Who Should the Red Sox Trade For?

[OH FOY]

Saw Koufax pitch at the Polo Grounds with my father against the lowly Mets. 1-hitter. My Pop paid $20 for tickets back then, that how close we were. You can hear his fastball.

He would probably K 400 in a year with todays free swingers.

[cp176]

For a 1 game postseason start I would roll my dice with schilling....

 

You ever see Koufax or Gibson? Schilling was a gamer too for sure but those other two - oh baby. Koufax just won - Gibson just won too but I don't think anybody ever got too comfortable with him on the mound. My kind of conversation. Hell no one has even mentioned Juan Marichal yet.

[cp176]

Saw Koufax pitch at the Polo Grounds with my father against the lowly Mets. 1-hitter. My Pop paid $20 for tickets back then, that how close we were. You can hear his fastball.

 

 

I'll bet that is a memory you will never forget. You think Koufax would be successful today? lol

[Maxbialystock]

Best Postseason Pitchers:

 

Mathewson - leads ERA over 100 innings 0.97, most shutouts 4, most complete games 10 (1912-1913: 5 games 1 Win 3 Losses only 5 Earned Runs)

Pettitte - most innings 276.2, most wins 19 (benefits from all those Yankees teams and had an ERA of 3.81)

Smoltz - 2.67 ERA over 209 innings, 15 wins, 4 saves, most k's 199, 8.6 k/9 1.144 WHIP

Schilling - 2.23 ERA over 133 innings, 2 shutouts (tied for 6th), 8.1 k/9, 0.986 WHIP

Gibson - 1.89 ERA over 81 innings, 8 CG out of 9 starts, 10.2 k/9, 0.889 WHIP

Lester - 2.55 ERA over 148 innings, 7.5 k/9, 1.027 WHIP

Ford - 2.71 ERA over 146 innings, 3 shutouts (tied for 2nd) 5.8 k/9, 1.137 WHIP

Becket - 3.07 ERA over 93.2 innings, 3 shutouts (tied for 2nd) 9.5 k/9, 0.940 WHIP

Valenzuela - 1.98 ERA over 63.2 innings, 6.2 k/9, 1.225 WHIP

Hershiser - 2.59 ERA over 132 innings, 2 shutouts (tied for 6th) 6.6 k/9, 1.106 WHIP

Bumgarner - 2.11 ERA over 102.1 innings, 3 shutouts (tied for 2nd), 7.7 k/9, 0.899 WHIP

Palmer - 2.61 ERA over 124.1 innings, 4.5 k/9, 1.214 WHIP

McNally - 2.49 ERA over 90.1 innings, 6.5 k/9, 1.096 WHIP

Koufax - 0.95 ERA over 57 innings, 9.6 k/9, 0.825 WHIP

Ruffing - 2.63 ERA over 85.2 innings, 6.4 k/9, 1.179 WHIP

Hoyt - 1.83 ERA over 83.2 innings, 5.3 k/9, 1.231 WHIP

Plank - 1.32 ERA over 54.2 innings, 5.3 k/9, 0.878 WHIP

 

Out of that, I'd say my top 5 is Mathewson, Koufax, Gibson, Schilling and Bumgarner

 

Mathewson could be the greatest pitcher of all time, but I don't know how he'd translate after the dead ball era. Gibson and Koufax had fewer starts than Schilling, but those performances were otherworldly even when compared to other pitchers of their era. Bumgarner and Schilling are basically neck and neck, but I'd give Shilling the bump for now due to where Bumgarner pitches. My personal preference is for Koufax over Gibson even though Gibson went CG almost every time out. Having an ERA under 1 is just nasty.

 

Koufax

Gibson

Schilling

Bumgarner

Mathewson

 

I'm with splendidsplitter: well done and thanks.

 

Koufax, whom I did see pitch once in Philly, deserves the top spot. Gibson was great, no question, but a little mean for my taste--he loved brushback pitches even more when they hit someone. I hasten to add that was actually not that abnormal in his era. He was incredibly competitive.

 

My memory of Koufax is that he was not quite so competitive--at least in terms of brushback pitches--but in his prime had great stuff, especially his fastball and curve. He was elected to the Hall of Fame at age 36, the youngest ever because arthritis made him quit at age 30/31. In his three Cy Young (unanimously selected) years of 1963, 1965, and 1966, he started 40, 41, and 41 games and pitched 20, 27, and 27 complete games. 1966 was also his final year.

