Cora and Closers

[dgalehouse]

It is the very nature of second guessing. If Pedro was taken out and the bullpen blew the game , we would have heard the same second guessers call Little an idiot for yanking a Hall of Famer and going to the pen too soon. The intelligence of mangers is obviously reliant on the performance of the players they put on the field.

[dgalehouse]

I trust he will be. Lots of confidence getting that win against their rivals with that much pressure. He was unreal in game one outside of the early home run. I trust Kimbrel will be awesome against the Astros.

 

My take on Kimbrel is that he needs work more than he needs rest. When he has too many days off his velocity is fine , but he loses command of both of his pitches , especially the breaking ball.

[notin]

It is the very nature of second guessing. If Pedro was taken out and the bullpen blew the game , we would have heard the same second guessers call Little an idiot for yanking a Hall of Famer and going to the pen too soon. The intelligence of mangers is obviously reliant on the performance of the players they put on the field.

 

At least until we get Robot Managers...

[S5Dewey]

If Pedro got out of that inning, nobody would be screaming the choice was "nuts."

 

And if Sanchez' ball had carried another 25 feet everyone would be screaming "What was Kimbrel still doing out there? It was plain he had nothing!"

 

Sports is very results-oriented.

[cp176]

It appears you are only looking at Tito's successes, which is fine.

 

I know winning rings is the crown achievement for anyone, and if Cora never wins one, I'll probbaly adjust my opinion, but as of right now, he's the best Sox manager I have ever seen. He's loyal to the players but not to a fault.

 

BTW, I never said or implied success is linear. I expected many of our declining prime players to improve, no matter who was managing.

 

Really after one season you think he is the best you have ever seen. It sure was one of the best years I have seen but saying he is the best manager you have ever seen causes me to pause.

[Bellhorn04]

The bullpen had stabilized some and Pedro showed similar difficulties 3rd time through and whatnot in Game 5 of the Oakland series. It was not a great example of learned behavior on Grady's part. After that experience, having Pedro deliver a 3 run lead with 6 outs to go should have been plenty.

 

Also, if the reports are accurate, Epstein met with Grady before the game and tried to convince him that he needed to get Pedro out of there at 100-105 pitches no matter what.

[kenmeister]

My take on Kimbrel is that he needs work more than he needs rest. When he has too many days off his velocity is fine , but he loses command of both of his pitches , especially the breaking ball.

 

Very good insight.

[dannycater]

Yes, results oriented is true, and that's why I brought up this thread because I'm bucking the norm by NOT USING THE RESULT to critique, but using the idea of how should you approach a series-clincher if you have the house cards on your side. By the time Kimbrel recorded his "save" there were no cards left, and Kimbrel hit on an 18 v. a 9 showing and landed a 3. When we are given 2 high cards, I'd like to think we can use some odds to our advantage. So yes in this case, Sale pitches the start of the 9th and Kimbrel waits for his opp, or Sale sails through the 9th, the Sox clinch, we all pour champagne, and Cora is still a genius. Now again, I didn't say don't bring in Kimbrel. I said be aware that he may not always have his control. If he doesn't, you better think fast, real fast. I feel better if I see someone warming up, maybe 2, hell 3 at that point. He pushed all the right buttons, Cora, BUT we had to have a spectacular 2-way defensive play to record out 3. The result is great, but for a genius, Cora stopped short in that bottom of the 9th. He pulled a Grady Little that worked, and that's the truth.

[sk7326]

Yes, results oriented is true, and that's why I brought up this thread because I'm bucking the norm by NOT USING THE RESULT to critique, but using the idea of how should you approach a series-clincher if you have the house cards on your side. By the time Kimbrel recorded his "save" there were no cards left, and Kimbrel hit on an 18 v. a 9 showing and landed a 3. When we are given 2 high cards, I'd like to think we can use some odds to our advantage. So yes in this case, Sale pitches the start of the 9th and Kimbrel waits for his opp, or Sale sails through the 9th, the Sox clinch, we all pour champagne, and Cora is still a genius. Now again, I didn't say don't bring in Kimbrel. I said be aware that he may not always have his control. If he doesn't, you better think fast, real fast. I feel better if I see someone warming up, maybe 2, hell 3 at that point. He pushed all the right buttons, Cora, BUT we had to have a spectacular 2-way defensive play to record out 3. The result is great, but for a genius, Cora stopped short in that bottom of the 9th. He pulled a Grady Little that worked, and that's the truth.

