25 Man Roster

[oldtimer]

I've talked about trading Holt to allow Marco more playing time, but maybe trading an infielder or benching (Pablo) will be his only quicker way to a FT role with the Sox.

 

I wouldn't be surprised, if we end up trading Marco instead. Sad but possible.

 

Bogey and Pablo have 3 years of team control and Pedey has 5.

 

One issue is that Marco's worst non 1B infield position defensively is probably 3B.

 

Another issue is that Devers is viewed as Pablo's replacement, with Pablo possibly moving to 1B or DH as early as next season.

 

If Marco or Pablo could play 1B, Marco would be starting game 1. (Maybe Marco's quickest route, without an injury, is for Pablo to play 1B and Marco 1B.)

 

If Marco could play OF, Holt might have been traded by now.

 

I hope Marco gets a chance soon, but it looks like the only way he gets a legitimate shot with the Sox is if someone gets hurt or implodes.

 

 

With Sandoval's salary, he is going to get PT unless he totally fizzles. That is unlikely however Sandoval is not a great fielder at 3rd and Marco may be his equal in that regard. Will Pedroia make it through the season healthy? Keeping Marco is essential to me.

[moonslav59]

With Sandoval's salary, he is going to get PT unless he totally fizzles. That is unlikely however Sandoval is not a great fielder at 3rd and Marco may be his equal in that regard. Will Pedroia make it through the season healthy? Keeping Marco is essential to me.

 

I hope we do, but then why hold onto Holt then?

 

I can see Pablo ending up as a platoon, but it's too bad Marco is wrong-handed.

[oldtimer]

I hope we do, but then why hold onto Holt then?

 

I can see Pablo ending up as a platoon, but it's too bad Marco is wrong-handed.

 

Since Moreland was not sick on opening day, we could have had Marco up instead of Selsky. I agree with you that Holt may now be more valuable to another team than to our team and perhaps we could get something of value if he is traded.

[moonslav59]

Since Moreland was not sick on opening day, we could have had Marco up instead of Selsky. I agree with you that Holt may now be more valuable to another team than to our team and perhaps we could get something of value if he is traded.

 

I think Holt has a lot of trade value. I've never been for "handing him away", but I've always felt that if a player has more value to another team, a foundation for a good trade is set.

 

I could see us waiting until one of our big RP'ers is set to return (Thornburg or Smith) and then trading Holt and a RP'er (Abad, Hembree, Barnes?) for a much better RP'er... most likely a RP'er with no options remaining (Hembree and/or Abad).

[mvp 78]

I don't understand what it means for Brock to "have more value to another team" unless he's slated for a starting position elsewhere. Brock's value is as a supersub and that's how he'll be used here.

[Wade Boggs]

Since Moreland was not sick on opening day, we could have had Marco up instead of Selsky. I agree with you that Holt may now be more valuable to another team than to our team and perhaps we could get something of value if he is traded.

 

If Moreland got injured in the game and Hanley not being able in the field at first base, Farrell may have thought Selsky was better suited for 1B in a pinch. IMO..Selsky worked out there for a little.

[moonslav59]

I don't understand what it means for Brock to "have more value to another team" unless he's slated for a starting position elsewhere. Brock's value is as a supersub and that's how he'll be used here.

 

Exactly that. I think he would start just about every game (maybe at rotating positions) for at least 3-4 teams.

 

He hits lefties a little better than righties, so he could play day to day.

 

Plus, I only see Holt as our first sub off the bench for MAYBE one position: 2B, and even there, personally, I'd prefer Marco.

 

Holt would surely be the first sub off the bench at numerous positions for numerous "other teams".

[mvp 78]

Exactly that. I think he would start just about every game (maybe at rotating positions) for at least 3-4 teams.

 

He hits lefties a little better than righties, so he could play day to day.

 

Plus, I only see Holt as our first sub off the bench for MAYBE one position: 2B, and even there, personally, I'd prefer Marco.

 

Holt would surely be the first sub off the bench at numerous positions for numerous "other teams".

 

The team sees more value in Holt than you do. That's why he's still here. For better or worse, they see him as first off the bench for all IF and as the 5th OF.

[moonslav59]

The team sees more value in Holt than you do. That's why he's still here. For better or worse, they see him as first off the bench for all IF and as the 5th OF.

 

I meant first sub, if a player goes on the DL- not who goes in late in a game with the current 25 man roster.

