Fire alex cora

[dgalehouse]

I don't think Dombrowski deserved to be fired for one bad season . And I don't think Cora should be fired for one bad season . But we do need to be objective here . By any reasonable standard , Cora did not do a very good job this year . I don't know how anyone could dispute that .

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think Dombrowski deserved to be fired for one bad season . And I don't think Cora should be fired for one bad season . But we do need to be objective here . By any reasonable standard , Cora did not do a very good job this year . I don't know how anyone could dispute that .

 

Anything that isn't hard cold fact can be disputed, you know that.

[dgalehouse]

Anything that isn't hard cold fact can be disputed, you know that.

 

Dispute it if you will . But the bottom line stands for itself . And the bottom line is not good .

[Bellhorn04]

Dispute it if you will . But the bottom line stands for itself . And the bottom line is not good .

 

For me the bottom line on this season was the horrendous starting pitching, which is indisputable.

[Larry Cook]

For me the bottom line on this season was the horrendous starting pitching, which is indisputable.

 

This is 100 percent accurate.

 

Desperate dave’s Additions to this year’s roster have a combined war of about 3.5 games.

 

We got some regression from Betts and Martinez, but most of that is offset by devers and bogey.

 

But when you look at the war for sale, price, Porcello, eovaldi, and Rodriguez, you see the devastation to our roster, and that takes into account the great year by Rodriguez. Starters era this year is up about a full run from last year.

 

I think most of the problem can be tied to 2 decisions.

 

1.) taking Betts out of the leadoff spot at the beginning of the year. Without men on base, Martinez can easily be pitched around.

 

2.) not giving our starters the necessary work in spring training. Trying to go from zero to 100 in 1 day is ridiculous. And consequently, the only started who got adequate spring training work is having a career year while the others broke down.

 

My question is were these decisions made by Cora or desperate Dave?

 

Maybe Henry has already answered that question for us.

[dgalehouse]

You could debate whether , or how much , Cora's training camp contributed to the pitching problems . But the fact is he had no answers to dealing with it all . The Yankees and Rays certainly had many issues with their starters also , but they worked through it . If Cora deserves praise for last year , he has to take some blame for this one .

[Bellhorn04]

You could debate whether , or how much , Cora's training camp contributed to the pitching problems . But the fact is he had no answers to dealing with it all . The Yankees and Rays certainly had many issues with their starters also , but they worked through it .

 

But as you pointed out many times, the big difference between our pitching and the Yankees was that they have a much better bullpen. I trust your position on that hasn't changed.

[moonslav59]

But as you pointed out many times, the big difference between our pitching and the Yankees was that they have a much better bullpen. I trust your position on that hasn't changed.

 

They also had better starting depth, thanks to their better farm.

 

I'm not sure it's Cora's fault these guys sucked:

 

GS ERA as a SP'er SP Depth

8 6.95 Velazquez

7 5.09 Johnson

6 8.01 Cashner

3 7.94 Weber

2 0.00 Chacin

2 9.82 J Smith

1 9.00 DHern

2 0.00 Taylor & Lakins (3 IP total)

(31 Starts by non top 5 starters)

 

NYY (40 GS'd by non top 5 SP'ers)

24 4.28 German

13 4.15 Green

3 5.73 Loaisiga

3 24.00 Tarpley, Holder, Cortes (6 IP total)

[oldtimer]

They also had better starting depth, thanks to their better farm.

 

I'm not sure it's Cora's fault these guys sucked:

 

GS ERA as a SP'er SP Depth

8 6.95 Velazquez

7 5.09 Johnson

6 8.01 Cashner

3 7.94 Weber

2 0.00 Chacin

2 9.82 J Smith

1 9.00 DHern

2 0.00 Taylor & Lakins (3 IP total)

(31 Starts by non top 5 starters)

 

NYY (40 GS'd by non top 5 SP'ers)

24 4.28 German

13 4.15 Green

3 5.73 Loaisiga

3 24.00 Tarpley, Holder, Cortes (6 IP total)

 

Wasn't the pitching coach chosen by Cora? I am not so fast to provide excuses but am patient enough to see what next year brings.

[moonslav59]

Wasn't the pitching coach chosen by Cora? I am not so fast to provide excuses but am patient enough to see what next year brings.

 

Do we really think a better pitching coach would have gotten more out of the guys on that list?