 

At a certain point you gotta count on a good pitcher getting 3 outs. And the Red Sox had to manage like they had another game to play - because they did. The 18 v 9 scenario is not wholly correct because the Red Sox were always odds on here. I mean, the lowest the win prob got in the 9th was 66% (basically before Sanchez was up). I was nervous and Kimbrel could not locate his slider at all - but the Red Sox were more likely than not to bring that game home.

 

You are right - you can't really evaluate decisions entirely on results. I mean, I could drive a car with my legs (including steering) - and I might be able to navigate a trip home successfully. But it's still a crappy idea. But I think Cora going to Kimbrel was a perfectly fine move ex ante.

[dgalehouse]

I still think Cora did the right thing. We won the game, although it was a little nerve racking. The manager has to have confidence in his decisions. He was going to stay with Kimbrel, at least until the lead was lost. The fans can vacillate and change their minds often. People were calling for Kelly to be left off the roster. He was blasted here from pillar to post. They wanted Poyner on the roster , even though he was green and would not match up well against the Yankee lineup. We heard repeatedly that there was no one in the bullpen who could be trusted, other than Kimbrel. Now we hear that , in the biggest moment of the season to date , Kimbrel should have been yanked in favor of Joe Kelly. Bottom line : Cora stayed with Kimbrel and the Sox won. Who knows what would have happened if Kelly was in there ?

[cp176]

I still think Cora did the right thing. We won the game, although it was a little nerve racking. The manager has to have confidence in his decisions. He was going to stay with Kimbrel, at least until the lead was lost. The fans can vacillate and change their minds often. People were calling for Kelly to be left off the roster. He was blasted here from pillar to post. They wanted Poyner on the roster , even though he was green and would not match up well against the Yankee lineup. We heard repeatedly that there was no one in the bullpen who could be trusted, other than Kimbrel. Now we hear that , in the biggest moment of the season to date , Kimbrel should have been yanked in favor of Joe Kelly. Bottom line : Cora stayed with Kimbrel and the Sox won. Who knows what would have happened if Kelly was in there ?

 

For the record - I might have tried to get a little more out of Barnes and Brasier they both looked really strong. I'm not that hung up on certain pitchers for certain innings. Cora did what he has done all season - he went with one of the best closers in the game and I kind of wondered why no one was up earlier when it really looked like he was off his feed but I go with Cora on this one. It was Kimbrel's game to save or not save. I would not have felt any better watching Kelly or Workman coming through that bullpen door.

I agree though - we did kind of get lucky but sometimes that happens when you are the better team.

[Maxbialystock]

For the record - I might have tried to get a little more out of Barnes and Brasier they both looked really strong. I'm not that hung up on certain pitchers for certain innings. Cora did what he has done all season - he went with one of the best closers in the game and I kind of wondered why no one was up earlier when it really looked like he was off his feed but I go with Cora on this one. It was Kimbrel's game to save or not save. I would not have felt any better watching Kelly or Workman coming through that bullpen door.

I agree though - we did kind of get lucky but sometimes that happens when you are the better team.

 

We weren't nearly as lucky as the dadgum Yankees, who had a huge 9th inning rally based on 1 single, 2 walks, and a HBP. That's lucky. the sac fly was not lucky. But that final grounder by Torres was incredibly lucky--a typical Yankee rally, a hit from a weak grounder. But it was definitely playable because Nunez did not have to barehand it. His throw was therefore pretty balanced but nevertheless off. Even then it was close enough to catch in the air.