 

Young is the 4th OF'er, so Holt is not the first guy in, unless Young is DH'ing. With Selsky on the 25, he might now be the 5th OF'er.

 

Holt is not the first man in at 1B, so it's not "all IF".

 

With Rutledge on the DL and Marco in AAA, yes, Holt is the "first guy" at 3B, 2B, and SS, but if anyone goes on the DL, Marco would be called up and be in front of Holt, IMO.

 

My long term (10 day DL or worse) depth chart:

 

1B: HanRam/Moreland> Selsky (T Shaw when ready), eventually Pablo, Maybe Swihart, then Holt

2B: Pedey> I have Marco slightly ahead of Holt here, but I would not argue with anyone wanting Holt at 2B, if Pedey gets hurt. Next is probably Rutledge or Marrero.

3B: Pablo> I like Rutledge as a Pablo platoon, but I'd take Marco over Rut and Holt, if Pablo gets hurt or benched FT.

SS: Bogey> Marco is the first sub here with Holt second.

LF: Beni> Young, then maybe Holt over Selsky but maybe not.

CF/RF: (Beni moves to cover)> Young to LF then Holt/Selsky

[mvp 78]

I meant first sub, if a player goes on the DL- not who goes in late in a game with the current 25 man roster.

 

Young is the 4th OF'er, so Holt is not the first guy in, unless Young is DH'ing. With Selsky on the 25, he might now be the 5th OF'er.

 

Holt is not the first man in at 1B, so it's not "all IF".

 

With Rutledge on the DL and Marco in AAA, yes, Holt is the "first guy" at 3B, 2B, and SS, but if anyone goes on the DL, Marco would be called up and be in front of Holt, IMO.

 

My long term (10 day DL or worse) depth chart:

 

1B: HanRam/Moreland> Selsky (T Shaw when ready), eventually Pablo, Maybe Swihart, then Holt

2B: Pedey> I have Marco slightly ahead of Holt here, but I would not argue with anyone wanting Holt at 2B, if Pedey gets hurt. Next is probably Rutledge or Marrero.

3B: Pablo> I like Rutledge as a Pablo platoon, but I'd take Marco over Rut and Holt, if Pablo gets hurt or benched FT.

SS: Bogey> Marco is the first sub here with Holt second.

LF: Beni> Young, then maybe Holt over Selsky but maybe not.

CF/RF: (Beni moves to cover)> Young to LF then Holt/Selsky

 

Holt IS the first man in for 1b as shown over and over in ST this year. HanRam will be DH only going forward.

Marco isn't on the roster.

JF values Holt over Rutledge, we've seen that ever since Rutledge was brought here.

Holt is 5th OF as I've stated previously.

[moonslav59]

Holt IS the first man in for 1b as shown over and over in ST this year. HanRam will be DH only going forward.

Marco isn't on the roster.

JF values Holt over Rutledge, we've seen that ever since Rutledge was brought here.

Holt is 5th OF as I've stated previously.

 

I think HanRam will play 1B vs LHPs when healthy.

I think Selsky was added over Marco due to Moreland's illness. I think he'd have played had Moreland not been ready.(Rutledge and Selsky combined played more ST'ing minutes at 1B than Holt.

 

Holt will never be more than an emergency sub at 1B. We'll bring Shaw up before letting Holt play 1B long term. I'm pretty certain of this.

 

Yes, Marco isn't on the roster, but I was talking longer term sub- not emergency fixes or an occasional spot start to give a FT'er a breather.

 

If Pablo, Bogey or Pedey went on the DL, would you really give the job to Holt over Marco? (Maybe the Sox would at one or two of these slots, but not SS.)

 

Even if you place Holt above Marco (SS & 2B & maybe 3B) and Rutledge (at 3B), is it really a big step down to one of those guys, if he was gone?

 

I do not think so, and the basis of my trade idea would be that the upgrade elsewhere would have to be greater than the "downgrade" at utility IF/OF, or I don't make the trade.

 

 

 

[mvp 78]

You can dismiss Holt's value all you want, but it's clear that this team loves Brock's versatility. He isn't going anywhere. Being a supersub isn't the same as being a long term replacement if a guy goes on the DL.

[moonslav59]

You can dismiss Holt's value all you want, but it's clear that this team loves Brock's versatility. He isn't going anywhere. Being a supersub isn't the same as being a long term replacement if a guy goes on the DL.

 

I'm not dismissing his value.

