2016-2017 Offseason Trade Speculation Thread

[moonslav59]

There are only 4 possible scenarios for Swihart: Injured, traded, starting catcher in Boston, starting catcher in Pawtucket. That's it.

 

Why not the same logic with Vaz?

 

He needs serious work on his offense, and won't get it being Leon's back-up.

 

If Sox management thinks Swihart adds significant value as a platoon or back-up player due to an injury or struggling player ahead of him, they'll call him up in a heartbeat.

 

Right now, he's our 3rd catcher, our 5th OF'er and maybe our 3rd DH, so there's no reason for him to be on the 25 man roster. That can change quickly and likely will.

[Eddy Ballgame]

So, if Vaz or Leon get hurt, and the Sox don't feel Swihart will be the number one catcher, we won't call him up?

 

It depends on the situation, but they won't have him be a backup catcher for any significant amount of time. It would never happen.

[Eddy Ballgame]

They also aren't going to "platoon Benintendi" with anyone, either. If he struggles early on, they'll send him to Pawtucket. You don't ever "platoon" top young prospects for a reason. As of right now, they could struggle to find enough at bats for Young & Holt as it is, and you want to throw Swihart in the outfield mix?

 

Young really only needs to play vs LHPs. I see the DH position open for him as a platoon.

 

He's fine vs RHPs, but it's not like we have to go out of our way to find him PAs vs righties.

 

We don't need to try and find PAs for Holt either, even against righties. The guy is a .705 hitter. He's almost equal vs RHPs and LHPs over his career. You don't seek ways to get a .705 hitter in the game. You actually try to avoid it.

 

Beni was more or less platooned this year in Boston. If he's killing righties but struggling ve lefties, they won't send him down to AAA. Being the RH'd platoon with the Sox means you start over 75% of the games and can PH or PR in the others. For a guy who has never played more than 97 games in a season, a RH'd platoon would give him about 125 starts, which is sort of like playing FT in AAA's 142 game schedule.

 

I'm not advocating a Beni platoon, but it could happen. I doubt it, but it's possible.

 

It's the RH'd platoon players than languish on the bench and are usually better off playing FT in AAA.

 

 

You "try to avoid playing Brock Holt?!?!" Are you serious? One of the most difficult jobs a manager has is trying to keep everyone "fresh," even the reserve players. John Farrell will do everything he can to get Holt in a game at least once or twice a week. I know you're not a Holt guy, but I'm pretty sure the Sox value him highly. Farrell or any other manager in the history of baseball isn't going to try to "avoid playing" their bench players.

 

Benintendi will NOT sit against lefties if he struggles. He will NOT platoon with Young. He will play every day somewhere this season. There is no debating this. I'm not sure why you keep coming up with crazy scenarios with top prospects like Moncada, Swihart & Benintendi "DHing & platooning." It's never happened before and it's not going to start happening now. Give it up, man.

[Emp9]

I'm not discounting the chances Swihart will eventually take the 1 or 2 catcher slot; I just see a greater chance of a need at LH'd hitting DH and LF and maybe a RH'd hitting LF'er, if Young DHs vs LHPs.

 

I still like the chances that Swihart's defense will improve over the chances Vazquez's offense will improve. I could be wrong though. I'm also the one of the few (I've seen on here anyway & in most media) that think Swihart's defense of the first 6 games (out of 7 games was it?) had a lot to do with bad weather and of course Wright didn't help any of our catcher's look good all season (not that I'm complaining about Wright at all). Sure, you can add Swihart's green-ness into it as well, he was rushed after all. It's a whole 'nother argument I know, to begin the season later and end the season sooner, but I never discount the elements and I think those elements played a big role if one were to discuss Swihart's extremely short leash this past season. Playing World Series games in November is just as ridiculous as starting the season in 30 degrees and high wind, winter-like weather... as much as we've all normalized it. Many give free passes to SP's who are "slow Starters" for as much as the first 2 months of a season. So, I still don't think I'm being that outrageous here.

[bosoxmal]

There are only 4 possible scenarios for Swihart: Injured, traded, starting catcher in Boston, starting catcher in Pawtucket. That's it.

 

Why not the same logic with Vaz?

 

He needs serious work on his offense, and won't get it being Leon's back-up.

 

If Sox management thinks Swihart adds significant value as a platoon or back-up player due to an injury or struggling player ahead of him, they'll call him up in a heartbeat.

 

Right now, he's our 3rd catcher, our 5th OF'er and maybe our 3rd DH, so there's no reason for him to be on the 25 man roster. That can change quickly and likely will.

Nonsense

[moonslav59]

It depends on the situation, but they won't have him be a backup catcher for any significant amount of time. It would never happen.

 

I think Vaz is going to be the back-up, unless Leon flops.

 

Assuming Leon hits over .700 (no easy assumption, granted), I could see the Sox moving Vaz and Swihart up and down a couple time to get each of them the game action they both need.