[dannycater]

Right, Max, and the whole rally was generated by wildness of Kimbrel...including the near HR on the sac fly...forced to throw a meatier pitch than had he just gotten ahead of him.

[Maxbialystock]

agree with this completely. but some posters will defend every single call Cora makes. and that is what is kind of silly. conversely, i dont think there is anyone that complains about every single call but some calls deserve second guessing. i think i had a grand total of 8 during the regular season that i posted on the Cora thread.

I have had a couple/few here in the ALDS. but we have advanced. and we have slayed the EE. so in Cora I Trust. but i will still query questionable decision making by him...whether they work or not. you tell me if that is fair or not.....

 

Dead right about the "second guessing." I didn't defend Cora Tuesday night on guess work, but on hard facts. Second guessing is fun, but in the end it's just guessing. And, yes, I am prone to defend managers--although I have excoriated Cora at least once (when he left Wright in and he gave up 10 runs back in June)--because they know a lot more about the game and the players than any of us.

[cp176]

We weren't nearly as lucky as the dadgum Yankees, who had a huge 9th inning rally based on 1 single, 2 walks, and a HBP. That's lucky. the sac fly was not lucky. But that final grounder by Torres was incredibly lucky--a typical Yankee rally, a hit from a weak grounder. But it was definitely playable because Nunez did not have to barehand it. His throw was therefore pretty balanced but nevertheless off. Even then it was close enough to catch in the air.

 

You know what, you are right. The Yankees were absolutely lucky just to be back in that game. It really is just a matter of how you choose to look at things isn't it. I like your way!!!

[Maxbialystock]

Right, Max, and the whole rally was generated by wildness of Kimbrel...including the near HR on the sac fly...forced to throw a meatier pitch than had he just gotten ahead of him.

 

I have said repeatedly that yes, Kimbrel was to a degree horrible in the 9th which led to those 2 runs. He also reduced the margin in game 1 to 1 run when he gave up the dinger (on a knuckle curve) to Judge. But then he struck the next 3 guys for the save.

 

Where you and I part company is that you would have had 2 or 3 guys warming up when Kimbrel took the mound--which would of course have told him you don't trust him and actually expect him to fail, which is a little weird for your ASG closer and completely different from the way Cora had managed the game up to that point. No one was warming up when Porcello came out to pitch the 5th, nor Barnes in the 6th, nor Brasier in the 7th, nor Sale in the 8th. But come the 9th, it's time to castrate your actual closer even though he goes out there with a 3 run lead. Would you seriously have done that?

 

You also never made it clear when exactly you would have pulled Kimbrel, nor who you would have sent in. In fact, it reads as though you might have sent all 2 or 3 relievers out to the mound together--you know strength in numbers.

 

As I have tried to point out, when to pull Kimbrel--if ever--was bound to be tricky because he is the closer and he had that 3 run lead. Would you have pulled him after the first two got on base? If so, you are forgetting Kimbrel struck the next guy out. So, based on what actually happened, we know pulling Kimbrel then would have been wrong. How about after the next guy walked to load the bases?

 

Now you are getting into a really high pressure situation. The Yankees fans were going nuts, absolutely nuts, and doing everything they could to bother Kimbrel. Since you never named who you would actually send in, I'm going to guess that you have no clue who you could be sure could get 2 outs with the bases loaded. And guess what? I don't have a clue either.

 

That's why I'm happy they pay Cora to make those decisions. And may I add that throughout the 9th inning he looked to me to be calm, confident, and, best of all, decisive because he--unlike you and me--was confident he already had the best man on the mound.

 

I am more than happy to admit that Kimbrel in fact hit the next Yankee, bringing home a run (score now 4-2) and leaving the bases loaded. Not good. But then he got the next two guys out to get the save and clinch the ALDS. Right guy in the right place at the right time despite the horrible start to the inning.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Maxbialystock

[mediasrojas]

Sale was only going to pitch one inning . He would still be ready to start a Game 5 , if that became necessary. There was no consideration of him pitching the ninth. Cora had faith in Kimbrel to close. Like it or don't like it , those are the facts.. Cora said so himself.