 

I know an emergency sub is different than a long term sub, and that's why I made that distinction.

 

I never said versatility is not an asset of high value. I do not want to give him away for a scrub.

 

Just because I value Hernandez higher than Holt does not mean I do not see any or significant value in Holt. I value him highly, and I think we should be able to get so meone very good for him or a package including him.

 

Obviously, Sox management values him more than what any GM offered them, and if I knew the player(s) offered, I might be on the same page.

 

How would you like it, if I stated that you "dismiss" Marco's value? I know you don't, but making these sorts of statements about my position is just plain false.

 

Do I value Holt less than the Sox? Maybe. Probably? We might never know. For all we know, the Sox could trade him for a bum, and we'd find out I valued him more highly!

 

(Note: I do not think we will trade Holt, but if Marco tears up AAA, they might think more about the idea. How Rutledge, Selsky and Shaw do may also be factors.)

[moonslav59]

You can dismiss Holt's value all you want, but it's clear that this team loves Brock's versatility. He isn't going anywhere. Being a supersub isn't the same as being a long term replacement if a guy goes on the DL.

 

Can you answer the question I asked before?

 

"If Pablo, Bogey or Pedey went on the DL, would you really give the job to Holt over Marco?"

[mvp 78]

Can you answer the question I asked before?

 

"If Pablo, Bogey or Pedey went on the DL, would you really give the job to Holt over Marco?"

 

Being placed on the DL is different than a supersub that takes over when I guy needs a blow every five days. I answered that in my very last post. You can call up Sam Travis long term, but you aren't going to park him on the bench if there isn't a consistent role for him. If a guy needs a rest or is DTD, Holt is the perfect fit. If a longer term option is needed, you get a guy from Pawtucket.

 

Right now, Marco is a negative WAR player. He may be better in the future, but I believe you let the former All Star get the playing time before an unproven guy who only OPS'd 787 in AAA last year.

 

Per the Tribune on Marco: If you could have a player who hit .294/.357/.373 and played acceptable middle-infield defense, you'd probably think of that as a player worthy of a spot on a major league roster. And in most cases, you'd be right. But the Red Sox are not currently most cases. They flaunt four-win (or better) players at both middle-infield spots, and third base is occupied by one high-salary player and one gritty, team-favorite utility player.

 

The Sox love Holt.

[mvp 78]

Per Sox Prospects: Field: Good actions at shortstop, though long term value at position is still to be determined. Moves well and has solid range. Hands are a little rough and footwork can get sloppy. Should be able to play shortstop in a backup role, but is not everyday quality defender. Defensive tools will play at second base.

 

Marco is fine, but the team has bigger concerns than the 25th guy on the roster. Having Holt makes Farrell's job a lot easier.

[moonslav59]

Per Sox Prospects: Field: Good actions at shortstop, though long term value at position is still to be determined. Moves well and has solid range. Hands are a little rough and footwork can get sloppy. Should be able to play shortstop in a backup role, but is not everyday quality defender. Defensive tools will play at second base.

 

Marco is fine, but the team has bigger concerns than the 25th guy on the roster. Having Holt makes Farrell's job a lot easier.

 

I will add that Holt is not an "everyday quality defender" anywhere but maybe 2B.

 

Holt's versatility certainly makes JF's job easier and adds value in ways that are not easily measured, such as JF being able to sub someone else, knowing he still has Holt on the bench to cover any injury or contingency, except at catcher.

 

Can you answer my question?

[moonslav59]

Being placed on the DL is different than a supersub that takes over when I guy needs a blow every five days. I answered that in my very last post. You can call up Sam Travis long term, but you aren't going to park him on the bench if there isn't a consistent role for him. If a guy needs a rest or is DTD, Holt is the perfect fit. If a longer term option is needed, you get a guy from Pawtucket.

 

Right now, Marco is a negative WAR player. He may be better in the future, but I believe you let the former All Star get the playing time before an unproven guy who only OPS'd 787 in AAA last year.

 

Per the Tribune on Marco: If you could have a player who hit .294/.357/.373 and played acceptable middle-infield defense, you'd probably think of that as a player worthy of a spot on a major league roster. And in most cases, you'd be right. But the Red Sox are not currently most cases. They flaunt four-win (or better) players at both middle-infield spots, and third base is occupied by one high-salary player and one gritty, team-favorite utility player.

 

The Sox love Holt.

