Opening day batting order?

[cp176]

I still see Vasquez as the catcher of the future. Leon's time is obviously limited, with an expiration date on his effectiveness sneaking up on us. Swihart's defense looks to be improved, as does Vasquez's offense, for that matter. If we could get morph the two somehow, getting Swihart's bat, and Vasquez's defense/instincts as a catcher, life would turn out alright.

 

What makes you think that Leon's time is "obviously limited"? Even though I eventually think that it is likely that the job goes to Swihart down the road, at this point in time, I don't see much of a debate here. Others will have to outplay him to dislodge him from the starter's role. Leon is a very good defensive catcher who just might surprise us again.

[moonslav59]

The throwing aspect of of Vazquez' defense seems to have returned to 'elite' status.

 

Personally, I'm pulling for Vaz to make it as our starting catcher. This is nothing against the other two, both of whom I'd be happy with if they won the job. But I fell in love with the 2014 Vazquez. That type of defense is something special.

 

I feel the same way. I wouldn't be upset, if someone else legitimately overtakes him in the depth charts.

[moonslav59]

His career CS% and CERA are well behind CV's and Leon's. People in the org have said that he's improved, but no one has said that his defense is ready to play. If it were, he'd be on the opening day roster.

 

Swihart has a 39% CS rate in the minors. Vaz is 38%. Leon is 43% in MLB and was 45% in the minors.

 

(Note: I do not value CS% as much as many do. It is a just a small portion of the overall defensive value of a catcher.)

[mvp 78]

Swihart has a 39% CS rate in the minors. Vaz is 38%. Leon is 43% in MLB and was 45% in the minors.

 

(Note: I do not value CS% as much as many do. It is a just a small portion of the overall defensive value of a catcher.)

 

I don't care about Swihart's MiLB numbers.

[moonslav59]

I don't care about Swihart's MiLB numbers.

 

His ML number sample size is puny.

 

The guy has a nice pop time and a good arm.

 

He's had 61 ML SB attempts. If you think that's a large enough sample size to make a definitive determination that he is way worse than Vaz, then I don't what to say?

[mvp 78]

His ML number sample size is puny.

 

The guy has a nice pop time and a good arm.

 

He's had 61 ML SB attempts. If you think that's a large enough sample size to make a definitive determination that he is way worse than Vaz, then I don't what to say?

 

My definitive determination is that his defense sucked in 2015 and 2016 in Boston. He could get better, but I can clearly say that he sucked balls while playing behind the dish in the majors in 2015 and 2016.

 

If you deny that he sucked those two years, you're gaslighting. Saying "oh his sample size was too small" doesn't matter. You can say he may be better going forward, but definitively his defense has SUCKED so far over his major league career.

[mvp 78]

This is how I grade my catchers.

[notin]

My definitive determination is that his defense sucked in 2015 and 2016 in Boston. He could get better, but I can clearly say that he sucked balls while playing behind the dish in the majors in 2015 and 2016.

 

If you deny that he sucked those two years, you're gaslighting. Saying "oh his sample size was too small" doesn't matter. You can say he may be better going forward, but definitively his defense has SUCKED so far over his major league career.

 

 

He caught 84 games over a 2 season stretch. That most definitely is a small sample size. And while he wasn't stellar, what was it about his defense that you claim "definitively sucked?"

[Spudboy]

He caught 84 games over a 2 season stretch. That most definitely is a small sample size. And while he wasn't stellar, what was it about his defense that you claim "definitively sucked?"

 

Full disclosure Swihart is my binky.

 

I can understand why people favor elite defense over hitting from a Catcher. But Swihart has an MLB ready bat and a good one. He is very athletic and speedy.

 

My recollection from 2015 was that he was brought up much earlier than ideal because of Vasquez's surgery. In his games Swihart did have some problems blocking pitches.

 

Somehow this has lead many to say that he is not ready defensively and can not call a game. In fact, some here have said that pitchers do not like to throw to him.

