front office as VP of baseball operations he the one who drafted him in the first round back in 2011.

[mvp 78]

HAHAHAHA.

 

The poor guy hasn't even had an AB yet!

 

That's how horrible his stank is.

[Slasher9]

HAHAHAHA.

 

The poor guy hasn't even had an AB yet!

 

Exactly. He’s such a good catcher but still can’t get into a game...collusion!