 

I love Holt too, but I love Marco more, and I think Marco is not a negative WAR guy at this point in his development. That's just an opinion.

 

BTW, Brock has a +0.2 WAR last year with a negative batting and defense score. Only his base running kept him at a plus WAR.

[mvp 78]

I will add that Holt is not an "everyday quality defender" anywhere but maybe 2B.

 

Holt's versatility certainly makes JF's job easier and adds value in ways that are not easily measured, such as JF being able to sub someone else, knowing he still has Holt on the bench to cover any injury or contingency, except at catcher.

 

Can you answer my question?

 

I've already answered it.

 

You go with Brock until he falls on his face. You bring up Marco only if Sandoval/Xander/Pedey have a season ending injury.

[moonslav59]

I've already answered it.

 

You go with Brock until he falls on his face. You bring up Marco only if Sandoval/Xander/Pedey have a season ending injury.

 

Why not for a 10 day DL?

[mvp 78]

Why not for a 10 day DL?

 

I wouldn't jerk Marco around like that.

[moonslav59]

I wouldn't jerk Marco around like that.

 

Fair enough, but I think he'd rather be "jerked", if it meant he'd have at least 10 days in the bigs playing just about everyday knowing he'd be sent down when the injured player is ready.

[mvp 78]

Fair enough, but I think he'd rather be "jerked", if it meant he'd have at least 10 days in the bigs playing just about everyday knowing he'd be sent down when the injured player is ready.

 

What if he comes up and struggles a little? He won't have enough time to work through it.

[moonslav59]

What if he comes up and struggles a little? He won't have enough time to work through it.

 

True, but I don't think this kid is thin-skinned. He's actually not really a kid anymore. He turns 25 this season.

 

I see your point though. I just think 10 or more games is too much to go playing someone who I perceive as being inferior, even if just slightly.

[mvp 78]

True, but I don't think this kid is thin-skinned. He's actually not really a kid anymore. He turns 25 this season.

 

I see your point though. I just think 10 or more games is too much to go playing someone who I perceive as being inferior, even if just slightly.

 

If I'm the GM and am promoting Hernandez, it's only for a long term starting position need. He's already had his cup of coffee, I wouldn't bring him up unless the training wheels are really coming off.

[moonslav59]

If I'm the GM and am promoting Hernandez, it's only for a long term starting position need. He's already had his cup of coffee, I wouldn't bring him up unless the training wheels are really coming off.

 

Then he'd probably be traded, because he won't play FT for years unless there's a serious injury or Pablo fizzles out.

 

I suppose we could look to next year and move Pablo to 1B and HanRam to DH FT as Young and Moreland will be free agents. That would leave Marco with a chance to win the FT 3B job, but to me, 3B might be his 3rd best position after 2B and SS.

 

He's already spent 7 years in the minors. I think the grooming is over.

 

Maybe we disagree on what should be determined as "long term". I'd be okay with setting that time at 3 or more weeks, but personally, if an IF'er goes on the 10 day DL, Marco should and will be called up. The real question might be, does he start over Holt and/or a healthy Rutledge?

[Fisk]

If I'm the GM and am promoting Hernandez, it's only for a long term starting position need. He's already had his cup of coffee, I wouldn't bring him up unless the training wheels are really coming off.

 

I would also promote him if Holt goes down.

[cp176]

Oh boy oh boy - I'm loving this debate! As much as I hate what they have done, I too think that Hernandez provides some insurance that allows management to sleep at night. if something happens to Pedroia, which could and has, I'm guessing that would become Marco's time. Same goes for XB. It may be the only way he gets a chance in Boston. I will add that I like everything about Holt as well but someone brought up the idea of trading him. To whom and for what? Maybe somebody and not for much would be my answers. With that said I still love him.

[Bellhorn04]

I will add that I like everything about Holt as well but someone brought up the idea of trading him.

 

Yes, moon has brought it up a few hundred times.

[Fisk]

Oh boy oh boy - I'm loving this debate! As much as I hate what they have done, I too think that Hernandez provides some insurance that allows management to sleep at night. if something happens to Pedroia, which could and has, I'm guessing that would become Marco's time. Same goes for XB. It may be the only way he gets a chance in Boston. I will add that I like everything about Holt as well but someone brought up the idea of trading him. To whom and for what? Maybe somebody and not for much would be my answers. With that said I still love him.

 

You probably can get a decent bullpen arm for him.