2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[Bellhorn04]

It was stupid at the time. They thought his bat was elite, yet almost all of his SR's had him as a high average, middling power hitter with developing patience. He wasn't an offensive juggernaut hence moving him off position before they even saw what they had there was really stupid. Swihart needed another year or two to become a big league level catcher. Heck, Jorge Posada caught for over a decade and he was clearly not great. He just learned how to catch well enough to make his bat overcome his deficiencies. I believe that was the case with Swihart. He'd be a minus defender with enough of a plus offensively for the position to make him an above average regular. Instead, they moved him to a position where offense is a premium and even if he turned into a good LFer, his bat would have been a minus. I'd get it if they moved him to 3b or 2b and saw if his bat plus defensive development maximize his value, but moving him to LF was just dumb. I honestly think the sox have demolished Blake Swihart's future and I think Blake would be better off being dealt to SD or to Atlanta and effectively having an MLB internship as a catcher

 

Pure speculation and hyperbole. Just for starters I highly doubt they rated his bat as 'elite'.

[MADSTORK]

Any news regarding Thornburg?

[Bellhorn04]

Any news regarding Thornburg?

 

Throwing bullpens, reportedly progressing nicely, very unlikely to be ready for Opening Day, but there seems to be optimism he'll be ready to go some time early in the season.

[moonslav59]

Moon - come on - I do like reading your posts and am sure glad that we have a poster here who just keeps it going but really who has said that Swihart or anybody else on this team is untradeable? I don't think that that is the point anyone is making so what is the rush? I sense panic in posters here for sure but not in the Red Sox management team.

 

This was tongue and cheek and directed towards natick.

 

Of course Swihart is tradeable. Of course JT is worth way more than Swihart.

[moonslav59]

It was stupid at the time. They thought his bat was elite, yet almost all of his SR's had him as a high average, middling power hitter with developing patience. He wasn't an offensive juggernaut hence moving him off position before they even saw what they had there was really stupid. Swihart needed another year or two to become a big league level catcher. Heck, Jorge Posada caught for over a decade and he was clearly not great. He just learned how to catch well enough to make his bat overcome his deficiencies. I believe that was the case with Swihart. He'd be a minus defender with enough of a plus offensively for the position to make him an above average regular. Instead, they moved him to a position where offense is a premium and even if he turned into a good LFer, his bat would have been a minus. I'd get it if they moved him to 3b or 2b and saw if his bat plus defensive development maximize his value, but moving him to LF was just dumb. I honestly think the sox have demolished Blake Swihart's future and I think Blake would be better off being dealt to SD or to Atlanta and effectively having an MLB internship as a catcher

 

It wasn't about thinking Swi's bat was elite. He was our best option for LF at the time as we had just missed out on obtaining Beltran at the last minute of the trade deadline.

[moonslav59]

What's the chances any Sox player starts out on the 60 day DL? (Q2: can a 60 day DL be made retroactive to, say, March 15th?)

 

How about Pedey?

 

ERod?

 

I think Pom and Thornburg look like 15 day DLs.

 

Hernandez might take longer, but he might not be a 60 day player.

 

I'm not sure what good it does us, other than being able to add someone to the 40 man roster, but when a player returns, we then have to DFA/trade someone.

[Kimmi]

Are you blaming Swihart's setback on them trying him in left field?

 

Couldn't it be that they've had strong doubts about his defensive abilities at catcher all along and wanted to give him a shot at another position?

 

No, I'm not blaming it on that, per se. I'm blaming it on the hastiness in which they 'gave up' on him after just 8 games.

 

If the Sox had such strong doubts about his defensive abilities at catcher all along, then why would they come back the following year and state that he was going to focus solely on the catching position?

 

I just don't think they handled his development very well, and yes, I very much think they were rash in some of their decisions with him.

[cp176]

No, I'm not blaming it on that, per se. I'm blaming it on the hastiness in which they 'gave up' on him after just 8 games.

 

If the Sox had such strong doubts about his defensive abilities at catcher all along, then why would they come back the following year and state that he was going to focus solely on the catching position?

 

I just don't think they handled his development very well, and yes, I very much think they were rash in some of their decisions with him.

 

I do sort of agree with you here. I'm not sure they handled his development particularly well also. I hope that he gets a good opportunity to make a solid comeback.

[jacksonianmarch]

They flubbed his development. I get there was a need, but an OFer who is above replacement value is a dime a dozen at the deadline. Taking a kid who's bat is projected to be top notch for the position and someone who has the raw skill to handle a difficult position should never be moved off the position.

[Natick to NC]

They flubbed his development. I get there was a need, but an OFer who is above replacement value is a dime a dozen at the deadline. Taking a kid who's bat is projected to be top notch for the position and someone who has the raw skill to handle a difficult position should never be moved off the position.

 

You are on the money with this ...

[moonslav59]

No, I'm not blaming it on that, per se. I'm blaming it on the hastiness in which they 'gave up' on him after just 8 games.

 

If the Sox had such strong doubts about his defensive abilities at catcher all along, then why would they come back the following year and state that he was going to focus solely on the catching position?

