Rick Porcello Wins the Cy Young Award

[moonslav59]

When Ben publicly stated, "The first thing we needed to do was change the culture of the clubhouse," you could argue that those 3 guys were the biggest problems. Dodgers trade or not, at least 2 of them would've been gone that off-season.

 

But, we'd likely be paying most of CC and JB's contracts.

[moonslav59]

For a combined $18M ... without the trade the roster spots would not have been there - although the money under Henry's sofa cushions probably would have been.

 

Napoli's bonuses put him over $8M.

[sk7326]

When Ben publicly stated, "The first thing we needed to do was change the culture of the clubhouse," you could argue that those 3 guys were the biggest problems. Dodgers trade or not, at least 2 of them would've been gone that off-season.

 

Certainly the way Beckett poisoned the clubhouse in 2007 was an issue.

[Eddy Ballgame]

But, we'd likely be paying most of CC and JB's contracts.

 

I agree. I don't think it would've been possible to move Crawford without having to eat a ton of money or adding significant prospects to a deal. Beckett less so, but it sounds like they would've eaten his entire remaining deal just to get him out of there.

 

That Dodger trade allowed a for a "re-do" that lead to a World Series Championship. Tough to argue that it's not "at worst" a top 5 trade in Sox history.

[Eddy Ballgame]

Certainly the way Beckett poisoned the clubhouse in 2007 was an issue.

 

2007 was a long time away from 2012.

[moonslav59]

Certainly the way Beckett poisoned the clubhouse in 2007 was an issue.

 

I never understood what happened with Beckett. People's personalities usually don't change drastically overnight.

 

Josh was a fierce competitor for many years. He was on pace for becoming one of baseball's all time best playoff SP'ers.

 

Maybe it was the others who poisoned Beckett.

 

[moonslav59]

I agree. I don't think it would've been possible to move Crawford without having to eat a ton of money or adding significant prospects to a deal. Beckett less so, but it sounds like they would've eaten his entire remaining deal just to get him out of there.

 

That Dodger trade allowed a for a "re-do" that lead to a World Series Championship. Tough to argue that it's not "at worst" a top 5 trade in Sox history.

 

I'm fine with this order:

 

1. Pedro

2. VTek & Lowe

3. Dodger Dump

 

But, they are pretty close in my eyes.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I never understood what happened with Beckett. People's personalities usually don't change drastically overnight.

 

Josh was a fierce competitor for many years. He was on pace for becoming one of baseball's all time best playoff SP'ers.

 

Maybe it was the others who poisoned Beckett.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's something Jeff Passan wrote about him that year, but up in Boston, there was plenty of other stuff going around. It was no secret that he was sleeping with Heidi Watney at the time of the Dodger trade (She was "popular" with several players over the years/he was married) & he pretty much didn't give a s*** about anything.

 

[/https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/josh-beckett-s-golf-round-is-further-proof-the-red-sox-never-are-his-top-priority.html?client=safari

[moonslav59]

I never understood what happened with Beckett. People's personalities usually don't change drastically overnight.

 

Josh was a fierce competitor for many years. He was on pace for becoming one of baseball's all time best playoff SP'ers.

 

Maybe it was the others who poisoned Beckett.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's something Jeff Passan wrote about him that year, but up in Boston, there was plenty of other stuff going around. It was no secret that he was sleeping with Heidi Watney at the time of the Dodger trade (She was "popular" with several players over the years/he was married) & he pretty much didn't give a s*** about anything.

 

[/https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/josh-beckett-s-golf-round-is-further-proof-the-red-sox-never-are-his-top-priority.html?client=safari

 

I couldn't get the link to work.

 

It's are for an adult to radically change who he is.

[Eddy Ballgame]

 

I couldn't get the link to work.

 

It's are for an adult to radically change who he is.

 

Google "Jeff Passan on Josh Beckett." I don't think Beckett "radically changed" at all. It's a good read.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm fine with this order:

 

1. Pedro

2. VTek & Lowe

3. Dodger Dump

 

But, they are pretty close in my eyes.

 

Here's why I think there's no comparison:

 

1. Pedro trade - benefitted us for 7 years.

2. V-Tek/Lowe trade - benefitted us for 14 years - or you can knock off a few for Tek's decline.

3. Dodger dump - benefitted us for 1 year, indisputably, but after that it's anyone's guess.

[moonslav59]

 

Google "Jeff Passan on Josh Beckett." I don't think Beckett "radically changed" at all. It's a good read.

 

Found it.

 

Nothing in the article speaks to him not changing from his days in Florida and his 2007 season.

 

It did mention him getting fat during the 2011 season.

 

 

I think he changed.

 

I think he changed radically.

 

Maybe Lackey was part of the reason. Maybe it was just the wrong mix of players.