 

Can we blame Cora for choosing the wrong guy to start, when every one on the list sucked or ended up sucking when used?

 

Would we be in the race or much closer, if we had German & Green, instead of Velazquez, Johnson, Cashner & Weber?

 

 

[dgalehouse]

But as you pointed out many times, the big difference between our pitching and the Yankees was that they have a much better bullpen. I trust your position on that hasn't changed.

 

No question . I said from the start that a strong and deep bullpen is more important in today's game than it ever has been . We were lacking this . No matter what you say about the rotation , when you are blowing half of your saves it is not good .

[Larry Cook]

No question . I said from the start that a strong and deep bullpen is more important in today's game than it ever has been . We were lacking this . No matter what you say about the rotation , when you are blowing half of your saves it is not good .

 

Did our starters inability to pitch, end up over working the bullpen? Brazier seems to me to be completely burned out and pitching with a dead arm.

[Elktonnick]

No question . I said from the start that a strong and deep bullpen is more important in today's game than it ever has been . We were lacking this . No matter what you say about the rotation , when you are blowing half of your saves it is not good .

 

This was substantially the same team as last year. Cora did not achieve success as a manager this year based on the team's record. That is fact. It follows then he should and deserves the same level of criticism for this year's team performance as praise for last year. Whether it was his decision or DD's to not properly prepare the pitchers is immaterial since he defended that decision repeatedly hence he has to bear responsibility for its effects. He can not have it both ways.

 

Ownership has given him a vote of confidence for next year. That may impress some but this is the same crowd who said they were going to extend DD's contract in February. Henry may be the best Red Sox owner in history but his oral promises aren't worth the paper they are printed on. The proof of Cora's value to the Red Sox organization will be whether he still is the team's manager come October 2020.

[moonslav59]

This was substantially the same team as last year. Cora did not achieve success as a manager this year based on the team's record. That is fact. It follows then he should and deserves the same level of criticism for this year's team performance as praise for last year. Whether it was his decision or DD's to not properly prepare the pitchers is immaterial since he defended that decision repeatedly hence he has to bear responsibility for its effects. He can not have it both ways.

 

Ownership has given him a vote of confidence for next year. That may impress some but this is the same crowd who said they were going to extend DD's contract in February. Henry may be the best Red Sox owner in history but his oral promises aren't worth the paper they are printed on. The proof of Cora's value to the Red Sox organization will be whether he still is the team's manager come October 2020.

 

Great post, but not all here were part of the "same crowd."

[Bellhorn04]

This was substantially the same team as last year. Cora did not achieve success as a manager this year based on the team's record. That is fact. It follows then he should and deserves the same level of criticism for this year's team performance as praise for last year. Whether it was his decision or DD's to not properly prepare the pitchers is immaterial since he defended that decision repeatedly hence he has to bear responsibility for its effects. He can not have it both ways.

 

No one knows for sure how much effect the spring preparation or lack thereof had. It's all strictly guesswork. That is a fact too.

[moonslav59]

No one knows for sure how much effect the spring preparation or lack thereof had. It's all strictly guesswork. That is a fact too.

 

Look at the NFL preseason, now. Nobody of value plays, and if they do, it's hardly ever.

[Bellhorn04]

Look at the NFL preseason, now. Nobody of value plays, and if they do, it's hardly ever.

 

There are a lot of things you can look at. Kershaw started this season on the IL. What was his preparation compared to Sale's, Price's and Porcello's?

 

Kershaw has his first start on April 15, pitches 7 innings of 2 run ball, and goes on to have the season you'd expect.

[fxkatt]

What a team needs to get from a good starting rotation is: 70% of all starts need to go either 6 full innings or more, and 25% should go 5 innings. None of these starters should be thinking about the pen...just do your job and get paid for that. When these factors are not present, then you might as well forget the playoffs, or do like TB and start relievers half the time or more. (maybe the problem, in the end, is Arena Ball)

[Elktonnick]

No one knows for sure how much effect the spring preparation or lack thereof had. It's all strictly guesswork. That is a fact too.

 

The overwhelming number of baseball professionals who have spoken about it in national media seem to believe that the lack of spring training preparation did have an adverse affect on the team especially their performance in April and May. In fact, I don't recall a single individual of any standing not connected to the Red Sox who has said or written anything defending the move. The real proof, however, will be how Boston handles Spring Training next year. I'll let you know because I will be there for the 6th consecutive season.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Elktonnick

[fxkatt]

Look at the NFL preseason, now. Nobody of value plays, and if they do, it's hardly ever.