[moonslav59]

You "try to avoid playing Brock Holt?!?!" Are you serious? One of the most difficult jobs a manager has is trying to keep everyone "fresh," even the reserve players. John Farrell will do everything he can to get Holt in a game at least once or twice a week. I know you're not a Holt guy, but I'm pretty sure the Sox value him highly. Farrell or any other manager in the history of baseball isn't going to try to "avoid playing" their bench players.

 

They are not going to sit Beni, JBJ, Betts, Bogey, Pedey or HanRam just to get Holt some time and keep him "fresh". He may play some, when they get their normal days rest, but Young may play OF instead, and TShaw, Pablo or Hernandez (and maybe eventually Moncada), whoever is not the starting 3Bman might play ahead of Holt at various IF positions.

 

Holt's best chance for significant PAs is at 3B or injury to a starter. He already saw his PAs cut by about 40% last year, and many of his PAs were a result of the Young injury and the flops at 3B. The rest were just playing when someone needed a rest. It wasn't like JF was benching stars so Holt could stay fresh.

 

Benintendi will NOT sit against lefties if he struggles. He will NOT platoon with Young. He will play every day somewhere this season. There is no debating this.

 

He platooned this year. There is a debate, if he continues his ML struggles vs LHPs.

 

If the guy is killing righties and struggling vs lefties, they won't send him down over 23% of the games beings started by a lefty.

 

I'm not sure why you keep coming up with crazy scenarios with top prospects like Moncada, Swihart & Benintendi "DHing & platooning." It's never happened before and it's not going to start happening now. Give it up, man.

 

I'm not saying I want them to platoon or think they will platoon, but there may be some scenarios where it is best for the team.

 

Call it crazy or absurd, but to me it'ds crazier to think they'd send Beni down if he's hitting .900 vs 77% of starting pitchers and .550 vs 23% of starters. Again, I'm not saying he will have bad splits. I don't think he will, but certainly the chance is there. It's not beyond debate.

[moonslav59]

I still like the chances that Swihart's defense will improve over the chances Vazquez's offense will improve. I could be wrong though. I'm also the one of the few (I've seen on here anyway & in most media) that think Swihart's defense of the first 6 games (out of 7 games was it?) had a lot to do with bad weather and of course Wright didn't help any of our catcher's look good all season (not that I'm complaining about Wright at all). Sure, you can add Swihart's green-ness into it as well, he was rushed after all. It's a whole 'nother argument I know, to begin the season later and end the season sooner, but I never discount the elements and I think those elements played a big role if one were to discuss Swihart's extremely short leash this past season. Playing World Series games in November is just as ridiculous as starting the season in 30 degrees and high wind, winter-like weather... as much as we've all normalized it. Many give free passes to SP's who are "slow Starters" for as much as the first 2 months of a season. So, I still don't think I'm being that outrageous here.

 

I like Swihart's chances of becoming a decent defensive catcher. I value him very highly.

 

I also think Vaz is so much better defensively right now, that it is likely Swihart never catches up. I think Vaz can improve too and will.

 

I agree on the likelihood of Swi improving his D being higher than Vaz improving his O, but there is a certain point where his O has to outweigh the D vs Vaz. I'm not sure how Sox management gauges such things, but I'd be interested to know how close they view Swi to Vaz right now overall.

[moonslav59]

Nonsense

 

What is?

 

That Vaz could use FT play to work on his offense?

 

That the Sox might acquire another Holiday before playing a red hot Swihart from AAA in just a platoon role where he starts 77% of the games?

 

That Swihart is higher on the depth charts than #3 catcher, #5 OF'er or #3 DH?

[Eddy Ballgame]

I think Vaz is going to be the back-up, unless Leon flops.

 

Assuming Leon hits over .700 (no easy assumption, granted), I could see the Sox moving Vaz and Swihart up and down a couple time to get each of them the game action they both need.

 

Even if Leon wins the job, my guess is it will be more of a platoon, than Vaz catching once a week. If one of them gets hurt, they'll go get a Holiday type.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I'm not saying I want them to platoon or think they will platoon, but there may be some scenarios where it is best for the team.

 

Call it crazy or absurd, but to me it'ds crazier to think they'd send Beni down if he's hitting .900 vs 77% of starting pitchers and .550 vs 23% of starters. Again, I'm not saying he will have bad splits. I don't think he will, but certainly the chance is there. It's not beyond debate.

 

It IS beyond debate. They would never sit Benintendi against all lefties, struggles or not. He is a top young prospect who needs to develop. The way to do that is to let him play through it or send him down. They would never consider a "platoon" with him at this point.

[Eddy Ballgame]

What is?

 

That Vaz could use FT play to work on his offense?

 

That the Sox might acquire another Holiday before playing a red hot Swihart from AAA in just a platoon role where he starts 77% of the games?

 

That Swihart is higher on the depth charts than #3 catcher, #5 OF'er or #3 DH?

 

Swihart isn't the #5 outfielder, Holt is. He's not on the DH depth chart at all, as it wouldn't even be a consideration at this point, and there is no way he would be on the roster as a "#3 catcher."

[S5Dewey]

There are only 4 possible scenarios for Swihart: Injured, traded, starting catcher in Boston, starting catcher in Pawtucket. That's it.