 

Until you put up his postseason stats (all World Series of course), I did not know he was so great in the postseason.

[OH FOY]

Always liked this article.

read:https://www.wired.com/2011/03/why-sandy-koufax-and-the-curveball-rule/

[Maxbialystock]

You ever see Koufax or Gibson? Schilling was a gamer too for sure but those other two - oh baby. Koufax just won - Gibson just won too but I don't think anybody ever got too comfortable with him on the mound. My kind of conversation. Hell no one has even mentioned Juan Marichal yet.

 

Agree completely. I favor Koufax, but both were way better than Curt.

[cp176]

I'm with splendidsplitter: well done and thanks.

 

Koufax, whom I did see pitch once in Philly, deserves the top spot. Gibson was great, no question, but a little mean for my taste--he loved brushback pitches even more when they hit someone. I hasten to add that was actually not that abnormal in his era. He was incredibly competitive.

 

My memory of Koufax is that he was not quite so competitive--at least in terms of brushback pitches--but in his prime had great stuff, especially his fastball and curve. He was elected to the Hall of Fame at age 36, the youngest ever because arthritis made him quit at age 30/31. In his three Cy Young (unanimously selected) years of 1963, 1965, and 1966, he started 40, 41, and 41 games and pitched 20, 27, and 27 complete games. 1966 was also his final year.

 

Until you put up his postseason stats (all World Series of course), I did not know he was so great in the postseason.

 

I agree with you for sure. I would put Gibson and Koufax side by each I think but you are right on. Koufax pitched like a well written poem. Gibson had the same type of stuff but oh man would he go after you.

[Spudboy]

Saw Koufax pitch at the Polo Grounds with my father against the lowly Mets. 1-hitter. My Pop paid $20 for tickets back then, that how close we were. You can hear his fastball.

He would probably K 400 in a year with todays free swingers.

 

You could "hear" his fastball?

 

That is f***ing cool.

[cp176]

Always liked this article.

read:https://www.wired.com/2011/03/why-sandy-koufax-and-the-curveball-rule/

 

 

What a great read!!! thanks - How about the great Yogi Berra's classic as usual comment - he could understand Koufax winning the 25 but just didn't get how he could ever have lost the 5. lol lol lol

[Spudboy]

You ever see Koufax or Gibson? Schilling was a gamer too for sure but those other two - oh baby. Koufax just won - Gibson just won too but I don't think anybody ever got too comfortable with him on the mound. My kind of conversation. Hell no one has even mentioned Juan Marichal yet.

 

Marichal was next on my list but for some reason I did not type it. Probably because I was too lazy to figure out how to spell it.

 

Loved that high leg kick. Did not get to see him play often as he was in SF. But he was special.

[OH FOY]

Koufax in his last year, last game beat the Twins, that won the WS only on Fastballs, couldn't throw the curve anymore, his elbow was shot. You go up to the plate every batter without guessing what pitch is coming and lose. Amazing. That was a good fastball hitting Twin Team too.

[cp176]

Marichal was next on my list but for some reason I did not type it. Probably because I was too lazy to figure out how to spell it.

 

Loved that high leg kick. Did not get to see him play often as he was in SF. But he was special.

 

Good man! You also mentioned Denny McClain - Wasn't that the 68 season? An incredible year for a pitcher to have. Lolitch was good but people forget about him because of McClain.

[Maxbialystock]

Always liked this article.

read:https://www.wired.com/2011/03/why-sandy-koufax-and-the-curveball-rule/

 

Thanks. Great, great article that does indeed capture the greatness of Sandy Koufax exactly as I remember him. I like that one line from Yogi Berra, who only faced him in the World Series of course: after seeing Koufax pitch, he understood why he won 25 games, but he couldn't understand how he lost 5 games. But the description of what constitutes a great curve is the best. Or maybe it's how in his mid-forties pitching batting practice for the Dodgers during the post season he was asked to throw his famous curve and no one on that postseason Dodgers team could hit it. Lasorda finally had to go out and ask him to knock it off because he didn't want his hitters losing confidence.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Maxbialystock

[OH FOY]

Thanks CPL, and Spud, and Max, loved Pedro, but Koufax will always be "Left Arm of God" to me.

