Jose Bautista

[sk7326]

Dombrowski did have a great draft last year, but he realy hasn't built great farm systems since he was in Florida and had perennial top 5 picks. Granted, it's not a given to get a good farm system that way, but it does make things easier.

 

Right now, the Sox don't really have a great farm system top to bottom. Devers has been scouted to varying degrees by various agencies. Keith Law, for example, loves him. BA not so much. We shall see what it holds. Groome, Chatham and Dalbec are in the top ten, but really all were drafted in 2016 and there will be attrition as one or more of them simply don't pan out. No one seems to like Ball, although drafting him did allow the Sox to sign Longhi, so hopefully one of them works out.

 

Really, how many guys in the top ten do you expect to make the majors? Or become viable trade bait a la Moncada/Dubon/Kopech/etc. in the next 2 or 3 years?

 

This system won't be very good. It does happen, and replenishing it isn't as easy as many want to believe.

 

The biggest problem I had with Cherington is he didn't like to deal any prospects. Dombrowski is the polar opposite, dealing as many as possible (justifying his reputation). While I like this team, I also like a nice balance between the two extremes. Prospects right now are not worth what they were in trades 2 years ago, and this will handicap the Sox ability going forward just as much as not having a pipeline of players....

 

Devers is one of those whose statistical performance is a little hard to go on entirely - he was pretty good after a slow start as one of the youngest regulars in high-A, and next year he will be one of the youngest regulars in AA. I mean he will be in Portland at a younger age than Benintendi. He is being moved slow, but with darn good reason.

 

If Dombrowski deals Buchholz or Pomeranz for example, the test is whether he can get a good prospect - or at least a toolsy one. If the org's emphasis on bringing in great athletes continues, I'll have more comfort on this level.

[S5Dewey]

No they are not.

 

Benintendi, Betts and everyone mentioned including the massively overvalued Vazquez were all on the 25 man roster at some point in 2016 when we had the terrific farm system. Vazquz is the only name who wasn't there at the end of the year, and I don't worry so much about the status of the backup catcher position as a lot of people do...

 

Yes. And we can go back to that. We can (theoretically) send Benintendi, Betts, Vazquez and all those with less than three years seniority back to Pawtucket and we'll have a GREAT minor league system that we can brag about - while the Sox finish last again.

 

Whether Vaz is "massively overrated" remains to be seen, and even then whether he's overrated will depend on the person doing the rating and how much emphasis that person doing the rating puts on defense.

 

My point is that we have to go forward from where we are. It would be great if we had Moncada, etc. + Sale but we don't. There is no do-overs on the trades we've made. We have what we have for talent and it can't be in both Pawtucket and Boston at the same time. I'd rather see that proven talent at the ML level than in Pawtucket regardless of how strong the Pawsox or the Sea Dogs would be with them there. So let's not whine about how weak things are in Pawtucket. All things being equal we have three years (minimum) to rebuild that system.

[Bellhorn04]

The Pomeranz trade looks bad, but at the time we were desperate for another starting pitcher and there wasn't much available, and we were hoping to win a ring. So it has to be put in perspective.

[notin]

The Pomeranz trade looks bad, but at the time we were desperate for another starting pitcher and there wasn't much available, and we were hoping to win a ring. So it has to be put in perspective.

 

Sounds like another intentionally unnamed trade people have been lambasting for three years, except for the not winning a ring part...

[moonslav59]

Yes. And we can go back to that. We can (theoretically) send Benintendi, Betts, Vazquez and all those with less than three years seniority back to Pawtucket and we'll have a GREAT minor league system that we can brag about - while the Sox finish last again.

 

Whether Vaz is "massively overrated" remains to be seen, and even then whether he's overrated will depend on the person doing the rating and how much emphasis that person doing the rating puts on defense.

 

My point is that we have to go forward from where we are. It would be great if we had Moncada, etc. + Sale but we don't. There is no do-overs on the trades we've made. We have what we have for talent and it can't be in both Pawtucket and Boston at the same time. I'd rather see that proven talent at the ML level than in Pawtucket regardless of how strong the Pawsox or the Sea Dogs would be with them there. So let's not whine about how weak things are in Pawtucket. All things being equal we have three years (minimum) to rebuild that system.

 

I don't think we're whining. We're just concerned about the extended future. I, for one, love these recent trades, but I find myself surprised at how some posters seem to think rebuilding the farm with top prospects is not going to be very difficult within the new MLB structure and with no top 20 draft choices for 3 years.

[moonslav59]

Sounds like another intentionally unnamed trade people have been lambasting for three years, except for the not winning a ring part...

 

Imagine "that trade" discussion had we not won in 2013?

 

OH MY!