 

I agree with this post and add that Sale would have been lifted in the 8th for Kimbrel if one or two runners had reached. This is what Cora did with Porcello in game 1. Sale had a limited number of bullets to work with.

[dgalehouse]

You know what, you are right. The Yankees were absolutely lucky just to be back in that game. It really is just a matter of how you choose to look at things isn't it. I like your way!!!

 

There was an element of luck in Didi's ground ball single. It could have just as easily been a double play ball . Then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[mediasrojas]

I have said repeatedly that yes, Kimbrel was to a degree horrible in the 9th which led to those 2 runs. He also reduced the margin in game 1 to 1 run when he gave up the dinger (on a knuckle curve) to Judge. But then he struck the next 3 guys for the save.

 

Where you and I part company is that you would have had 2 or 3 guys warming up when Kimbrel took the mound--which would of course have told him you don't trust him and actually expect him to fail, which is a little weird for your ASG closer and completely different from the way Cora had managed the game up to that point. No one was warming up when Porcello came out to pitch the 5th, nor Barnes in the 6th, nor Brasier in the 7th, nor Sale in the 8th. But come the 9th, it's time to castrate your actual closer even though he goes out there with a 3 run lead. Would you seriously have done that?

 

You also never made it clear when exactly you would have pulled Kimbrel, nor who you would have sent in. In fact, it reads as though you might have sent all 2 or 3 relievers out to the mound together--you know strength in numbers.

 

As I have tried to point out, when to pull Kimbrel--if ever--was bound to be tricky because he is the closer and he had that 3 run lead. Would you have pulled him after the first two got on base? If so, you are forgetting Kimbrel struck the next guy out. So, based on what actually happened, we know pulling Kimbrel then would have been wrong. How about after the next guy walked to load the bases?

 

Now you are getting into a really high pressure situation. The Yankees fans were going nuts, absolutely nuts, and doing everything they could to bother Kimbrel. Since you never named who you would actually send in, I'm going to guess that you have no clue who you could be sure could get 2 outs with the bases loaded. And guess what? I don't have a clue either.

 

That's why I'm happy they pay Cora to make those decisions. And may I add that throughout the 9th inning he looked to me to be calm, confident, and, best of all, decisive because he--unlike you and me--was confident he already had the best man on the mound.

 

I am more than happy to admit that Kimbrel in fact hit the next Yankee, bringing home a run (score now 4-2) and leaving the bases loaded. Not good. But then he got the next two guys out to get the save and clinch the ALDS. Right guy in the right place at the right time despite the horrible start to the inning.

 

Good assessment. The part I am critical of Kimbrel is in walking Judge. There are no excuses for handing out free passes in that situation. Make Judge earn it.

[S5Dewey]

I have said repeatedly that yes, Kimbrel was to a degree horrible in the 9th which led to those 2 runs. He also reduced the margin in game 1 to 1 run when he gave up the dinger (on a knuckle curve) to Judge. But then he struck the next 3 guys for the save.

 

Where you and I part company is that you would have had 2 or 3 guys warming up when Kimbrel took the mound--which would of course have told him you don't trust him and actually expect him to fail, which is a little weird for your ASG closer and completely different from the way Cora had managed the game up to that point. No one was warming up when Porcello came out to pitch the 5th, nor Barnes in the 6th, nor Brasier in the 7th, nor Sale in the 8th. But come the 9th, it's time to castrate your actual closer even though he goes out there with a 3 run lead. Would you seriously have done that?

 

You also never made it clear when exactly you would have pulled Kimbrel, nor who you would have sent in. In fact, it reads as though you might have sent all 2 or 3 relievers out to the mound together--you know strength in numbers.

 

As I have tried to point out, when to pull Kimbrel--if ever--was bound to be tricky because he is the closer and he had that 3 run lead. Would you have pulled him after the first two got on base? If so, you are forgetting Kimbrel struck the next guy out. So, based on what actually happened, we know pulling Kimbrel then would have been wrong. How about after the next guy walked to load the bases?

