The Blake Swihart Thread

[dustcover]

Mookie Betts is not the only great right fielder that ever existed. he's the best right fielder we've had in a very, very, long time, perhaps the best we've ever had, but if we moved him to 2B he'd instantly supplant Joe Cronin as the best 2B we ever had, especially if his defense is up to snuff (and it wasn't too bad back in 2014 IIRC)

 

The only reason Mookie isn't our starting 2B right now is Pedey. An alternative universe where we didn't sign Pedroia to that ill advised extension probably sees Betts breaking our all time 2B records wide open on both sides of the ball.

 

And need I add, that as valuable as a great RF is, a great 2B is at least that valuable, possibly more so.

 

Betts would definitely be a better 2B than Joe Cronin in as much as Joe never played 2B. Cronin was traded from the Senators to the Sox in 1935, as player-manager. He retired as a player in 1945, but remained manager of the Red Sox until 1947. During his playing days with the Sox he was a SS. And a HOF'er at that!

[notin]

Betts would definitely be a better 2B than Joe Cronin in as much as Joe never played 2B. Cronin was traded from the Senators to the Sox in 1935, as player-manager. He retired as a player in 1945, but remained manager of the Red Sox until 1947. During his playing days with the Sox he was a SS. And a HOF'er at that!

 

Maybe he meant Bobby Doerr...

[notin]

once again I disagree, unless you preface your argument by arguing that he's easier to replace perfectly.

 

It's actually much harder to find a guy with Swihart's potential, even if that potential is somewhat orphaned at the moment, than it is to find a RF who could come into right field and be a good right fielder.

If you're basing that argiment on the idea of someone coming in and being Mookie Betts, that is of course different but would also apply to whatever position Mookie happened to be playing

 

Did you just argue it would be harder to find a backup catcher than a right fielder? And try to remove all actual baseball ability from the argument?

 

The entire argument about risking/replacing Betts does hinge on him being Mookie Betts, a current MVP candidate. A Gold Glove winner. An elite all around player. Swihart is none of those things.

 

If the Sox were offered a player and the dealing team said “we’ll take either Betts or Swihart. Your call,” would you really consider how much “potential” Swihart had?

 

Right now Swihart is a backup catcher trying to seize an opportunity. In that respect, he’s basically Tyler Flowers or Devin Mesoraco or JR Murphy. Sure he might step up and succeed, but will he ever be an MVP candidate?

[Sox75]

And how valuable is our last remaining big league quality backup catcher? Not an area where I'd be taking big risks either, if I'm being honest.

 

Again, not necessarily arguing that Mookie to 2B is a sane move. I just take umbrage at the idea that it's somehow LESS sane than the carousel of madness we've been inflicting on Blake Swihart over the last 2 years.

 

If people are insane enough to risk their only remaining backup catcher playing him out of position in a game that probably doesn't have any particular bearing on the outcome of the season given position in the standings, anything is possible.

 

Did you just argue it would be harder to find a backup catcher than a right fielder? And try to remove all actual baseball ability from the argument?

 

The entire argument about risking/replacing Betts does hinge on him being Mookie Betts, a current MVP candidate. A Gold Glove winner. An elite all around player. Swihart is none of those things.

 

If the Sox were offered a player and the dealing team said “we’ll take either Betts or Swihart. Your call,” would you really consider how much “potential” Swihart had?

 

Right now Swihart is a backup catcher trying to seize an opportunity. In that respect, he’s basically Tyler Flowers or Devin Mesoraco or JR Murphy. Sure he might step up and succeed, but will he ever be an MVP candidate?

 

 

I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

You risk Swi, as they have multiple times, because he has almost no value.

 

You don't EVER risk Betts because he is a generational player.

 

You CAN'T replace a Betts on any team, but Swi is almost 100% expendable.

 

I like the kid, and wish him well, but up until about 3 weeks ago he had zero trade value. You play him wherever needed right now. The kid may actually finally be stepping up?

 

We'll see if he can use all these opportunities to jumpstart a career in the mlb?

[Dojji]

Did you just argue it would be harder to find a backup catcher than a right fielder?

 

Are YOU saying that it's actually easier to find a young catcher worth half a damn, than it is to find a right fielder?

 

Note, find a right fielder rather than Find Mookie Betts

 

There's a lot of half decent right fielders going around. But if you want a young catcher with any offensive upside at all, that actually takes some finding.

 

Go look around the league and tell me how many backup catchers are there because they're MLB caliber, rather than because they're the second least terrible catcher a team happens to have. The results might be a bit eye opening.

 

We got super lucky with Sandy Leon. Most teams would kill to find a guy off the waiver wire for a few dollars that's anywhere near that good as a longterm backup/stopgap starter. Most good backups are over the hill starters, most of the rest fall under that "second least terrible" category. Anything much better than that, and someone either starts him, or tries to acquire him to start.

