Stanton or Votto

[notin]

I suspect the Red Sox are prepared to do whatever it takes to sign Martinez.

 

Entirely possible.

 

THe biggest issue with him is he doesn't play the position they need. Certainly converting him to be a 1B isn't a big deal, and he could have a 1B/DH timeshare with Hanley (whose option is vesting, barring injury. People need to stop these "Duda/Alonso" stopgap suggestions that would only lead to an eventual grievance from the union and make Boston a less desirable stop for other free agents).

 

But it is Martinez choice. Maybe he likes Arizona? Maybe he likes the OF? Maybe he likes both? Apparently he became a legend there quickly and the DBacks were as good as the Sox last season...

[moonslav59]

My offseason expectations are somewhat minimal.

 

I do hope Dombrowski leaves the outfield alone. Fon't deal Bradley

 

I hope if anyone is dealt for a legit power hitting 1B, it is Bogaerts. Not because I think he is an underachiever, but because he has less control left than Bradley, and as recently as July, had more trade value per fangraphs than all but 44 players in MLB. I do realize there is actually a chance Bogaerts has an unprecedented breakout year and solves a big chunk of the power void himself, but I prefer not banking on that.

 

Obviously, that would have a fallout of getting a new SS. I'd saciifice the offense here for defense.

 

THe real issue the Sox have this off-season is trad bait. Especially if there are any limits on the budget.

 

JD Martinez seems like the easy answer. But there are two problems 1) it's his choice. He might prefer a number of other options. And 2) he might be looking at 6 years $130mill or so, which will take him to age 37. If you don''t like 34yo Hanley, what do you realistically expect from Martinez as he ages?

 

I agree. I think 5 years might get him, but even that is a year or two too long. However, I'd still do it.

 

Trading for Stanton would open too many other holes, although, if we miss out on JD or Moustakas, I'd go hard after Stanton (with Bogey, if needed).

 

[OH FOY]

Sean McAdams of BSJ, was asked if the Sox should sign Hosmer or Moustakas, and he said no. He said he doesn't think they would be good fits for the Sox. Various reasons, mostly money, for what they could provide for Boston. Spending money this year could hurt down the road, when you don't know anything about Devers, for a full season.

I expect Cora to help out Devers even more as Manager.

Edited October 28, 2017 by OH FOY!

[moonslav59]

People need to stop these "Duda/Alonso" stopgap suggestions that would only lead to an eventual grievance from the union and make Boston a less desirable stop for other free agents).

 

All HRam has to do is play well in 2018,an d he'll get his 497 PAs, even with Duda and JD on the 25 man roster.

 

He may file a grievance, if he sucks next year and misses out on 497, but he won't win. I'm not buying the idea that serious damage will be done to the Sox image, in terms of future free agent signings. If HRam sucks in 2017, it will be basically 3 out of 4 years falling short or way short of expectations. A team should be able to make plans to mitigate serious problems on their teams.

 

He is having surgery, so signing someone good as insurance should not be an affront to HRam. Like I said, if HRam stays healthy and plays well, he can and should still get over 500 PAs next year.

 

JD Martinez plays the OF whenever any of them needs a rest or gets hurt. That should be at least 100 PAs in the field. If JBJ keeps struggling, he may get more "rest" than is needed, so that number could be closer to 150 that 100 PAs with zero OF injuries. JD has only played more than 123 games once in his career. He's only gotten over 517 PAs once. That being said, let's assume he gets 650 like he did this year. That's 150 in the OF and 500 at DH. That leaves about 200 PAs at DH and 700 at 1B. That's 900 PAs total for Duda and HRam to split, assuming absolutely no injuries at LF, CF, RF, 1B and DH (highly unlikely). If HRam can't play well enough to get 500 out of those 900 PAs, then he has no beef.

 

If he plays well, and we still keep him from getting 497, then he has a beef. I doubt we bench him, if he's doing better than Duda and JBJ (or even Beni vs LHPs).

 

[moonslav59]

Sean McAdams of BSJ, was asked if the Sox should sign Hosmer or Moustakas, and he said no. He said he doesn't think they would be good fits for the Sox. Various reasons, mostly money, for what they could provide for Boston.

 

I've been against Hosmer all along, and my support of the idea of signing Moose and moving Devers to 1B has been losing my confidence the more closely I look at Moustakas. He's not a great fielder. He has a low OBP. His massive power could have been an outlier.