 

Now you are getting into a really high pressure situation. The Yankees fans were going nuts, absolutely nuts, and doing everything they could to bother Kimbrel. Since you never named who you would actually send in, I'm going to guess that you have no clue who you could be sure could get 2 outs with the bases loaded. And guess what? I don't have a clue either.

 

That's why I'm happy they pay Cora to make those decisions. And may I add that throughout the 9th inning he looked to me to be calm, confident, and, best of all, decisive because he--unlike you and me--was confident he already had the best man on the mound.

 

I am more than happy to admit that Kimbrel in fact hit the next Yankee, bringing home a run (score now 4-2) and leaving the bases loaded. Not good. But then he got the next two guys out to get the save and clinch the ALDS. Right guy in the right place at the right time despite the horrible start to the inning.

 

It's nice to look back on the results with the benefit if retrospect (is that redundant? LOL) but no matter how you slice it Kimbrel came in with a three run lead and managed to cut it to one run using two BB's and a HBP.

Let's get real for just a moment. Kimbrel got lucky because those are things that a successful closer just can't be doing, especially against a good team.

 

I know Cora is going to trot Kimbrel out there again because he's the designated closer and he's been successful in the past but please don't ask me to have the same amount of confidence in him that I had two or three months ago.

[TylerD]

I have said repeatedly that yes, Kimbrel was to a degree horrible in the 9th which led to those 2 runs. He also reduced the margin in game 1 to 1 run when he gave up the dinger (on a knuckle curve) to Judge. But then he struck the next 3 guys for the save.

 

Where you and I part company is that you would have had 2 or 3 guys warming up when Kimbrel took the mound--which would of course have told him you don't trust him and actually expect him to fail, which is a little weird for your ASG closer and completely different from the way Cora had managed the game up to that point. No one was warming up when Porcello came out to pitch the 5th, nor Barnes in the 6th, nor Brasier in the 7th, nor Sale in the 8th. But come the 9th, it's time to castrate your actual closer even though he goes out there with a 3 run lead. Would you seriously have done that?

 

You also never made it clear when exactly you would have pulled Kimbrel, nor who you would have sent in. In fact, it reads as though you might have sent all 2 or 3 relievers out to the mound together--you know strength in numbers.

 

As I have tried to point out, when to pull Kimbrel--if ever--was bound to be tricky because he is the closer and he had that 3 run lead. Would you have pulled him after the first two got on base? If so, you are forgetting Kimbrel struck the next guy out. So, based on what actually happened, we know pulling Kimbrel then would have been wrong. How about after the next guy walked to load the bases?

 

Now you are getting into a really high pressure situation. The Yankees fans were going nuts, absolutely nuts, and doing everything they could to bother Kimbrel. Since you never named who you would actually send in, I'm going to guess that you have no clue who you could be sure could get 2 outs with the bases loaded. And guess what? I don't have a clue either.

 

That's why I'm happy they pay Cora to make those decisions. And may I add that throughout the 9th inning he looked to me to be calm, confident, and, best of all, decisive because he--unlike you and me--was confident he already had the best man on the mound.

 

I am more than happy to admit that Kimbrel in fact hit the next Yankee, bringing home a run (score now 4-2) and leaving the bases loaded. Not good. But then he got the next two guys out to get the save and clinch the ALDS. Right guy in the right place at the right time despite the horrible start to the inning.

 

Damn. Well said.

[mediasrojas]

Cora should get a lot of credit for how he managed that game, but I doubt there's a manager in the game that would have managed the situation in the 9th any differently.

[Maxbialystock]

It's nice to look back on the results with the benefit if retrospect (is that redundant? LOL) but no matter how you slice it Kimbrel came in with a three run lead and managed to cut it to one run using two BB's and a HBP.

Let's get real for just a moment. Kimbrel got lucky because those are things that a successful closer just can't be doing, especially against a good team.

 

I know Cora is going to trot Kimbrel out there again because he's the designated closer and he's been successful in the past but please don't ask me to have the same amount of confidence in him that I had two or three months ago.