 

I have never read or heard anything about that. I think that it is all just piling on a theme. "Swihart sucks defensively" or Swihart is not ready".

 

The idea that he is not ready or that he needs X amount of MiLB reps is largely over played in my view.

 

Does anyone think that both Vaz and Leone would be automatic choices as 1 and 2 if they had remaining options? Not me. I think that it would be a close call.

 

Alas I see Swihart being traded for something that can not be identified now.

 

Too bad. The kid is fun to watch.

[Fisk]

His career CS% and CERA are well behind CV's and Leon's. People in the org have said that he's improved, but no one has said that his defense is ready to play. If it were, he'd be on the opening day roster.

 

Actually he probably wouldn't be on the opening day roster because he has options and they want to keep the depth. His defense is not on par with those two, but would bet he would be a starter for a lot of teams.

[mvp 78]

He caught 84 games over a 2 season stretch. That most definitely is a small sample size. And while he wasn't stellar, what was it about his defense that you claim "definitively sucked?"

 

I watched it with my eyes. It was bad. The sample size on prior performance doesn't matter. It only matters for future projections. He definitively sucked behind the plate.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13176&position=C#fieldingadvanced

[mvp 78]

Actually he probably wouldn't be on the opening day roster because he has options and they want to keep the depth. His defense is not on par with those two, but would bet he would be a starter for a lot of teams.

 

I agree. He has tremendous upside. I think you give him one more season in AAA and then take the training wheels off next year.

 

The LF debacle was amazingly unfair to his development. It's a huge black mark on the FO to me.

[Fisk]

I agree. He has tremendous upside. I think you give him one more season in AAA and then take the training wheels off next year.

 

The LF debacle was amazingly unfair to his development. It's a huge black mark on the FO to me.

 

Yes that was definitely a misguided decision.

[harmony]

I watched it with my eyes. It was bad. The sample size on prior performance doesn't matter. It only matters for future projections. He definitively sucked behind the plate.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13176&position=C#fieldingadvanced

That link provides a balanced profile of Blake Swihart (about halfway down the top page).

[Emp9]

Yes that was definitely a misguided decision.

 

only slightly for his immediate timeline, not overall, and it was somewhat justified imho.

[Bellhorn04]

Full disclosure Swihart is my binky.

 

I can understand why people favor elite defense over hitting from a Catcher. But Swihart has an MLB ready bat and a good one. He is very athletic and speedy.

 

My recollection from 2015 was that he was brought up much earlier than ideal because of Vasquez's surgery. In his games Swihart did have some problems blocking pitches.

 

Somehow this has lead many to say that he is not ready defensively and can not call a game. In fact, some here have said that pitchers do not like to throw to him.

 

I have never read or heard anything about that. I think that it is all just piling on a theme. "Swihart sucks defensively" or Swihart is not ready".

 

The idea that he is not ready or that he needs X amount of MiLB reps is largely over played in my view.

 

Does anyone think that both Vaz and Leone would be automatic choices as 1 and 2 if they had remaining options? Not me. I think that it would be a close call.

 

Alas I see Swihart being traded for something that can not be identified now.

 

Too bad. The kid is fun to watch.

 

I don't think he'll be traded. I think we'll see Leon or Vazquez traded.

[notin]

I watched it with my eyes. It was bad. The sample size on prior performance doesn't matter. It only matters for future projections. He definitively sucked behind the plate.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13176&position=C#fieldingadvanced

 

Sample size absolutely matters. He caught 52 innings last season, and that was the only season he wasn't rushed to the majors out of desperation.

 

52 innings is meaningless.

 

And the rest of his sample really just shows how unprepared he was. DRS is measured against a league average, and while he was well below it with a -9 that first year, did anyone expect anything else?

 

If you want to cling to "he sucked" behind the plate, fine. But the sample so far really doesn't mean anything...

[notin]

I don't think he'll be traded. I think we'll see Leon or Vazquez traded.