 

To me, it's JD or Stanton, with Upton and/or Santana (or Upton and Duda) being secondary choices.

 

1. JD Martinez

2. Stanton

3. Upton and Santana

4. Upton & Duda

5. Upton & a 1 year fix at 1B

6. Santana & a decent 4th OF'er/DH

7. Moustakas & a decent 4th OF'er/DH

8. ?????

 

[notin]

People need to stop these "Duda/Alonso" stopgap suggestions that would only lead to an eventual grievance from the union and make Boston a less desirable stop for other free agents).

 

All HRam has to do is play well in 2018,an d he'll get his 497 PAs, even with Duda and JD on the 25 man roster.

 

He may file a grievance, if he sucks next year and misses out on 497, but he won't win. I'm not buying the idea that serious damage will be done to the Sox image, in terms of future free agent signings. If HRam sucks in 2017, it will be basically 3 out of 4 years falling short or way short of expectations. A team should be able to make plans to mitigate serious problems on their teams.

 

He is having surgery, so signing someone good as insurance should not be an affront to HRam. Like I said, if HRam stays healthy and plays well, he can and should still get over 500 PAs next year.

 

JD Martinez plays the OF whenever any of them needs a rest or gets hurt. That should be at least 100 PAs in the field. If JBJ keeps struggling, he may get more "rest" than is needed, so that number could be closer to 150 that 100 PAs with zero OF injuries. JD has only played more than 123 games once in his career. He's only gotten over 517 PAs once. That being said, let's assume he gets 650 like he did this year. That's 150 in the OF and 500 at DH. That leaves about 200 PAs at DH and 700 at 1B. That's 900 PAs total for Duda and HRam to split, assuming absolutely no injuries at LF, CF, RF, 1B and DH (highly unlikely). If HRam can't play well enough to get 500 out of those 900 PAs, then he has no beef.

 

If he plays well, and we still keep him from getting 497, then he has a beef. I doubt we bench him, if he's doing better than Duda and JBJ (or even Beni vs LHPs).

 

 

I disagree.

 

To some free agents, particularly ones with other options, that the Sox intentionally attempted to prevent a lucrative option from vesting could easily tip the scales in another direction. Or make it more difficult to include any vesting option in the future. ..

[Spudboy]

Hmm.

 

So what happens if the Sox fail or decide not to sign Stanton or Martinez?

 

I'd say there is a strong possibility of that happening.

 

How is the power outage addressed?

 

If the Sox dick around playing the market on those two and Moreland signs elsewhere then we are stuck with some undesirable choices that we will no doubt over-pay for.

 

Or just "stand pat" and go get a reliever or two and a 3-4 starter.

 

I wonder what tricks DD has up his sleeve.

[moonslav59]

Hmm.

 

So what happens if the Sox fail or decide not to sign Stanton or Martinez?

 

I'd say there is a strong possibility of that happening.

 

How is the power outage addressed?

 

If the Sox dick around playing the market on those two and Moreland signs elsewhere then we are stuck with some undesirable choices that we will no doubt over-pay for.

 

Or just "stand pat" and go get a reliever or two and a 3-4 starter.

 

I wonder what tricks DD has up his sleeve.

 

Please! Let Moreland go elsewhere. We placed 24th in 1B WAR last year and need more offense and power than Moreland gives.

 

If we don't sign JD or trade for Stanton, there are still a few better options than Moreland. There are DH types like Upton and Bruce, and there's Moose at 1B with Devers moving to 1B, but at 1B, I'd take any of these guys over Moreland:

 

Santana

Duda

Morrison

maybe Alonso

then there's Hosmer who will get too many years at too high a dollar amount.

 

.

[moonslav59]

I disagree.

 

To some free agents, particularly ones with other options, that the Sox intentionally attempted to prevent a lucrative option from vesting could easily tip the scales in another direction. Or make it more difficult to include any vesting option in the future. ..

 

1) Denying HRam 497 PAs, if he is sucking next year is not unethical.

2) I'm not for denying him the 497, if he's playing well.

3) It only takes about 50 less PAs than this year for him to not vest.

4) I'm fine with no FA ever getting another vesting option with the Sox. They are pretty rare anyways.

5) I seriously doubt denying HRam 497 PAs by signing Duda, assuming Duda does well and HRam sucks again will make any future player think twice about accepting an equal or the highest offer by the Red Sox.