 

Kimbrel got a lucky 9th inning save? My goodness, the guy is paid a king's ransom to do one thing and one thing only--to close. Heck, he normally won't even close unless it's the 9th inning. And he had a 3 run lead. And he already had 1 save in the ALDS. His ERA for the season is 2.74 (1.91 for his career), and he has 333 saves. And he was lucky?

 

I'm not saying he was perfect. Far from it. He started by walking Judge on 4 pitches although I do have a no doubt sniveling excuse for that. Throughout the inning he seemed to me to be consciously throwing to spots to avoid home runs, precisely what everyone but Price was trying to do and by and large succeeding. Did you know the Yankees set the MLB record for dingers this year? Do you know how many they hit in the two ALDS games played in their bandbox of a stadium? Zero.

 

Anyway, he walked a guy and gave up a single. Then he struck out Stanton, the guy the Yankees are paying a lot just to hit dingers. That was luck??? Then a walk--bad, granted--and an HBP, even worse. But then, still with the bases loaded, he got two more outs--one a sac fly and one a weak grounder to 3B. Where is the luck in that?

 

As I already said once on this thread, the lucky ones in the 9th inning were the Yankees. They got a great big rally--one that had every single Yankee fan standing up and shouting and clapping-- off of one little single, a grounder that got thru to RF. That's it--the only hit in the entire rally.

 

And they darn near kept the rally going with a weak grounder to 3B. They got the two walks and the HBP (off a knuckle curve) in part because Kimbrel didn't have good command and in part because he wanted to keep anything hit in the park--and in that he succeeded as the entire Sox did in the two games at Yankee Mini-Stadium.

[notin]

There was an element of luck in Didi's ground ball single. It could have just as easily been a double play ball . Then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

What if Grigorious had hit a home run? Would that have been better or worse for the Yankees?

[sk7326]

Cora should get a lot of credit for how he managed that game, but I doubt there's a manager in the game that would have managed the situation in the 9th any differently.

 

The manager's job is to get the right players in the right spots. After that it's on the players to deliver.

[notin]

The manager's job is to get the right players in the right spots. After that it's on the players to deliver.

 

That's why we need Robot Managers.

 

Also, Robot Closers...

[sk7326]

That's why we need Robot Managers.

 

Also, Robot Closers...

 

The only thing I could say is that maybe Cora should have had somebody else warming up. At the same time, I can understand why he was going to ride with Kimbrel - and there was still another game to plan for.

[notin]

The only thing I could say is that maybe Cora should have had somebody else warming up. At the same time, I can understand why he was going to ride with Kimbrel - and there was still another game to plan for.

 

As it was said before, no manager in baseball pulls Kimbrel from that inning, despite his struggles. He had some control issues, but it's not like the Yankees were hitting him that hard. They only hit 3 balls off him the entire inning and two of them were weak groundballs.

 

And really, if the only thing that matters are results, the Sox did win the game. All Kimbrel did with his control issues was make it more interesting than it should have been. But they still won, which was not something that was guaranteed if they brought in Kelly...

[sk7326]

As it was said before, no manager in baseball pulls Kimbrel from that inning, despite his struggles. He had some control issues, but it's not like the Yankees were hitting him that hard. They only hit 3 balls off him the entire inning and two of them were weak groundballs.

 

And really, if the only thing that matters are results, the Sox did win the game. All Kimbrel did with his control issues was make it more interesting than it should have been. But they still won, which was not something that was guaranteed if they brought in Kelly...

 

Oh I am totally okay with how the game was managed. You can do the right thing with a bad result - it happens all the time.

[notin]

Oh I am totally okay with how the game was managed. You can do the right thing with a bad result - it happens all the time.

 

Exactly. And that is why I don't like judging managerial and general managerial decisions based on results.

 

I thought the Hanley Ramierez contract was a good decision for multiple reasons. But it didn't work out. I also thought the Sandoval contract was stupid from the first minute, although my proposed alternatives on BDC were really a cheaper version of the same ineffectiveness...