 

Leon is the journeyman getting by on a BABIP-fueled hot streak for his only offensive output. But of the two, he also might be the better defender..

[Fisk]

I think Leon is eventually traded.

[Emp9]

I don't think he'll be traded. I think we'll see Leon or Vazquez traded.

 

Anyone else think this tandem of Leon & Vaz will be close to a 50/50 split? They're both having decent Springs. (Swihart had a nice Spring too but was obviously sent back. I'm satisfied w/ all three so far this spring).

[notin]

I think Leon is eventually traded.

 

 

Of the two, whoever brings back more will be traded. I want to ay that should be Vazquez, but there isn't much to support it...

[moonslav59]

I don't think he'll be traded. I think we'll see Leon or Vazquez traded.

 

I think we'll try hard to avoid trading a catcher. Swihart is no sure bet to succeed at the ML level, just because he did well this spring.

 

We may find a way to put a catcher on the DL or a rehab assignment while Swi gets his chance.

 

If that can't happen, I can see us trading Vaz or leon. My bet would be on trading Leon.

[Emp9]

Leon for a BP arm?

[moonslav59]

Leon for a BP arm?

 

How about Leon and Abad for a better BP arm?

[Fisk]

I love Vazquez's glove off the bench. Eventually can see Swihart 5 days a week and Vazquez 2.

[Emp9]

How about Leon and Abad for a better BP arm?

 

I'd be down for that when/if the time comes. All this goes without saying that if both Vaz & Swi closely live up to their potential. That's the prerequisite. If our BP is fine by then, I'd take a decent far away prospect back for the Leon and Abad too.

[notin]

How about Leon and Abad for a better BP arm?

 

What if the team that has the better bullpen arm decides to hold out for Vazquez?

[harmony]

How about Leon and Abad for a better BP arm?

How much trade value do Christian Vazquez, Sandy Leon and Blake Swihart have?

 

Steamer600, which assumes 450 plate appearances for each catcher but 600 plate appearances for Swihart, projects 2017 WAR of 1.6 for Vazquez, 1.6 for Leon and 0.4 for Swihart:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/projections.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&type=steamer600&team=3&lg=all&players=0&sort=27,d

 

Vazquez and Leon would rank 35th and 36th among all catchers in the Steamer600 projections (which, again, assume 450 plate appearances for each catcher regardless of the projected plate appearances):

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/projections.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&type=steamer600&team=0&lg=all&players=0&sort=27%2cd

 

The FanGraphs 2017 profile of Swihart points out the red flags:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13176&position=C

[bosoxmal]

The Sox bit the bullet today and sent Swihart to AAA. Both are at fault. Swhart for insisting (if the rumors are true) on being a catcher, when it is obviuos he is not a catcher. I had heard nothing bad about him this spring, but I am told he really hasn't improved. It is the teams' fault for not let him develop as a first baseman or left fielder. He is, I have been told, the most athletic member of the squad, He hits (LH & RH) runs the bases very well. In other words, a top offensive player. The chances he will come back about 20 minutes after one of the two left-overs are hurt. I don't like Leon's OR Vazquez's offense. Both were terrible for the entire month of September., and they haven't shown to be any different this year. W'll see, but it is a messy situation.

[Fisk]

How much trade value do Christian Vazquez, Sandy Leon and Blake Swihart have?

 

Steamer600, which assumes 450 plate appearances for each catcher but 600 plate appearances for Swihart, projects 2017 WAR of 1.6 for Vazquez, 1.6 for Leon and 0.4 for Swihart:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/projections.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&type=steamer600&team=3&lg=all&players=0&sort=27,d

 

Vazquez and Leon would rank 35th and 36th among all catchers in the Steamer600 projections (which, again, assume 450 plate appearances for each catcher regardless of the projected plate appearances):

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/projections.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&type=steamer600&team=0&lg=all&players=0&sort=27%2cd

 

The FanGraphs 2017 profile of Swihart points out the red flags:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13176&position=C

 

With Swihart and Vazquez it is about potential.