[Spudboy]

Please! Let Moreland go elsewhere. We placed 24th in 1B WAR last year and need more offense and power than Moreland gives.

 

If we don't sign JD or trade for Stanton, there are still a few better options than Moreland. There are DH types like Upton and Bruce, and there's Moose at 1B with Devers moving to 1B, but at 1B, I'd take any of these guys over Moreland:

 

Santana

Duda

Morrison

maybe Alonso

then there's Hosmer who will get too many years at too high a dollar amount.

 

.

 

None of those guys comes close to solving the power outage.

 

My question remains unanswered.

[Bellhorn04]

The answer is this: Dombrowski does not dick around.

[a700hitter]

Duda sucks and he has chronic physical conditions. Last spring he needed shots in both hips and I forgot what else is wrong, but I wouldn't pursue him at all. Add to that that he is a notoriously streaky hitter who will do 2 months of production in a 7 day period and nothing for the other 7 weeks.

[a700hitter]

The answer is this: Dombrowski does not dick around.

This is true. I expect that we will have new toys by this time next month.

[moonslav59]

None of those guys comes close to solving the power outage.

 

My question remains unanswered.

 

No, but all are better than Moreland on offense.

 

I'd be pissed, if one of these guys was all we got.

 

I'd me more pissed if all we do is bring back Moreland and someone similar to Nunez.

[moonslav59]

This is true. I expect that we will have new toys by this time next month.

 

The only question is how shiny the new toys will be.

[moonslav59]

Back to Stanton: two questions from me, do any of these offers get us Stanton, and if so, which is the best one from our perspective?

 

1) JBJ (via 3rd team for prospects sent to MIA)+ Chavis and Flores

 

2) Bogey (via 3rd team for prospects sent to MIA) + Chavis and Groome or Mata

 

3) JBJ & Bogey (both via 3rd teams for prospects flipped to MIA)

 

4) 2 from Groome, Mata and Houck, plus Flores, plus Chavis or Chatham/Dalbec + Ockimey/Travis, plus 1 or 2 from Beeks, Shawaryn and Scherff (Maybe include Brannen).

[harmony]

Back to Stanton: two questions from me, do any of these offers get us Stanton, and if so, which is the best one from our perspective?

 

1) JBJ (via 3rd team for prospects sent to MIA)+ Chavis and Flores

 

2) Bogey (via 3rd team for prospects sent to MIA) + Chavis and Groome or Mata

 

3) JBJ & Bogey (both via 3rd teams for prospects flipped to MIA)

 

4) 2 from Groome, Mata and Houck, plus Flores, plus Chavis or Chatham/Dalbec + Ockimey/Travis, plus 1 or 2 from Beeks, Shawaryn and Scherff (Maybe include Brannen).

I doubt the Marlins will trade Giancarlo Stanton for the Red Sox spare parts.

 

I question the current trade value of 19-year-old Jason Groome because he is along way from being MLB-ready.

 

Compare the Single A Greenville lines of Groome and Henry Owens, another 6-foot-6, 220-pound lefthander who, like Groome, was ranked among baseball's Top 50 prospects:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=groome000jas

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=owens-002hen

 

Owens, who skipped Low A Lowell, pitched at Greenville when he was a year older than Groome was at that level.

Edited October 29, 2017 by harmony

[Bellhorn04]

No, but all are better than Moreland on offense.

 

I'd be pissed, if one of these guys was all we got.

 

I'd me more pissed if all we do is bring back Moreland and someone similar to Nunez.

 

Forget Moreland. I read that he is contemplating surgery himself.

[moonslav59]

I doubt the Marlines will trade Giancarlo Stanton for the Red Sox spare parts.

 

I question the current trade value of 19-year-old Jason Groome because he is along way from being MLB-ready.

 

Compare the Single A Greenville lines of Groome and Henry Owens, another 6-foot-6, 220-pound lefthander who, like Groome, was ranked among baseball's Top 50 prospects:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=groome000jas

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=owens-002hen

 

Owens, who skipped Low A Lowell, pitched at Greenville when he was a year older than Groome was at that level.

 

I agree that number 4 might not be enough, but I have a feeling the best offer made for Stanton is not going to be as good as many feel it needs to be.

 

A lot will depend on whether Jeter takes a "long look" and likes players like Groome, Mata and Flores, or if he wants more close-to-ML-ready prospects.