[notin]

Whether Vaz is "massively overrated" remains to be seen, and even then whether he's overrated will depend on the person doing the rating and how much emphasis that person doing the rating puts on defense.

 

 

Not really.

 

In fact, most publications that rate prospects praised his defense, but not much else. Basically, they typecast him as a backup catcher. There are dozens of other catchers who bring his defense to the table, including former Sox and current Chicago Legend David Ross, who lead all of MLB in release time at age 39.

 

Yet for some reason, on BDC and here, Vazquez is treated like some sort of newfound defensive revolution to the catcher position. He's a good defensive catcher. So is Leon. So was Hanigan at one time. What none of these guys are. with the exception of Leon last season, is a complete MLB caliber starter. And even Leon carried himself on a wave of BABIP so enormous, even Stevie Wonder saw it was unsustainable...

[notin]

Imagine "that trade" discussion had we not won in 2013?

 

OH MY!

 

Not, it's all in the perspective.

 

It's like Moncada for Sale. We all get why and no one really screams about it, except maybe a White Sox fan or two.

 

Think of it this way - the 1938 Red Sox were a second place team. Imagine if they dealt Ted Williams that July and received a pitcher who made up the difference (granted, a big one of 9.5 games, so suspend some belief for that part for this hypothetical) to put them past the Yankees into the World Series. So no Ted Williams in Boston, but they win it all in 1938.

 

If they won the Series, would that be a good trade? It's one more World Series than they won with 19 seasons of Ted Williams...

[S5Dewey]

Not really.

 

In fact, most publications that rate prospects praised his defense, but not much else. Basically, they typecast him as a backup catcher. There are dozens of other catchers who bring his defense to the table, including former Sox and current Chicago Legend David Ross, who lead all of MLB in release time at age 39.

 

Yet for some reason, on BDC and here, Vazquez is treated like some sort of newfound defensive revolution to the catcher position. He's a good defensive catcher. So is Leon. So was Hanigan at one time. What none of these guys are. with the exception of Leon last season, is a complete MLB caliber starter. And even Leon carried himself on a wave of BABIP so enormous, even Stevie Wonder saw it was unsustainable...

 

This is the same type of discussion that was had before JBJ blossomed. "Great defensive player, but will never be able to hit. Will never be anything more than a defensive replacement.". IMHO Vazquez will be the starting catcher by June 1, not because he hits like Buster Posey, but because of his stellar defense and the fact that DD loves defense.

[S5Dewey]

Not, it's all in the perspective.

 

It's like Moncada for Sale. We all get why and no one really screams about it, except maybe a White Sox fan or two.

 

Think of it this way - the 1938 Red Sox were a second place team. Imagine if they dealt Ted Williams that July and received a pitcher who made up the difference (granted, a big one of 9.5 games, so suspend some belief for that part for this hypothetical) to put them past the Yankees into the World Series. So no Ted Williams in Boston, but they win it all in 1938.

 

If they won the Series, would that be a good trade? It's one more World Series than they won with 19 seasons of Ted Williams...

 

YES! We now have someone comparing Iggy to Ted Williams!!

[notin]

This is the same type of discussion that was had before JBJ blossomed. "Great defensive player, but will never be able to hit. Will never be anything more than a defensive replacement.". IMHO Vazquez will be the starting catcher by June 1, not because he hits like Buster Posey, but because of his stellar defense and the fact that DD loves defense.

 

Now you're comparing major league Bradley to minor league Vazquez.

 

In the minors, where we get a glimpse of the ceiling, Bradley was an offensive force ranked among tje top 50 prospects in the game six times by three different agencies. Vazquez was never in the top 100 anywhere,which is interesting because other defensive-first catchers like Austin Hedges, were ranked. So it's not like they ignored defense. They just pegged his ceiling much lower thsn his fans like...

[S5Dewey]

Now you're comparing major league Bradley to minor league Vazquez.

 

In the minors, where we get a glimpse of the ceiling, Bradley was an offensive force ranked among tje top 50 prospects in the game six times by three different agencies. Vazquez was never in the top 100 anywhere,which is interesting because other defensive-first catchers like Austin Hedges, were ranked. So it's not like they ignored defense. They just pegged his ceiling much lower thsn his fans like...

 

Which makes more sense than comparing Iggy to Ted Williams! Even *I* didn't do that!!

 

What I was comparing was two players who were both in the minors at the same time, both of whom were considered to be nothing better than replacement players. Both of them were on the cusp of making the Sox at the same time. One of them has made it to the bigs while the other one got injured. Whether that second one makes it remains to be seen, but it's worth mentioning that the offensive expectations for a catcher are normally lower than for a CF'er. IOW Vaz doesn't have to have an OPS >.800.. but it sure would be nice if he did!