 

There's some debate about this--even among Pats fans. But, more to the point, no pos in baseball compares to QB in the NFL, and injuries are at least 5-6 times more prevalent in football (esp the kind that can take you our for full season). Also, NFL pre-season coaching bows a lot to big name vet players--that is they trust they're ready to go--and can see it in training sessions. (powerful move now to shorten pre-season)

[Bellhorn04]

The overwhelming number of baseball professionals who have spoken about it in national media seem to believe that the lack of spring training preparation did have an adverse affect on the team especially their performance in April and May. In fact, I don't recall a single individual of any standing not connected to the Red Sox who has said or written anything defending the move. The real proof, however, will be how Boston handles Spring Training next year.

 

Nope, how they handle Spring Training next year won't prove a thing.

 

How they handled Sale, Price and Porcello this year was strictly because of their 2018 postseason workloads.

 

Obviously not an issue for next Spring Training.

[OH FOY]

An average NFL practice today in training camp is 2 hrs. With very little contact. Very little padded practices. 2 a days are gone. The guys are not in Game Shape for hard contact. Your not going to waste them in Pre-Season, when you can do like BB does, use Sept. as a Training Camp. Because all the teams are behind because the Players wanted it. Man is a genius. Different sport, from Baseball. Cant go by a sport, that is way, way more physical.

Most don't follow the Patriots, their important Months start in Nov. and December. Been like that for years. Not how start, how you finish.

Edited September 14, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

An average NFL practice today is 2 hrs. With no contact. Very little padded practices. The guys are not in Game Shape for hard contact. Your not going to waste them in Pre-Season, when you can do like BB does, use Sept. as a Training Camp.

Man is a genius.

 

Nobody knows the game better than Belichick does, pretty hard to argue that.

[OH FOY]

Nobody knows the game better than Belichick does, pretty hard to argue that.

 

Probably the Butler thing, you could argue. But, when we lost Jones before that game really hurt. Jonathan Jones is very underrated. Had a great SB this past year. By the way Undrafted FA signed by the Pats, they will find talent.

Real quick the Pats haven't been 2-2 or less in Dec. like last year in more then 12 years.

Edited September 14, 2019 by OH FOY!

[OH FOY]

Back to Baseball you start slow of course its no good, the only difference you don't have only 12 games or less to turn it around, like the NFL.

You have time to recover, and get back into it. Like the whole season is over in April. You have to crazy to give up then.

Now if they keep repeating like in April, throughout the season you have to look at 2 things, Players, and Coaches.

This team did that all year this year.

Kept repeating being mediocre.

Don't want to hear about injuries, everybody gets them. Good teams get over them.

Edited September 14, 2019 by OH FOY!

[OH FOY]

What was that the deep Post-Season, that's funny. Astros won the WS after they won 100 games, then won 100+, played 5 less games then the Sox, and they will win 100+ games again this season.

Come on Folks, your better then that. Those 5 games were brutal.

Edited September 14, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

What was that the deep Post-Season, that's funny. Astros won the WS, then won 100, played 5 less games then the Sox, and they will win 100+ games again this season.

Come on Folks, your better then that.

 

The Red Sox did do something slightly different in the 2018 postseason, using starters to pitch some big innings in relief. And it paid off handsomely.

 

They were concerned about the aftereffects of that.

[dgalehouse]

The Red Sox did do something slightly different in the 2018 postseason, using starters to pitch some big innings in relief. And it paid off handsomely.

 

They were concerned about the aftereffects of that.

 

A few innings ? And after a full winter's rest ? I think the general consensus is that the spring training regimen was a mistake . Not that I blame it for everything that went wrong . But no matter how you slice it , Cora did not have a very good year .

[Bellhorn04]

I do agree that next year is a big year for Cora. He needs to dispel the doubts that this season has created.

[Bellhorn04]

A few innings ? And after a full winter's rest ? I think the general consensus is that the spring training regimen was a mistake .

 

It may have been a mistake. But it doesn't explain why Porcello has pitched badly all season long. It doesn't account for injuries to Sale, Price and Eovaldi (all who have had recent injury issues coming into this year), or the flops of Johnson, Velazquez and Cashner, or the lack of any MLB ready starters in the minors.

 

I just think it's blown way out of proportion.