 

I just don't think they handled his development very well, and yes, I very much think they were rash in some of their decisions with him.

 

I think they wanted Vaz as the starting catcher all along, but he was not quite ready for opening day. It wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to Swi's firtt 8 games.

 

Just my opinion. (I happen to think they made the right choice.)

[Bellhorn04]

I think they wanted Vaz as the starting catcher all along, but he was not quite ready for opening day. It wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to Swi's firtt 8 games.

 

Just my opinion. (I happen to think they made the right choice.)

 

Yeah, I might be giving them the 'benefit of the doubt', but I didn't think that was a panic move either. Vazquez had missed an entire season.

[cp176]

Yeah, I might be giving them the 'benefit of the doubt', but I didn't think that was a panic move either. Vazquez had missed an entire season.

 

I just like the choice of words better - hastiness and maybe even rash as opposed to panic. It could have been a hasty move and maybe a bit rash but to me not a panic move. That implies to me that no thought at all was given to moving him and I do think that however we feel about what they did with Swihart, that there was some thought given to the move. Whatever, it kind of looks to me as though he is going to have that super sub role. He is going to get his chance. Teams showing interest in Marrero might help change the landscape a bit and it is great to hear that Kimbrel is going to be rejoining the team. Let's go!!!

[harmony]

The Kansas City Royals have signed Clay Buchholz to a minor league contract.

[Kimmi]

the kansas city royals have signed clay buchholz to a minor league contract.

 

nooooooo!!!!!

[Kimmi]

I think they wanted Vaz as the starting catcher all along, but he was not quite ready for opening day. It wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to Swi's firtt 8 games.

 

Just my opinion. (I happen to think they made the right choice.)

 

I have no doubt that the Sox wanted Vaz as the starting catcher all along, but I am also fairly confident that they weren't ready to call him as as soon as they did. I'd bet that if Swihart didn't have a rough couple of games in which the Sox went on to lose, they wouldn't have made the call to Vaz so quickly.

[Emp9]

I have no doubt that the Sox wanted Vaz as the starting catcher all along, but I am also fairly confident that they weren't ready to call him as as soon as they did. I'd bet that if Swihart didn't have a rough couple of games in which the Sox went on to lose, they wouldn't have made the call to Vaz so quickly.

 

I remember a bad game catching Wright. But then again, all our catchers have bad games trying to catch Wright.

[moonslav59]

the kansas city royals have signed clay buchholz to a minor league contract.

 

ty, kc!

[moonslav59]

I have no doubt that the Sox wanted Vaz as the starting catcher all along, but I am also fairly confident that they weren't ready to call him as as soon as they did. I'd bet that if Swihart didn't have a rough couple of games in which the Sox went on to lose, they wouldn't have made the call to Vaz so quickly.

 

I don't see it that way, but I sippose had Swihart gone 12-24 and looked okay on D, who knows.

 

I still think Vaz was going to be the starter all along, so the whole point about finding another position for Swihart would have happened sooner or later, anyways.

Edited March 19, 2018 by moonslav59

[S5Dewey]

I don't see it that way, but I sippose had Swihart gone 12-24 and looked okay on D, who knows.

 

I still think Vaz was going to be the starter all along, so the whole point about finding another position for Swihart would have happened sooner or later, anyways.

 

IMO The plan was Vaz & Swihart as a tandem. The fly in the ointment came when they picked up a light-hitting catcher (IIRC) while Vaz was getting his feet back under him after the TJ surgery and that catcher went on an offensive tear.

Then they had three catchers on the team. One who was solid defensively but questionable offensively, One who could hit well butvwas a question behind the plate, and one who was suddenly better than mediocre on both sides of the ball. Rather than trade the one who could hit they tried to find a place for him so they could both keep his bat and have in reserve in case one of the other two catchers didn't pan out.

 

I find it hard to question that plan, but it's come home to roost and they have to figure out to do with Swihart.

[moonslav59]

I remember a bad game catching Wright. But then again, all our catchers have bad games trying to catch Wright.

 

He had 4 WPs and 3 PBs in 6 games at catcher in 2016.

 

He had 2 PBs and no WPs in the game with Wright on April 10th.

 

The next day, Price had 2 WPs and Tazawa one with Swi behind the plate. Robbie Ross had a WP the following game with Swihart, and that was it. (2 PBs and 4 WPs in his last 3 games as a catcher that year.)

[moonslav59]

IMO The plan was Vaz & Swihart as a tandem. The fly in the ointment came when they picked up a light-hitting catcher (IIRC) while Vaz was getting his feet back under him after the TJ surgery and that catcher went on an offensive tear.

Then they had three catchers on the team. One who was solid defensively but questionable offensively, One who could hit well butvwas a question behind the plate, and one who was suddenly better than mediocre on both sides of the ball. Rather than trade the one who could hit they tried to find a place for him so they could both keep his bat and have in reserve in case one of the other two catchers didn't pan out.

 

I find it hard to question that plan, but it's come home to roost and they have to figure out to do with Swihart.

 

Fair enough.