[moonslav59]

Not, it's all in the perspective.

 

It's like Moncada for Sale. We all get why and no one really screams about it, except maybe a White Sox fan or two.

 

Think of it this way - the 1938 Red Sox were a second place team. Imagine if they dealt Ted Williams that July and received a pitcher who made up the difference (granted, a big one of 9.5 games, so suspend some belief for that part for this hypothetical) to put them past the Yankees into the World Series. So no Ted Williams in Boston, but they win it all in 1938.

 

If they won the Series, would that be a good trade? It's one more World Series than they won with 19 seasons of Ted Williams...

 

The difference would be if that pitcher played an essential role in winning the ring.

 

Many feel Peavy did not.

 

Some feel Iggy might have booted a grounder for us and lost it for us.

[notin]

Which makes more sense than comparing Iggy to Ted Williams! Even *I* didn't do that!!

 

What I was comparing was two players who were both in the minors at the same time, both of whom were considered to be nothing better than replacement players. Both of them were on the cusp of making the Sox at the same time. One of them has made it to the bigs while the other one got injured. Whether that second one makes it remains to be seen, but it's worth mentioning that the offensive expectations for a catcher are normally lower than for a CF'er. IOW Vaz doesn't have to have an OPS >.800.. but it sure would be nice if he did!

 

Technically I compared Moncada to Williams. Really what I did was ask a simple question - do people want championship teams or star players? Because having the latter is no guarantee of the former.

 

Also NO ONE thought Bradley was a replacement level player in the minors. Vazquez, on the other hand, many did. Other than being minor leaguers in the same system at the same time, the two have very little in common. Bradley's early struggles don't change this. As for offensive expectations, that's not the point. The point is defensively Vazquez is similar to a lot of other catchers. He isn't the game-changing defensive force many credit him for being and his skillset is very reminiscent of a backup catcher, a skillset that has nothing to do with the offensive expectations of an outfielder. ...

[notin]

The difference would be if that pitcher played an essential role in winning the ring.

 

Many feel Peavy did not.

 

Some feel Iggy might have booted a grounder for us and lost it for us.

 

Saying Peavy was not a factor in the success of the 2013 team is a comment made by fans who look at his W-L record and ERA and ignore the trickle-down effect he had on that staff.

[Slasher9]

i would trade anyone on my team if it meant a parade.

remember that ss we used to have. the one that we loved, embraced, made the face of our franchise. remember him? sure. bye. hello parade.

if we were willing to trade him for a shot at a ring. iggy? absolutely. duckboats!

x-bo? betts? JBj? if it guaranteed a parade. IN.

 

Sandy Leon will not be the starting C for the red sox by the time we celebrate our Independence. vazquez. 100%.

[moonslav59]

Saying Peavy was not a factor in the success of the 2013 team is a comment made by fans who look at his W-L record and ERA and ignore the trickle-down effect he had on that staff.

 

I didn't say he wasn't a factor. I said was he "essential"? to winning a ring.

[S5Dewey]

Technically I compared Moncada to Williams. Really what I did was ask a simple question - do people want championship teams or star players? Because having the latter is no guarantee of the former.

 

Also NO ONE thought Bradley was a replacement level player in the minors. Vazquez, on the other hand, many did. Other than being minor leaguers in the same system at the same time, the two have very little in common. Bradley's early struggles don't change this. As for offensive expectations, that's not the point. The point is defensively Vazquez is similar to a lot of other catchers. He isn't the game-changing defensive force many credit him for being and his skillset is very reminiscent of a backup catcher, a skillset that has nothing to do with the offensive expectations of an outfielder. ...

Exactly and specifically what do you think Vazquez needs to do better defensively to be something better than a backup catcher? Is it that his arm isn't good enough? Or that he doesn't block pitches in the dirt. or that he doesn't frame pitches well enough?

[moonslav59]

Half the starting catchers in MLB are more defense orientated, so calling Vaz a back-up profile catcher might be premature.

 

Plus, maybe someday he can hit better.

 

Remember VTek had a .739 OPS on the farm and 3 of his first 4 seasons with 200 or more PAs saw him finish with an OPS below .730.

 

Vaz has a .734 minor league OPS, and yes, I just compared Vaz to VTek.

[Bellhorn04]

I didn't say he wasn't a factor. I said was he "essential"? to winning a ring.

 

Nobody knows if he was.

Nobody knows if he wasn't.

Nobody ever will know.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[sk7326]

Exactly and specifically what do you think Vazquez needs to do better defensively to be something better than a backup catcher? Is it that his arm isn't good enough? Or that he doesn't block pitches in the dirt. or that he doesn't frame pitches well enough?

