Clutch vs non-clutch

[Bellhorn04]

Are there any recent or older studies that prove the existence of clutch?

 

Really so much of it appears to be fan perception and magnification of essentially small differences...

 

Not exactly. With some postseason numbers you can find very large differences (e.g. Schilling vs. Price) - it's the sample sizes that are what's small, arguably.

[Kimmi]

Crickets, Kimmi, crickets.

 

LOL There are tons of articles and research on clutch out there. Is there a reason why you have not searched yourself? When I look for these types of things, I typically stick with the baseball saber guys, like Bill James, Tom Tango, Mitchell Lichtman, Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus, and The Hardball Times.

 

Here's a good article on clutch hitting from Fangraphs with links to research:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/considering-high-leverage-performance-and-clutch-hitting/

 

And here is a link to a site containing links to clutch hitting research and articles:

 

http://cyrilmorong.com/ClutchLinks2.htm

[Kimmi]

Are there any recent or older studies that prove the existence of clutch?

 

Really so much of it appears to be fan perception and magnification of essentially small differences...

 

Tango states that he has found the existence of clutch players, but there are only like 2 of them, and their clutch ability is almost negligible. In other words, it really doesn't exist as a repeatable skill.

[cp176]

Are there any recent or older studies that prove the existence of clutch?

 

Really so much of it appears to be fan perception and magnification of essentially small differences...

 

I sure and hell hope not. Not everything can or needs to be proven.

[S5Dewey]

LOL There are tons of articles and research on clutch out there. Is there a reason why you have not searched yourself? When I look for these types of things, I typically stick with the baseball saber guys, like Bill James, Tom Tango, Mitchell Lichtman, Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus, and The Hardball Times.

 

Here's a good article on clutch hitting from Fangraphs with links to research:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/considering-high-leverage-performance-and-clutch-hitting/

 

And here is a link to a site containing links to clutch hitting research and articles:

 

http://cyrilmorong.com/ClutchLinks2.htm

 

And when I look to prove things like 'clutch' I instead look to the people who've played the game. If we ask people who deal with numbers all the time to question things that don't deal with numbers we know what we're going to get before the research even begins.

 

Players, people who've played the game, know who among them is clutch and who isn't. Do we ignore them because their experience doesn't fit the mathematical calculations?

[User Name]

I've talked to former players and coaches who now play in Japan/Mexico/DWL who don't believe clutch is a repeteable skill. Are they wrong then?

[Kimmi]

And when I look to prove things like 'clutch' I instead look to the people who've played the game. If we ask people who deal with numbers all the time to question things that don't deal with numbers we know what we're going to get before the research even begins.

 

Players, people who've played the game, know who among them is clutch and who isn't. Do we ignore them because their experience doesn't fit the mathematical calculations?

 

I know this topic doesn't sit well with you, and I really do not want to 'upset' you. I understand that you strongly believe that clutch players exist and I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Neither is any of the research. So we'll leave it at that.

 

Unless, of course you want to be drawn back into this debate. In which case I'll rehash all of my arguments.

[Kimmi]

I sure and hell hope not. Not everything can or needs to be proven.

 

Maybe not, but I think that's a large part of many of the misconceptions about baseball. They are beliefs that have been around since the beginning of the sport, and hence, they are accepted as gospel. Unfortunately for those that believe these things, many of them have been proven untrue.

 

I love the subtitle of the Baseball Prospectus book Baseball Between the Numbers.

 

Why Everything You Know About The Game Is Wrong

[a700hitter]

I know this topic doesn't sit well with you, and I really do not want to 'upset' you. I understand that you strongly believe that clutch players exist and I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Neither is any of the research. So we'll leave it at that.

 

Unless, of course you want to be drawn back into this debate. In which case I'll rehash all of my arguments.

No need to do that. We can just sum it up with the following. I think you are wrong and you think I am wrong. And neither of us can prove or disprove the other's position.

[Bellhorn04]

LOL There are tons of articles and research on clutch out there. Is there a reason why you have not searched yourself? When I look for these types of things, I typically stick with the baseball saber guys, like Bill James, Tom Tango, Mitchell Lichtman, Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus, and The Hardball Times.

 

Here's a good article on clutch hitting from Fangraphs with links to research:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/considering-high-leverage-performance-and-clutch-hitting/

 

And here is a link to a site containing links to clutch hitting research and articles:

 

http://cyrilmorong.com/ClutchLinks2.htm

 

Interesting that all the studies are about clutch hitting and there's nothing about clutch pitching.

[Bellhorn04]

I've talked to former players and coaches who now play in Japan/Mexico/DWL who don't believe clutch is a repeteable skill. Are they wrong then?

 

Do they believe choking is a real thing?

[a700hitter]

Interesting that all the studies are about clutch hitting and there's nothing about clutch pitching.

All the permutations and dynamics could never be quantified in a reliable way to prove or disprove anything.

[User Name]

Do they believe choking is a real thing?

 

Very much so. I've also heard the golf analogy from some of the wealthier baseball guys

[a700hitter]

Very much so. I've also heard the golf analogy from some of the wealthier baseball guys

I think most people acknowledge that "clutch" is just the absence of choking or choking less than your peers.