 

[Eddy Ballgame]

 

Found it.

 

Nothing in the article speaks to him not changing from his days in Florida and his 2007 season.

 

It did mention him getting fat during the 2011 season.

 

 

I think he changed.

 

I think he changed radically.

 

Maybe Lackey was part of the reason. Maybe it was just the wrong mix of players.

 

 

I don't think he changed "who he was" as a person. He was always known as an egomaniacal d**k, but that's probably a big part of what made the guy so successful. I just think he got tired of some of the ******** that's part of being a pro athlete, especially in a place like Boston.

[moonslav59]

 

I don't think he changed "who he was" as a person. He was always known as an egomaniacal d**k, but that's probably a big part of what made the guy so successful. I just think he got tired of some of the ******** that's part of being a pro athlete, especially in a place like Boston.

 

Most great athletes have big egos, but I never remember hearing anything bad about him in Florida or during his off year with us in 2003 up until the meltdown.

 

[Kimmi]

I think Beckett got a bad rap. I never thought he was the clubhouse cancer that he was reported to be.

[moonslav59]

I think Beckett got a bad rap. I never thought he was the clubhouse cancer that he was reported to be.

 

I'm not sure .who was behind it, but I do think something pretty bad was going on. Beckett sure didn't do much to stop or redirect it.

 

That was a damn good team that year. They pissed it away.

 

I'm one to think a leopard never changes his stripes. Sure, people can change, but it's very rare they go from a guy with a killer instinct to a guy who barely cared about winning.

[Kimmi]

I'm not sure .who was behind it, but I do think something pretty bad was going on. Beckett sure didn't do much to stop or redirect it.

 

That was a damn good team that year. They pissed it away.

 

I'm one to think a leopard never changes his stripes. Sure, people can change, but it's very rare they go from a guy with a killer instinct to a guy who barely cared about winning.

 

I just don't think it was that bad. I should say, I don't think that it was a bad clubhouse atmosphere that caused the collapse. Perhaps the collapse created some tension in the clubhouse, which losing tends to do. How was the team so well earlier in the season?

 

If the Sox had just a decent September and made the playoffs, we would have never heard anything about chicken and beer or anything about Beckett being a 'problem'. I don't think it was a big issue. But of course, that's the type of thing that the media blows up and runs with.

[cp176]

I love the reasons Porcello gives for not pitching in the WBC next year. Hopefully he does not get talked into it. It is pretty obvious from his comments that he understands the physical and mental too doing what he does demands. His loyalty is right where it belongs with the Boston Red Sox. Hope Price follows suit.

[Bellhorn04]

I just don't think it was that bad. I should say, I don't think that it was a bad clubhouse atmosphere that caused the collapse. Perhaps the collapse created some tension in the clubhouse, which losing tends to do. How was the team so well earlier in the season?

 

If the Sox had just a decent September and made the playoffs, we would have never heard anything about chicken and beer or anything about Beckett being a 'problem'. I don't think it was a big issue. But of course, that's the type of thing that the media blows up and runs with.

 

It's easy to understand how those stories would be taken seriously by a lot of people, because there was no logical explanation for what happened.

[Bellhorn04]

To the original topic: I am so indifferent about these awards. What they usually do is stir up controversy. This year is no different.

 

Where was Corey Kluber's wife in all this, by the way?

[Eddy Ballgame]

It's easy to understand how those stories would be taken seriously by a lot of people, because there was no logical explanation for what happened.

 

When the GM publicly states that, "he needed to change the culture of the clubhouse," there's definitely a problem. It's no secret Crawford & Gonzalez didn't want to be here, and Beckett was livid after he was ripped publicly after he decided to play 18 holes with Buchholz the day after he missed a start for "soreness." Beckett made his next start and threw batting practice for about 3 innings before Valentine finally yanked him. It was his "FU" to management.

 

No one can prove anything on this message board, but everything I've heard & read makes me think that it was much worse than most fans realize. My guess is that it will be a pretty big chapter in someone's book at some point. For now, we'all just have to disagree.

[Bellhorn04]

When the GM publicly states that, "he needed to change the culture of the clubhouse," there's definitely a problem. It's no secret Crawford & Gonzalez didn't want to be here, and Beckett was livid after he was ripped publicly after he decided to play 18 holes with Buchholz the day after he missed a start for "soreness." Beckett made his next start and threw batting practice for about 3 innings before Valentine finally yanked him. It was his "FU" to management.

 

No one can prove anything on this message board, but everything I've heard & read makes me think that it was much worse than most fans realize. My guess is that it will be a pretty big chapter in someone's book at some point. For now, we'all just have to disagree.

 

Wasn't there a rumor that Beckett's injury late in the year occurred when he slipped on tile or something in the clubhouse when he'd been drinking?