 

I think they always felt Swihart's bat deserved a longer look than he got after his premature call-up the previous season.

 

I will say this, had Swihart hit .780 and not got hurt in LF, nobody would be saying anything right now.

[Natick to NC]

.....I have to jump in here ...Does anyone remotely remember the situation that put him in LF ??? Does anyone remember how they screwed Bard up not long before ??? I'm sorry but they screwed the pooch with Bard first and then Swihart ...Both these players should be part of this team .The facts are facts this team specifically developing pitchers has been a train wreck ..Then developing a power bat ???Bryce finally develops and they leave him off the playoff roster last year ??? I have hated some decisions this team has made recently ....Mitch ??? Holt ??? What the hell have they done to our shortstops bat ??? This guy was going to be a decent power bat 25 to 30 a year ...?? Pedey I looooove Pedey but cooooooome onnnnn !!! The guy takes strike one for years and no one steps in ??? Again with Pedey he's a mash unit now ....Time to move the heck on.Back to Blake why are we acting like he's 80 years old in a wheel chair ??? Did you even watch him catch this ST ??? He's freaking damn goooooooooood !!!!! Don't write this kid off he's got more Athelete in him than just about every starter we have not named Betts and his D looks pretty damn good to me ...more than good enough with that Bat .I wouldn't hesitate to kick Sandy Leon to the curb or Holt or Mitch ...ok done ranting incoherently ...I like Blake at catcher still can you tell ?

[Emp9]

He had 4 WPs and 3 PBs in 6 games at catcher in 2016.

 

He had 2 PBs and no WPs in the game with Wright on April 10th.

 

The next day, Price had 2 WPs and Tazawa one with Swi behind the plate. Robbie Ross had a WP the following game with Swihart, and that was it. (2 PBs and 4 WPs in his last 3 games as a catcher that year.)

 

Yeah the passed balls are his fault. The wild pitches aren’t. Spring weather too.

[Emp9]

.....I have to jump in here ...Does anyone remotely remember the situation that put him in LF ??? Does anyone remember how they screwed Bard up not long before ??? I'm sorry but they screwed the pooch with Bard first and then Swihart ...Both these players should be part of this team .The facts are facts this team specifically developing pitchers has been a train wreck ..Then developing a power bat ???Bryce finally develops and they leave him off the playoff roster last year ??? I have hated some decisions this team has made recently ....Mitch ??? Holt ??? What the hell have they done to our shortstops bat ??? This guy was going to be a decent power bat 25 to 30 a year ...?? Pedey I looooove Pedey but cooooooome onnnnn !!! The guy takes strike one for years and no one steps in ??? Again with Pedey he's a mash unit now ....Time to move the heck on.Back to Blake why are we acting like he's 80 years old in a wheel chair ??? Did you even watch him catch this ST ??? He's freaking damn goooooooooood !!!!! Don't write this kid off he's got more Athelete in him than just about every starter we have not named Betts and his D looks pretty damn good to me ...more than good enough with that Bat .I wouldn't hesitate to kick Sandy Leon to the curb or Holt or Mitch ...ok done ranting incoherently ...I like Blake at catcher still can you tell ?

 

I highly doubt Swihart will ever be as good defensively as Vaz or Sandy. But I think he can get better. Maybe even learn a lot this season if he’s on the bench next to who isn’t starting & watching who is. I think Swi will be the better bat though.

[harmony]

For what it's worth, FanGraphs ranks the Red Sox 21st in projected WAR from the catching position:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2018-positional-power-rankings-catcher/

[Natick to NC]

For what it's worth, FanGraphs ranks the Red Sox 21st in projected WAR from the catching position:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2018-positional-power-rankings-catcher/

 

21 st ?????? With Leon yup ... Play Swi and we are in the low teens within a month .Sandy will have his what 630 ops and what 5 HR ....? Blake can match those numbers in a slump .The Yankees ,Houston ,Cubs have to be in the top 5 ...Don't have to look ...We have to be better at Catcher ...we cannot afford a non productive at bats with who we are chasing down .

Edited March 20, 2018 by Natick to NC

[moonslav59]

Yeah the passed balls are his fault. The wild pitches aren’t.

 

Agreed, but some WPs are prevenatble with better defending catchers. (Not saying Vaz would have stopped all 4 or even 1.)

[harmony]

21 st ?????? With Leon yup ... Play Swi and we are in the low teens within a month .Sandy will have his what 630 ops and what 5 HR ....? Blake can match those numbers in a slump .The Yankees ,Houston ,Cubs have to be in the top 5 ...Don't have to look ...We have to be better at Catcher ...we cannot afford a non productive at bats with who we are chasing down .

Marcel projects 2018 OPS of .746 for Blake Swihart, .718 for Christian Vazquez and .715 for Sandy Leon, but FanGraphs Depth Charts projects Swihart at the bottom of the catcher OPS pile:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=ALL&teamid=3#C

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/swihabl01.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vazquch01.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/leonsa01.shtml

[mvp 78]

The Kansas City Royals have signed Clay Buchholz to a minor league contract.

 

Good for him, better for us.