[Maxbialystock]

Thanks CPL, and Spud, and Max, loved Pedro, but Koufax will always be "Left Arm of God" to me.

 

I saw that movie too: Left Hand of God, starring Bogart and Gene Tierney, about a phony priest who does good in a Chinese village. Lee J Cobb plays the bad guy Chinese War Lord who ain't so bad at the end. It was based on a novel by William Jarrett, same guy who wrote the novel Lilies of the Field that also became a movie (Sidney Poitier vs. a bunch of nuns).

 

Left Arm of God also works because I think Koufax was a pretty devout Jew.

[notin]

I saw that movie too: Left Hand of God, starring Bogart and Gene Tierney, about a phony priest who does good in a Chinese village. Lee J Cobb plays the bad guy Chinese War Lord who ain't so bad at the end. It was based on a novel by William Jarrett, same guy who wrote the novel Lilies of the Field that also became a movie (Sidney Poitier vs. a bunch of nuns).

 

Left Arm of God also works because I think Koufax was a pretty devout Jew.

 

And Lee J Cobb was an underappreciated movie villain...

[Maxbialystock]

All this talk about ancient pitchers sure seems off the topic--who should the Sox trade for--but several have already made the case that, while a lefty reliever or something would certainly help, DD can be a little cautious, not only because the Sox right now have the best record and best hitting in MLB, but also because the Sox don't have a lot of money to spend and stay below the luxury tax.

 

So, once again, thanks to MVP 78 for starting this and OH FOY! for educating us on the Left Arm of God, Sandy Koufax, who would make every starting pitcher in today look like a candy ass. And Sandy wasn't even that tough--Gibson was the tough one.

 

Oh, and I basically missed the Pedro Martinez era with the Sox because I didn't get Sox on satellite until about 2004. I do think that in his prime he was very good, even great. And different.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Maxbialystock

[S5Dewey]

I never saw Koufax pitch but I did play a game of pickup basketball against him.

 

After he retired he moved to Maine for a short time & lived about 10 miles from my home - but way out in the boonies!. The guys I played golf with also played pickup basketball on Sunday mornings and I was invited to come along one Sunday. (Amazing, because I may be the worst basketball player ever to walk onto a court. I'm completely landlocked...but that's another story). Unbeknown to me Koufax was also one of the Sunday Morning basketball guys.

 

I only met him that once but I'd say he's a great guy but not a great basketball player. And his left arm was a LOT bigger than his right.

 

-one of my few claims to fame.

 

And BTW, he was only here for a few years. His wife hated being that far out in the country so they left.

[Bellhorn04]

Saw Koufax pitch at the Polo Grounds with my father against the lowly Mets. 1-hitter. My Pop paid $20 for tickets back then, that how close we were. You can hear his fastball.

He would probably K 400 in a year with todays free swingers.

 

Koufax was one of my early heroes. The 1965 World Series was the first one I really watched. Every game of that series was won by the home team until Game 7, when Koufax pitched a 3-hit shutout on 2 days rest, after a 4-hit shutout in Game 5.

 

IIRC Koufax didn't start Game 1 of that Series because it fell on Yom Kippur.

[notin]

So it's settled. The Sox need to trade for Sandy Koufax.

 

Hey, can his arm be in worse shape than any of the other relievers DD has acquired?

[a700hitter]

I never saw Koufax pitch but I did play a game of pickup basketball against him.

 

After he retired he moved to Maine for a short time & lived about 10 miles from my home - but way out in the boonies!. The guys I played golf with also played pickup basketball on Sunday mornings and I was invited to come along one Sunday. (Amazing, because I may be the worst basketball player ever to walk onto a court. I'm completely landlocked...but that's another story). Unbeknown to me Koufax was also one of the Sunday Morning basketball guys.

 

I only met him that once but I'd say he's a great guy but not a great basketball player. And his left arm was a LOT bigger than his right.

 

-one of my few claims to fame.

 

And BTW, he was only here for a few years. His wife hated being that far out in the country so they left.

Great story. Regarding the size of his left arm, I read that one doctor who examined him said that he had the most well developed deltoid muscle that he had ever examined.

[a700hitter]

I have been following James Shields’ season. He is with a pathetic team that is horrible defensively and they play in a bandbox. He has put up a high number of quality starts, but the really notable thing about his season thus far is that he has avoided what has been his downfall throughout his career — the Home Run ball. I would think that he should be an inexpensive acquisition. If Pom and Wright continue to falter Shields would be a good alternative.

