Vasquez

[notin]

Maybe some teams aren't buying into the defensive metrics surrounding catchers? Maybe there was some breaking point for his performance last year? IDK.

 

 

I think they also like some offense at the catcher spot when money is involved. Defense-only catchers aren’t the most difficult commodity to find...

[mvp 78]

I think they also like some offense at the catcher spot when money is involved. Defense-only catchers aren’t the most difficult commodity to find...

 

He had a 3 fWAR season two years ago tho. Not many guys reach that.

[moonslav59]

I think they also like some offense at the catcher spot when money is involved. Defense-only catchers aren’t the most difficult commodity to find...

 

No, they are pretty plentiful, but it takes time for a catcher and pitcher to build a great relationship, so it's probably not a good idea to continuously change your catcher-pitcher combinations.

[notin]

No, they are pretty plentiful, but it takes time for a catcher and pitcher to build a great relationship, so it's probably not a good idea to continuously change your catcher-pitcher combinations.

 

 

I think a lot of the journeyman catchers have gotten adept at building those types of relationships fast enough. It’s become their job to do so, after all.

[notin]

He had a 3 fWAR season two years ago tho. Not many guys reach that.

 

 

Helped by an insanely unsustainable .392 BABIP. No one was buying that offensive output was reproducible.

 

 

He’s a glove man, and has done nothing to disprove it since then...

[Bellhorn04]

The biggest X factor for catchers is calling pitches and sequencing them. Obviously assuming that they are the ones calling the pitches and that the pitcher is going along with them.

 

I know there are game plans put in place before the game, but I would assume there's also a fair amount of adjustments on the fly.

 

It's a huge strategic part of the game. And it's impossible to quantify as a value.

[mvp 78]

Helped by an insanely unsustainable .392 BABIP. No one was buying that offensive output was reproducible.

 

 

He’s a glove man, and has done nothing to disprove it since then...

 

LOL wut? It was a 273 BABIP in 2017 per fangraphs. He even had a negative oWAR of -18.2.

 

Are we talking about the same Martin Maldonado?

[notin]

The biggest X factor for catchers is calling pitches and sequencing them. Obviously assuming that they are the ones calling the pitches and that the pitcher is going along with them.

 

I know there are game plans put in place before the game, but I would assume there's also a fair amount of adjustments on the fly.

 

It's a huge strategic part of the game. And it's impossible to quantify as a value.

 

 

I imagine some of those impulsive changes are based on game planning somewhat. It is hard to quantify, but how much of it is catcher alone? A lot of planning can change between innings...

[mvp 78]

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=6887&position=C

 

This guy? ^^^

[notin]

LOL wut? It was a 273 BABIP in 2017 per fangraphs. He even had a negative oWAR of -18.2.

 

Are we talking about the same Martin Maldonado?

 

 

Your use of pronouns lead me to believe you were referring to Leon. I looked up ois fWAR and BABIP for 2016. His fWAR was 2.3, so I assumed you used bWAR and knew what you were talking about...

[notin]

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=6887&position=C

 

This guy? ^^^

 

 

Yes.

 

Not sure why no one wanted him and it took a season-ending injury to Sal Perez to get him a job. But while he was out there sending resumes, it did increase the likelihood of Leon clearing waivers...

[mvp 78]

Your use of pronouns lead me to believe you were referring to Leon. I looked up ois fWAR and BABIP for 2016. His fWAR was 2.3, so I assumed you used bWAR and knew what you were talking about...

 

Sure... blame me for you not being able to follow the conversation...

[notin]

Sure... blame me for you not being able to follow the conversation...

 

 

Not you. You and your ambiguous use of pronouns.

 

 

So, yeah. You...

[moonslav59]

I think a lot of the journeyman catchers have gotten adept at building those types of relationships fast enough. It’s become their job to do so, after all.

 

Okay, let's say Leon was picked up by the Rays, and is immediately used primarily with 2 starting pitchers.

 

How many starts would you think it takes for him to get near the level he got with Sale and Price?

 

I know Price got off to a rough start with the Sox in 2016, but he did end up with much better numbers with Leon by year's end. Chris Sale saw his WHIP improve just about every month of his first year with the Sox.

 

I'm not saying this is proof of anything, but I think it takes at least a couple months to build a tight relationship.

 

Yes, some are better than others at building that tightness quickly.

 

 

 

[notin]

Okay, let's say Leon was picked up by the Rays, and is immediately used primarily with 2 starting pitchers.