[moonslav59]

Forget Moreland. I read that he is contemplating surgery himself.

 

Even with no surgery, I'd pass.

 

Makes you wonder how many Sox players were playing injured last year.

 

Price

HRam

Pedey

Scott

Smith

Workman

ERod

Bogey?

Betts?

Moreland

 

Plus, these guys missing all or almost the whole season:

Wright

Thornburg

R Ross

 

Next, we'll find out Porcello was playing injured.

Edited October 28, 2017 by moonslav59

[Larry Cook]

Even with no surgery, I'd pass.

 

Makes you wonder how many Sox players were playing injured last year.

 

Price

HRam

Pedey

Scott

Smith

Workman

ERod

Bogey?

Betts?

Moreland

 

Plus, these guys missing all or almost the whole season:

Wright

Thornburg

R Ross

 

Next, we'll find out Porcello was playing injured.

 

What is a he Red Sox policy on players playing hurt?

 

Anybody who watched pedroia and Hanley last season had to know they weee hurting the team by attempting to play through the pain.

 

Same with Moreland after he broke his big toe!

[Bellhorn04]

What is a he Red Sox policy on players playing hurt?

 

Anybody who watched pedroia and Hanley last season had to know they weee hurting the team by attempting to play through the pain.

 

Same with Moreland after he broke his big toe!

 

Unfortunately there isn't a great supply of strong replacements, so the manager is faced with a choice between the good player who's banged up or a healthy minor leaguer.

[Kimmi]

Yes, but we could get to the cliff so much faster.

 

We wouldn't get to the cliff any sooner, it would just be a wider valley.

[Kimmi]

Trading draft picks would turn the cliff into a wide canyon.

 

Ha.

[Kimmi]

Dombrowski is doing exactly what the ownership hired him to do. He's here to maximize the team's chances to win next year, and rinse and repeat until all the ammunition in the shot locker is depleted. That's Dombrowski's MO, and Henry hired him in full knowledge of this. If you don't like that style of baseball, your problem is with Henry, not DD.

 

Henry definitely panicked in hiring Dombrowski. That said, I have an issue with Dombrowski as well. He could have accomplished the task without depleting the farm.

[Bellhorn04]

Henry definitely panicked in hiring Dombrowski. That said, I have an issue with Dombrowski as well. He could have accomplished the task without depleting the farm.

 

How could he have significantly upgraded our pitching without depleting the farm?

[moonslav59]

How could he have significantly upgraded our pitching without depleting the farm?

 

It is hard to know how. Basically every significant deal DD made, except for Young and Moreland was for ML ready pitching.

 

Sale

Price

Pom

Kimbrel

Smith & Thornburg

Fister

 

(Nunez & Davis were mid year deals.)

 

I guess, in hindsight, one could take back the Travis-Thornburg deal, and we'd have a couple more prospects on the farm and a power hitting 1Bman, but not many of us disliked that trade when it was made.

 

 

[Kimmi]

How could he have significantly upgraded our pitching without depleting the farm?

 

I would have started by trading for Kimbrel.

[moonslav59]

I would have started by trading for Kimbrel.

 

That was the deal I hated the most at the time.

 

Since closer contracts have sky-rocketed, the deal looks better.

 

Kimbrel's 2016 was pretty good but not outstanding.

 

His play this year certainly upped the balance on the trade.

 

My position on the trade was that we gave too many good prospects for a RP'er making free agent type money at the time.

 

I had nothing against Kimbrel. I projected him staying a top 3 closer for the remainder of his contract.

 

I also disliked the Pom trade.

 

I was okay with the Price deal, because we were desperate for an ace.

 

I liked the Thornburg trade.

 

I liked the Smith trade that involved just J. Aro as a prospect.

 

I absolutely loved the Sale trade.Smith trade.

 

All trades but the Thornburg one look good, so far, but the jury is still out on all but maybe the

[Spudboy]

How could he have significantly upgraded our pitching without depleting the farm?

 

Call a spade a spade, Bell.

 

Boy Blunder Bennie blew up a decent to good rotation for no justifiable or rational reasons.

 

That is why DD purged the minors and spent a fortune.

 

People were crapping all over his inability to build a good pen too. Look what he did. The Sox have a good pen but he spent chips and money to build it.

 

Our vaunted minor league treasures never produced either type of pitcher for this team in numbers worth mentioning.

 

For some reason Boy Blunder makes panties wet and splooge blown.