[Bellhorn04]

I think most people acknowledge that "clutch" is just the absence of choking or choking less than your peers.

 

This is an absolutely crucial point.

[User Name]

I think most people acknowledge that "clutch" is just the absence of choking or choking less than your peers.

 

It's what I keep saying.

[Kimmi]

I think most people acknowledge that "clutch" is just the absence of choking or choking less than your peers.

 

Even I don't have a problem with this definition of clutch. It's the idea that a player can raise his game to an otherworldly level when the pressure is on that I disagree with. As I've said many times, Papi gets big hits in clutch situations because he's a good hitter, period.

 

All that said, I don't think MLB level players are chokers. The chokers have been weeded out by the time they reach the major leagues.

[Kimmi]

Interesting that all the studies are about clutch hitting and there's nothing about clutch pitching.

 

I will have to look more into the topic of clutch pitching.

[Bellhorn04]

All that said, I don't think MLB level players are chokers. The chokers have been weeded out by the time they reach the major leagues.

 

Don't you think there are different levels of pressure, though? I certainly do.

[Bellhorn04]

You have to be able to deal with a certain amount of pressure to make it to the big leagues. But I don't think that necessarily means you'll be able to deal with the kinds of pressure that are created by crucial games with all the attendant heat from fans and media, or with the kind of negativity and abuse that a player is subjected to if they fail in a big situation or two.

[cp176]

You have to be able to deal with a certain amount of pressure to make it to the big leagues. But I don't think that necessarily means you'll be able to deal with the kinds of pressure that are created by crucial games with all the attendant heat from fans and media, or with the kind of negativity and abuse that a player is subjected to if they fail in a big situation or two.

 

I agree with what you have said here in general. It's all relative. Competing against people who are of your own talent level certainly allows for the pressure to take over once again. It clearly leads to people competing at higher or lower levels than they normally do at times. Professionals are not immune to the pressure simply because they are more talented than the average stiff.

[notin]

You have to be able to deal with a certain amount of pressure to make it to the big leagues. But I don't think that necessarily means you'll be able to deal with the kinds of pressure that are created by crucial games with all the attendant heat from fans and media, or with the kind of negativity and abuse that a player is subjected to if they fail in a big situation or two.

 

Do you think they care?

 

A lot of players we hear can't handle the media barely speak the language it's printed and spoken in. And it really DOES appear that enough of them are so egotistical they don't care about the opinions of people not good enough to be where they are.

 

At the end of the day, The one thing players really care about once the game ends appears to be job security and pay checks. This is their livelihood. And while they probably all want to win, it might not be the same priority with players as it is with fans...

[Bellhorn04]

Do you think they care?

 

A lot of players we hear can't handle the media barely speak the language it's printed and spoken in. And it really DOES appear that enough of them are so egotistical they don't care about the opinions of people not good enough to be where they are.

 

At the end of the day, The one thing players really care about once the game ends appears to be job security and pay checks. This is their livelihood. And while they probably all want to win, it might not be the same priority with players as it is with fans...

 

Seems like an awful lot of assumptions to me, notin.

[User Name]

Players are not robots. They each have their own personality and agenda. "One size fits all" descriptions like the one notin just gave are just silly. Look at a guy like Pedroia...dude treats a game of checkers like the 7th game of a WS, then look at Ellsbury, who got his big payday and now looks like he could not give less of a f***. You can't just throw a general description and try to apply it to any and all ballplayers.

[Kimmi]

Don't you think there are different levels of pressure, though? I certainly do.

 

You have to be able to deal with a certain amount of pressure to make it to the big leagues. But I don't think that necessarily means you'll be able to deal with the kinds of pressure that are created by crucial games with all the attendant heat from fans and media, or with the kind of negativity and abuse that a player is subjected to if they fail in a big situation or two.

 

Yes, I do think there are varying degrees of pressure. And I would imagine that performing in front of scouts for a shot at making it to the big leagues has to be some pretty intense pressure.

 

There might be some players who make it to the bigs who can't handle the pressure once they get there, but I really don't think those players last very long.

[Bellhorn04]

Very much so. I've also heard the golf analogy from some of the wealthier baseball guys

 

Care to pass on any specific names and comments?

[Kimmi]

For anyone so inclined to read this, here's a pretty convincing article that clutch is random. If you have the time, read the comments too.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-we-feel-how-we-feel-about-clutch/

[Bellhorn04]

For anyone so inclined to read this, here's a pretty convincing article that clutch is random. If you have the time, read the comments too.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-we-feel-how-we-feel-about-clutch/

 

I haven't read the comments yet but I will. As for the article itself, frankly I think that to the average fan it comes across as a bunch of unintelligible statistical mumbo-jumbo.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Bellhorn04

[Slasher9]

I've talked to former players and coaches who now play in Japan/Mexico/DWL who don't believe clutch is a repeteable skill. Are they wrong then?

 

yes.

[User Name]

Stupid is as stupid does, I guess.