 

How many starts would you think it takes for him to get near the level he got with Sale and Price?

 

I know Price got off to a rough start with the Sox in 2016, but he did end up with much better numbers with Leon by year's end. Chris Sale saw his WHIP improve just about every month of his first year with the Sox.

 

I'm not saying this is proof of anything, but I think it takes at least a couple months to build a tight relationship.

 

Yes, some are better than others at building that tightness quickly.

 

 

 

 

 

I’d say that’s 100% dependent on the pitcher involved, and possibly on the catcher, too. If you have someone on the mound thinking “I’m just going to give the hitter my hardest slider and let the catcher worry about keeping it off thebackstop,” how critical is this relationship?

 

I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I do think you might be giving it more credit than need be. Multiple teams switch catcher every year. That doesn’t mean it’s a death nail for the pitching staff...

[moonslav59]

I’d say that’s 100% dependent on the pitcher involved, and possibly on the catcher, too. If you have someone on the mound thinking “I’m just going to give the hitter my hardest slider and let the catcher worry about keeping it off thebackstop,” how critical is this relationship?

 

I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I do think you might be giving it more credit than need be. Multiple teams switch catcher every year. That doesn’t mean it’s a death nail for the pitching staff...

 

There are many cases where specific pitchers almost always pitch to just one catcher.

 

I doubt it's mostly because of that catchers ability to keep the ball from rolling to the backstop.

 

(I admit several pitchers don't seem to care or don't do much different no matter who their catcher is. With Sale & Price it seems to matter.)

[SCM33]

Nobody is coming close to saying Leon is any where near Bench.

 

(BTW, Leon has the best seasonal OPS of all our catchers since 2017. I'm not disagreeing with you on him being our worst hitting catcher, but let's not act like Swihart and Vaz have proven they are MUCH better. Swihart "is not the next coming of Posey, get real."

 

If a pitcher thinks he throws better to catcher XYZ then he will...

 

I definitely agree with this and the whole "comfort level" argument, but I doubt Sale throws 8 mph harder with Leon today.

 

This is almost all false. Leon just turned 30, Vazquez turns 29 this summer. There is a minimal age difference. Vazquez isn't a kid anymore, and isn't getting better, and he was for some reason signed to an extension through 2022. They both suck at hitting, but Vazquez was actually worse than Leon last season. Leon is a much better defender and isn't really close. Leon last season had a 1.1 Defensive WAR. for his whole career Vazquez is a 1 WAR player, was awful last season, and isn't off a great start this year, offensively or defensively.

 

Vazquez sucks, and everyone knows it, except some fans in the Boston.

 

Also, my argument has nothing to do with Sale, just to be clear, I just think Vazquez sucks.

 

I don't think you really comprehended my post. That is okay. I never said or implied the things you stated. As I stated, Toronto played 1970s Billy Ball (hit and run and stealing home). If you are too young to know what Billy Ball was, you can google it. I never said anything about location or velocity.

 

No, but ALL of the rotation looks like s*** this year. That didn't happen under Leon.

 

Bring him up then!!!!!!

 

Can't wait to see the excuses when the pitchers continue to suck, and Sale continues to throw 89 MPH.

[Jasonbay44]

Where did anyone say Leon would increase Sales velocity? I have yet to see this argument from anyone, besides you claiming people said it would happen.

 

I never said Leon would fix the pitching staff. But when two players both suck at hitting about equally, and one is clearly better defensively, why not go with the better defender in Leon? (And no, its really not close, Vazquez is incredibly overrated defensive).

[SCM33]

Where did anyone say Leon would increase Sales velocity? I have yet to see this argument from anyone, besides you claiming people said it would happen.

 

I never said Leon would fix the pitching staff. But when two players both suck at hitting about equally, and one is clearly better defensively, why not go with the better defender in Leon? (And no, its really not close, Vazquez is incredibly overrated defensive).

 

OK, fine....they are BOTH overrated defensively. Everyone acts like Leon will solve all the problems. He wont. He is a AAA catcher. He is where he should be.

 

The front office knows more than we do, and they think more of Vasquez and Swihart than they do Leon, to the point they were praying for another team to claim him, praying for another team to trade for him......now he sits in AAA, extremely overpaid.

[Slasher9]

Leongate

[SCM33]

Leongate

 

Leon hits grand slams every time hes up. Thats why they should call him up immediately. Hes that good.