[moonslav59]

When the GM publicly states that, "he needed to change the culture of the clubhouse," there's definitely a problem. It's no secret Crawford & Gonzalez didn't want to be here, and Beckett was livid after he was ripped publicly after he decided to play 18 holes with Buchholz the day after he missed a start for "soreness." Beckett made his next start and threw batting practice for about 3 innings before Valentine finally yanked him. It was his "FU" to management.

 

No one can prove anything on this message board, but everything I've heard & read makes me think that it was much worse than most fans realize. My guess is that it will be a pretty big chapter in someone's book at some point. For now, we'all just have to disagree.

 

I think the situation was probably worse than we think. I bet some crap never came out.

 

When so many players are involved, the problem was serious.In my opinion, it went way beyond beer, chicken, golf and a cell phone call, and I'm not one that credits or blames clubhouse attitude as a significant factor in winning or losing very often.

[cp176]

I love the reasons Porcello gives for not pitching in the WBC next year. Hopefully he does not get talked into it. It is pretty obvious from his comments that he understands the physical and mental too doing what he does demands. His loyalty is right where it belongs with the Boston Red Sox. Hope Price follows suit.

 

Congrats again go to Rick Porcello! He is an example of the importance of character. If you have a larger number of players with his approach with respect to team first, incidents like the beer and chicken fiasco don't really tend to occur. Our current team seems to be composed for the most part by players that have this type of attitude. Character counts for much more than people realize at any level and for the most part in any craft.

[cp176]

I think the situation was probably worse than we think. I bet some crap never came out.

 

When so many players are involved, the problem was serious.In my opinion, it went way beyond beer, chicken, golf and a cell phone call, and I'm not one that credits or blames clubhouse attitude as a significant factor in winning or losing very often.

 

 

I think that attitude is a very significant factor in winning or losing. Character counts greatly. More than most realize at any and all levels.

[moonslav59]

I think that attitude is a very significant factor in winning or losing. Character counts greatly. More than most realize at any and all levels.

 

I realize how many value attitude more than I do. It's an area that's very hard to measure, but it clearly matters to some extent.

 

My point was that I'm not usually one to put much stock into attitude, so if I am saying that attitude made a difference that beer gate season, then it probably did and then some.

[cp176]

i got your point first reading - how about that. the importance of the non-quantifiable piece we have argued for years here. I spent my life coaching so it really is a waste of time for me to defend the importance of attitude and mental approach as being more important than statistical driven data. In my world, it has always been much more important. I'll say again how pleased I am that the Red Sox seem to be paying very close attention to the types of people they bring on board.

[moonslav59]

i got your point first reading - how about that. the importance of the non-quantifiable piece we have argued for years here. I spent my life coaching so it really is a waste of time for me to defend the importance of attitude and mental approach as being more important than statistical driven data. In my world, it has always been much more important. I'll say again how pleased I am that the Red Sox seem to be paying very close attention to the types of people they bring on board.

 

I know we've argued this point for a long time.

 

I've played on winning teams that have awful chemistry, but everyone had a strong desire to win.

 

Something happened to cause Beckett not to care anymore. I don't think it was all him, in fact, I'm guessing someone else or others started the cancer that spread quickly and got out of control.

 

I've never said chemistry doesn't matter. I do remember thinking that day Billy Maryin and Reggie Jackson went at it in the dugout on national TV, that they were toast. They ended up winning it all that year, and maybe that's what soured me to the idea that Chemistry and attitude mattered as much as many seemed to think it did. I also remember Manny trying to put Youk in his place in the dugout. I seem to recall soem teammates saying it was a long time coming. Youk was a fierce competitor though, so I think sometimes poor attitudes can be OVERCOME AS LONG AS THE GUY CARES.

 

I respect your opinion a lot. Maybe my position has swung more towards your side over the years, but I don't think I'm all the way there yet.

[Spudboy]

The human mind has a great deal to do with how a person performs in any task. That should be obvious.

 

What happened to that team is unknown. It s*** the bed big time. They were loaded for bear but ended up pissing all over themselves.

 

I suspect ( I can only suspect as I was not there in the clubhouse ) that there were many things and several people that heavily influenced the disaster.

[sk7326]

I never understood what happened with Beckett. People's personalities usually don't change drastically overnight.

 

Josh was a fierce competitor for many years. He was on pace for becoming one of baseball's all time best playoff SP'ers.

 

Maybe it was the others who poisoned Beckett.

 

 

I think it's like life. There are some bad eggs, and some true leader of men - and a bunch of guys in the middle. Beckett - in terms of chemistry hooey - was probably the middle. It went well when things went well and the reverse. (it's why chemistry is always a trailing factor to talent and success)