 

I think there are some questions about his actual gamecalling and being a pitcher whisperer the way Varitek often was. (at least by the pitchers' testimony) Some of that comes with experience of course - but the staff ERA only stabilized after Leon took over full time. I am certainly not putting all of that on the catcher's shoulders - but it is a fair place to look.

[sk7326]

I didn't say he wasn't a factor. I said was he "essential"? to winning a ring.

 

He was a guy the Sox needed at the time. Iglesias was a luxury considering Drew was a pretty good SS. Iglesias at the time of the trade had a comically high BABIP IIRC which invited skepticism. But Iglesias has panned out to the degree he can, an otherworldy defender who can put up an empty .270 and allow his glove to play. Peavy helped during the marathon - even if he was less helpful going after the actual trophy.

[moonslav59]

He was a guy the Sox needed at the time. Iglesias was a luxury considering Drew was a pretty good SS. Iglesias at the time of the trade had a comically high BABIP IIRC which invited skepticism. But Iglesias has panned out to the degree he can, an otherworldy defender who can put up an empty .270 and allow his glove to play. Peavy helped during the marathon - even if he was less helpful going after the actual trophy.

 

Again, I never said he wasn't important. The question is and was and always will be, was he "essential"? As Bellhorn said, "Nobody knows!"

 

I understand the trade. I thought 1.3 years of Peavy was a good haul for a player that was never going to be given a starting slot on the team. That being said, I still disliked the deal back then and still do now.

[Bellhorn04]

Again, I never said he wasn't important. The question is and was and always will be, was he "essential"? As Bellhorn said, "Nobody knows!"

 

What we do know is that Peavy did almost exactly what the Red Sox and what any analyst should have expected him to do. If Ben Cherington thought the team needed exactly what Peavy provided, that's good enough for me. And we all know Ben was not a guy who liked trading prospects.

[moonslav59]

What we do know is that Peavy did almost exactly what the Red Sox and what any analyst should have expected him to do. If Ben Cherington thought the team needed exactly what Peavy provided, that's good enough for me. And we all know Ben was not a guy who liked trading prospects.

 

Although I disagreed with the trade, it made perfect sense given where we were and how Sox management viewed Iggy.

 

[notin]

Exactly and specifically what do you think Vazquez needs to do better defensively to be something better than a backup catcher? Is it that his arm isn't good enough? Or that he doesn't block pitches in the dirt. or that he doesn't frame pitches well enough?

 

What do you think Vazquez does that separates him from the backup catchers of the world? I've described him as Jose Molina 2.0. Think he's more Yadier? Or is career backup Jose a decent comp? Is Vazquez better or worse than Ryan Hanigan was in Cincinnati?

[Bellhorn04]

Although I disagreed with the trade, it made perfect sense given where we were and how Sox management viewed Iggy.

 

 

So how can you disagree with it if it made perfect sense - is it that you think they undervalued Iggy? Do you think they could have obtained Peavy for less? Or do you think Peavy wasn't essential? Which is it.

[cp176]

I think we could take back the Pom trade and hardly affect our odds at winning a ring this year, plus we'd be comfortably under the limit, so we could keep Buch.

 

Espi could be ready to replace Porcello 4 years from now. (Owens, Johnson and eventually Groome may replace Buch.)

 

alas - hindsight - the Pomeranz deal was done for a good reason that made sense. Espi might be working back wherever he came from as well 4 years from now.

[cp176]

And considering Benintendi and probably Hernandez on likely to be on the MLB roster, you could probably bump a few people up a slot or two. Ball comes in at 11 when you look at it that way.

 

Not to mention, Johnson is reaching an age where "prospect" needs to be changed to "suspect." Do that, and Ball makes the top ten. So I guess it becomes a bit difficult to rail against the horrible and devastating pick that Ball was while still saying we have a great farm system left.

 

For the next 3 years, this won't matter much at all. After that, the long term future is not so bright. And while a lot of people like to say "I don't care about 2021, if the Sox win now it will be worth it," they are lying. We all saw plenty of posters who couldn't handle 2014 right after a ring in 2013...

 

I don't read where many people say they don't care about 2021. Some of us actually disagree with you and think things will work out just fine.

[S5Dewey]

What do you think Vazquez does that separates him from the backup catchers of the world? I've described him as Jose Molina 2.0. Think he's more Yadier? Or is career backup Jose a decent comp? Is Vazquez better or worse than Ryan Hanigan was in Cincinnati?

 

As I like to tell people, don't answer a question with a question.

 

Exactly and specifically what do you think Vazquez needs to do better defensively to be something better than a backup catcher? Is it that his arm isn't good enough? Or that he doesn't block pitches in the dirt. or that he doesn't frame pitches well enough?