 

Swihart is better than the overwhelming majority of second string catchers and is young enough to continue to improve. He would be the starter on at least 12 teams right now, even with the early season struggles factored in. Without them factored in, that number increases to somewhere between 15 and 18 teams, including ours.

 

It is not hard to fill the second catcher's role with a Corky Miller/Ken Huckaby/Kevin Cash space filler who exists to be a catcher that happen to use to create a hole in your lineup 1-2 times a week because no one can catch full time and you have no choice. Finding a really good #1b catcher, a la Doug Mirabelli, David Ross, etc. is nowhere near that easy. Swihart has some early season numbers holding him back, but what he's shown in the last 2 months is that kind of catcher.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Dojji

[Sox75]

Based on What?

 

Swi' S biggest accomplishment was a so so season in double A ball

[Sox75]

Tell us what a great minor league career Swi Had?

 

Tell us Swi's greatest MLB accomplishments?

 

Swi was pulled up years early because we had zero options at C a few years back.

 

We couldn't even give the guy away. Now, because he's doing well for 3 weeks, we're going to argue about the relative gamble of risking Swi vs. Mookie?

 

This is absolutely laughable on any level.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Just heard that ex-SOX 3rd baseman Travis Shaw has been moved to 2nd base because of Brewers' acquisition of Moose from KC.

[Dojji]

Just heard that ex-SOX 3rd baseman Travis Shaw has been moved to 2nd base because of Brewers' acquisition of Moose from KC.

 

That won't end particularly well. I don't think he's ever played the position professionally, and his range was average to mediocre for a 3B

[Maxbialystock]

Back to the original question, the title of this thread. I would have bet anything that starting Swihart at 3B would be a big mistake. Wrong. Credit to both Swihart and Cora--and probably the coaching staff.

[OH FOY]

Swihart had a hell of a season in 2014 in Portland. Both Offensively and Defensively at 22 years old, promoted to Triple AAA that year, Started half a season for Red Sox next year. Check it Out.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=swihar000bla

 

That injury set him back a couple of years.

Edited July 30, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Dojji]

Back to the original question, the title of this thread. I would have bet anything that starting Swihart at 3B would be a big mistake. Wrong. Credit to both Swihart and Cora--and probably the coaching staff.

It has the benefit of hindsight for having worked, and that makes it easy to appeal to history when the dangers of even trying this move is brought up.

 

That doesn't mean that it was not dangerous. And it doesn't mean that I'll be happy with this team continuing to jerk the guy around. Utility is great, but at some point you need to pick a role and own it.

[Sox75]

It has the benefit of hindsight for having worked, and that makes it easy to appeal to history when the dangers of even trying this move is brought up.

 

That doesn't mean that it was not dangerous. And it doesn't mean that I'll be happy with this team continuing to jerk the guy around. Utility is great, but at some point you need to pick a role and own it.

 

 

Now this I agree with. Have the Sox potentially butchered this kid's career, first throwing him out in LF back 2 years ago, getting him injured? Have they jerked him around, experimenting with positions other than C? Have they potentially damaged his MLB career as a C?

 

Yes. Yes. & Yes

[kenmeister]

Now this I agree with. Have the Sox potentially butchered this kid's career, first throwing him out in LF back 2 years ago, getting him injured? Have they jerked him around, experimenting with positions other than C? Have they potentially damaged his MLB career as a C?

 

Yes. Yes. & Yes

 

... though I think the most important thing for 2018 is to cement Swihart's ability to hit. Which is just starting to come along now. Identifying a potential starting role and what position it would be for can be assessed in the offseason.

[dustcover]

... though I think the most important thing for 2018 is to cement Swihart's ability to hit. Which is just starting to come along now. Identifying a potential starting role and what position it would be for can be assessed in the offseason.

 

Exactly, unless of course he's traded before season's end!

[Sox75]

Exactly, unless of course he's traded before season's end!

 

Of course, now that Vaz is hurt, the Sox can't afford to trade him. LOL :0 Now he's just too important to deal. 5 weeks ago we were all bitching that the guy needed to GO, but had no trade value. Now, the kid is too valuable (To this Sox team) to trade.

 

 

To Doj, as for the kid's future value? I don't think any of us know whether the kid will even make it in MLB. His minor league stats suggest a so so player, who might not ever make it to MLB. His ability to play as a decent MLB catcher is questionable. I think he will eventually become a serviceable back up catcher somewhere, but I don't see that happening long term with the Sox? Idk?

 

He's a very good athlete, but I'm not at all convinced he will ever become a 'very good' MLB player? In fact, I think it's highly doubtful.

 

If you look at his minor league stats, he had one so so - pretty decent 3/4 season at AA in 2014. He was called up WAY TOO early, and needed several more seasons to nail down the position. His hitting is questionable, but somehow guys got it in their heads that he is a VERY GOOD hitter. Not even close. He wasn't even GOOD in the minors.