[Jasonbay44]

Or maybe it was due to the fact Vazquez was signed to a dumb extension, and is due $4 million in 2020, and $6 million in 2021 despite the fact he was a negative WAR player last season, and has been equally as bad to start 2019.

 

There isn't much point to carry two "defensive" catchers, which Leon and Vazquez both are, so Swihart was given a spot due to the reason he is considered the best of the three offensively, and Vazquez was likely given the spot due to the guaranteed money the next two seasons, while Leon is on a 1 year deal.

 

No one is saying Leon will save the season, and I don't think anyone thinks Leon and/or Vazquez are the catchers of the future, but there really isn't ANYTHING Vazquez does better than Leon, and this is more of a knock on Vazquez, than me thinking Leon is a savior and a star or anything.

[Slasher9]

Leon hits grand slams every time hes up. Thats why they should call him up immediately. Hes that good.

 

Lol. Show me one post where I give a f*** about catcher offense....

[SCM33]

Or maybe it was due to the fact Vazquez was signed to a dumb extension, and is due $4 million in 2020, and $6 million in 2021 despite the fact he was a negative WAR player last season, and has been equally as bad to start 2019.

 

There isn't much point to carry two "defensive" catchers, which Leon and Vazquez both are, so Swihart was given a spot due to the reason he is considered the best of the three offensively, and Vazquez was likely given the spot due to the guaranteed money the next two seasons, while Leon is on a 1 year deal.

 

No one is saying Leon will save the season, and I don't think anyone thinks Leon and/or Vazquez are the catchers of the future, but there really isn't ANYTHING Vazquez does better than Leon, and this is more of a knock on Vazquez, than me thinking Leon is a savior and a star or anything.

 

He is in AAA, bc he is not very good. JB44, you are better than this. He is not that good, and doesnt make that much of a difference.

 

You know this.

[Jasonbay44]

I'm not saying he's good, he was a negative WAR player last year too, I'm saying Vazquez sucks too, and Leon is honestly a better option, due to how bad Vazquez sucks. The reason Leon is in AAA was money a money decision. No one is taking Vazquez with his salary and they aren't gonna release him and pay another guy to not be on the team.

[SCM33]

Originally Posted by Jasonbay44

I think you are misunderstanding what me and many others are arguing in this Leon debate. I am not saying Leon is the reason the pitchers were good, or that Vaz is the reason they are bad.

 

My argument is, neither Leon OR Vazquez are good hitters, they are both very bad hitters. However, Leon is way better defensively (and yes it is a pretty large difference, the metrics support this) and the pitchers seem to be more comfortable with him for whatever reason. So why have Vazquez over Leon? If they both suck in one area, and Leon is superior in the other, why keep Vazquez over Leon? There is nothing Vaz does better, that is the point being made. I'm not arguing that the pitchers are sucking because Leon, if they are MLB pichers being paid millions and can only pitch to Sandy Leon, that is a completely different issue I don't even know how to toggle.

 

I do understand what you are saying. I do think that Swihart and Vasquez are better offensive players. I am not sure how much catcher defense really matter.

 

Starting Catchers by World Series Champs:

2018 Leon (Now in AAA)

2017 McCann (backup catcher now, not a good catcher, criticized for ability to frame pitches )

2016 Montero (backup catcher now)

2015 Perez (out of baseball now)

2014 Posey (not a good defensive C, regardless of GG hello Jeter...no longer a catcher)

2013 Salty (not a good defensive C, out of baseball)

2012 Posey (not a good defensive C, regardless of GG hello Jeter...no longer a catcher)

 

We are overvaluing him. Simple as that.

[mvp 78]

Sill LOL at Perez “out of baseball.” Good stuff. You follow this game a lot I can tell.

[Bellhorn04]

Leongate

 

It's real.

[cp176]

If a pitcher thinks he throws better to catcher XYZ then he will...

 

EXACTLY - Man I've been arguing for belief in all of these good things for years. Atta boy Slasher. Mental is to physical. Chokers exist as do those few players having the ability to come through in the most difficult of situations.

 

i know that there will be plenty here happy to see this type of topic brought back to life! I'll have another beer tonight for all of the most important things in the game today - those things that cannot be measured.

[notin]

He is in AAA, bc he is not very good. JB44, you are better than this. He is not that good, and doesnt make that much of a difference.

 

You know this.

 

 

Maybe he is in AAA because the Sox figured him most likely to clear waivers?

 

Leon is far from an All Star, but do you agree he would be in MLB if Swihart had an option left?