[a700hitter]

Koufax was one of my early heroes. The 1965 World Series was the first one I really watched. Every game of that series was won by the home team until Game 7, when Koufax pitched a 3-hit shutout on 2 days rest, after a 4-hit shutout in Game 5.

 

IIRC Koufax didn't start Game 1 of that Series because it fell on Yom Kippur.

You are very old. LOL!

[harmony]

I never saw Koufax pitch but I did play a game of pickup basketball against him.

 

After he retired he moved to Maine for a short time & lived about 10 miles from my home - but way out in the boonies!. The guys I played golf with also played pickup basketball on Sunday mornings and I was invited to come along one Sunday. (Amazing, because I may be the worst basketball player ever to walk onto a court. I'm completely landlocked...but that's another story). Unbeknown to me Koufax was also one of the Sunday Morning basketball guys.

 

I only met him that once but I'd say he's a great guy but not a great basketball player. And his left arm was a LOT bigger than his right.

 

-one of my few claims to fame.

 

And BTW, he was only here for a few years. His wife hated being that far out in the country so they left.

Very cool.

[harmony]

Koufax was one of my early heroes. The 1965 World Series was the first one I really watched. Every game of that series was won by the home team until Game 7, when Koufax pitched a 3-hit shutout on 2 days rest, after a 4-hit shutout in Game 5.

 

IIRC Koufax didn't start Game 1 of that Series because it fell on Yom Kippur.

The 1963 World Series between the Dodgers and Yankees was the first I watched but the 1965 World Series was the most memorable because I was a Minnesota Twins fan who turned 10 years old on the travel day between Game 2 and Game 3 of the series. The Twins weren't expected to be good that year but advanced to Game 7 of the series before succumbing to the masterful Sandy Koufax for the second time in three starts.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Speaking of great pitchers, I remember reading a conversation Mantle had with a sports reporter back in the '60's.. The reporter asked Mantle who was the toughest pitcher for him to face. Without hesitation Mantle answered Dick Radatz. Said Mantle "I knew he was going to throw me a fastball every time and I still couldn't hit it."

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

All this talk about ancient pitchers sure seems off the topic--who should the Sox trade for--but several have already made the case that, while a lefty reliever or something would certainly help, DD can be a little cautious, not only because the Sox right now have the best record and best hitting in MLB, but also because the Sox don't have a lot of money to spend and stay below the luxury tax.

 

So, once again, thanks to MVP 78 for starting this and OH FOY! for educating us on the Left Arm of God, Sandy Koufax, who would make every starting pitcher in today look like a candy ass. And Sandy wasn't even that tough--Gibson was the tough one.

 

Oh, and I basically missed the Pedro Martinez era with the Sox because I didn't get Sox on satellite until about 2004. I do think that in his prime he was very good, even great. And different.

 

Imho, Pedro's 2000 AL season may be the greatest of any modern era pitcher. And it occurred in the midst of the steroid period in baseball. His ERA of 1.74 was @2.00 lower than the 2nd place guy Roger Clemens (3.70). The largest difference in the history of baseball.

Edited July 14, 2018 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[Slasher9]

I never saw Koufax pitch but I did play a game of pickup basketball against him.

 

After he retired he moved to Maine for a short time & lived about 10 miles from my home - but way out in the boonies!. The guys I played golf with also played pickup basketball on Sunday mornings and I was invited to come along one Sunday. (Amazing, because I may be the worst basketball player ever to walk onto a court. I'm completely landlocked...but that's another story). Unbeknown to me Koufax was also one of the Sunday Morning basketball guys.

 

I only met him that once but I'd say he's a great guy but not a great basketball player. And his left arm was a LOT bigger than his right.

 

-one of my few claims to fame.

 

And BTW, he was only here for a few years. His wife hated being that far out in the country so they left.

Awesome experience!

[OH FOY]

Another cool article.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/sandy-koufax/503036/

[oldtimer]

I thought this string was about who we should trade for. In that case, with Wright not doing as well as hoped and now E Rod out with a knee sprain on his surgically repaired knee, we might change our focus to look for a starter and probably a reliever as well. Priorities change and our recent injury bug has probably changed who we go after.