 

Anyway.... I'm wishing the kid well. He's certainly stepping up right now when we need him the most.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Sox75

[Kimmi]

Back to the original question, the title of this thread. I would have bet anything that starting Swihart at 3B would be a big mistake. Wrong. Credit to both Swihart and Cora--and probably the coaching staff.

 

Swihart looked pretty good out there. That said, as long as Vazquez is on the DL, I think it's a mistake to trot Swihart out there to other positions. It's too risky health wise.

 

Once Vaz returns, having a 3rd catcher on the team who can also play other positions without being a liability will be a huge plus. That's what I thought we would be getting from Swihart at the start of the season, but for whatever reason, Cora just wouldn't give him the playing time.

[Dojji]

Playing time is not given, it's earned. Swihart wasn't deserving of any more playing time than he got early in the season.

 

That's one of the reasons that it's frustrating me that they're going back to jerking him around the moment he's finally starting to get his feet under him

[FredLynn]

Playing time is not given, it's earned. Swihart wasn't deserving of any more playing time than he got early in the season.

 

That's one of the reasons that it's frustrating me that they're going back to jerking him around the moment he's finally starting to get his feet under him

 

I look at it another way: Swihart wasn't given a fair chance to EARN playing time early in the season. Its hard to play that way...or at least play well. Look at his game logs: he would play a day or two then sit for 3-4 days or longer. You cannot get a rhythm like that. Now he is playing more regularly and his play is improving. I don't think he cares where he plays as long as he is given a chance to be in the lineup. Its still early; maybe he flops. But I am glad to see that finally he is being given the chance he always deserved.

[vegasbob]

Blake is building some value in a few ways ; 1. he may , in fact , become tradable this coming offseason to a team that doesn't have the luxury of 3 catchers at the MLB level, one of whom can play other positions. 2. There is no guarantee that Vazquez nor Leon will be the best options at catcher next year . Vaz needs to come back into a pennant race in the dog days of late August/September and actually do something beneficial. It is a stretch but Blake could perform well enough at secondary catcher and hitt at the .250 or better level over several weeks, plus he can run. 3. Maybe he becomes the Red Sox utility player of 2019 along with Holt, and Nunez becomes the odd man out, regardless of contract status.

 

For the team's sake in the race and the playoffs, I hope Blake makes all the decisions very difficult in trying to move him up and out.

[Dojji]

Worth mentioning for what it's worth

 

In the last week, Swihart has officially passed Sandy Leon on offense by a few OPS points.

 

Leon still has the overall edge because of his D, but Swihart is starting to build some momentum with his bat.

[mvp 78]

Worth mentioning for what it's worth

 

In the last week, Swihart has officially passed Sandy Leon on offense by a few OPS points.

 

Leon still has the overall edge because of his D, but Swihart is starting to build some momentum with his bat.

 

He better since he's a bat first C.

[kenmeister]

He better since he's a bat first C.

 

I have to say I'm really impressed with how well the pitching staff does under Leon. If they can keep it up under Swihart so much the better, but it seems like Vazquez going on the DL has helped the team.

[Dojji]

Vazquez has had a terrible year by his own standards. I'll be honest, if I had to cut one of Swihart of Vazquez going into next season, I'd think long and hard about cutting Vazquez. A Swihart-Leon tandem is interesting, and Vazquez has done little to help his own reputation.

[mvp 78]

Vazquez has had a terrible year by his own standards. I'll be honest, if I had to cut one of Swihart of Vazquez going into next season, I'd think long and hard about cutting Vazquez. A Swihart-Leon tandem is interesting, and Vazquez has done little to help his own reputation.

 

Tough to cut Vazquez since you'd have to pay out his contract for 3 more years.

[Sox75]

Vazquez has had a terrible year by his own standards. I'll be honest, if I had to cut one of Swihart of Vazquez going into next season, I'd think long and hard about cutting Vazquez. A Swihart-Leon tandem is interesting, and Vazquez has done little to help his own reputation.

 

Can we wait for Swi to play a full season in the MLB before pronouncing him "officially better" than anybody.

 

How 'bout we see if he can come close to this?

 

99 324 43 94 18 2 5 32 17 64 7 2 .290 .330 .404 .735

 

I wonder who this guy is? I'd like a catcher who can hit like this!!! In the MLB. . .

 

What were Swi's hitting stats like in the minors?

[Maxbialystock]

Swihart stock is trading high these days. He can hit, catch, play 1b/3b and the outfield (not CF). I'd keep him, but realize this also makes him a lot more tradeable.

[bosoxmal]

And I don't meanf or number TWO catcher. His with-hittin capability may give hime the edge. He is cartainly a different catcher than he was two years ago!

[Dojji]

He's on a nice little comeback. Don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but he's showing us something right now. Glad we still have him.

[oldtimer]

He's on a nice little comeback. Don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but he's showing us something right now. Glad we still have him.

 

Agreed. Right now he is a better hitter than either Leon or Vaz and his defense looked fine. A decision will be forced going forward.