 

Why not the same logic with Vaz?

 

He needs serious work on his offense, and won't get it being Leon's back-up.

 

 

Do we know this? What we know is that he was sent down early in July to work on his offense and didn't get called up again until the September call-ups. In September he got 5 AB's with four of them being on the last game of the season when he got one hit for a double. Are we assuming that he didn't accomplish anything during the two months he spent in Pawtucket?

[Kimmi]

He was a far better left fielder than he was a catcher. But, aside from that, good hitting switch hitters are hard to find. And he is well into the early stages of development. He could also serve as the emergency 3rd catcher, thus saving a spot on the active roster.

 

Swihart would have more value as a catcher than as a left fielder. I think the Sox need to figure out whether he can improve enough defensively not to be a liability behind the plate. To do that, he needs to be catching everyday.

[Kimmi]

Vazquez looks like a prototypical backup catcher to me, which I don't consider an insult. He's a major league caliber player with a clear role.

 

I don't think Leon is that much better, and I think (and said repeatedly on BDC) that his offense last year was BABIP-fueled unsustainibility.

 

So at some point it is likely that replacing one of these guys not only happens but is also preferable and a worthwhile upgrade. ..

 

Of course Leon's offense last season was BABIP fueled and unsustainable. That said, I think it's possible that even with regression, Leon can be an average offensive catcher. He won't have an OPS of .850, but he should well improved from the .450 OPS that he had the previous seasons.

[Kimmi]

The Red Sox aren't going to impede the development of a young prospect like Blake Swihart to make him a platoon player on the Major League roster. It's shortsighted and it never happens.

 

They've already stated that Swihart will catch everyday in Pawtucket, unless he's forced into catching duties due to injury to Leon/Vasquez. Brock Holt will be the 5th outfielder when it's necessary and I'll be shocked if they don't bring in someone to handle the DH spot fairly regularly. Swihart certainly won't be in the DH mix.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you. At least I agree that it shouldn't be done. I hope the Sox are smart enough not to do it.

[moonslav59]

It IS beyond debate. They would never sit Benintendi against all lefties, struggles or not. He is a top young prospect who needs to develop. The way to do that is to let him play through it or send him down. They would never consider a "platoon" with him at this point.

 

Playing 77% of the games is pretty close to FT, especially for a rookie.

 

Again, I'm not calling for a platoon, but do you really think they'd send him down while hitting .900 vs RHPs?

 

You think they'd keep playing him vs lefties, if he's hitting .550 vs them?

 

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but what if it does?

 

If we sign Beltran, Young will not ride the bench vs LHPs as Beni hits .550. Young has been one of baseball's best hitters vs LHPs over the last 2 years combined. Like top 10 out of hundreds!

[moonslav59]

Swihart isn't the #5 outfielder, Holt is. He's not on the DH depth chart at all, as it wouldn't even be a consideration at this point, and there is no way he would be on the roster as a "#3 catcher."

 

I'm not saying he's on the 25 man roster. I merely showed the highest possible rank in the depth charts at 3 positions as of right now.

 

I agree, maybe 6th OF, but I'd rather have Swi than Holt in LF if a long term situation arose.

 

If Swi can hit over .800 and Leon or Leon are doing well, I could see Swihart as a DH... not ideal, but injuries could force the hand.

[moonslav59]

Of course Leon's offense last season was BABIP fueled and unsustainable. That said, I think it's possible that even with regression, Leon can be an average offensive catcher. He won't have an OPS of .850, but he should well improved from the .450 OPS that he had the previous seasons.

 

If Leon hit .700, Swihart will not overtake him in 2017, even if he's hitting .850 in AAA.

 

That could be a big if for Leon, but then there's the chance Vaz could hit .675 to .700.

 

[moonslav59]

I wholeheartedly agree with you. At least I agree that it shouldn't be done. I hope the Sox are smart enough not to do it.

 

I've said over and over I do not want to platoon Beni or Swihart, but starting 77% of the games is not like your being wasted on the bench, especially for 2 players that have never played a ton of games in one season.

 

Last year the Sox faced a righty starter 77% of the time. When you count PH situations, and injuries that might force a few starts vs the "wrong hand", it's quite possible a LH'd hitting platoon player could still get 550 PAs. Heck, Holt almost got that many in 2014.

 

We got Cody Ross as a platoon player and he got over 525 PAs in 2012.

 

[bosoxmal]

Any and all ideas about Swihart being a platoon player. He was improving by leaps and bounds when he was hurt, In 2015 (305 AB) he had 77K's and 18 walks. Im 2016 (74 AB's ---what's that, about 2 weeks) he had 17 K and 11 walks. His OPB was was 50 points, and he was making plays in LF. Platoon? He's a switch hitter! And trying to make a catcher out of him is not an option. He was a terrible catcher. Improvent at the plate when he stopped thing of himselaf as a slugger, and redression (if anything) behind the plate. He belongs in LF with Benintendi and Betts in CF and RF. Trade Bradley, not Swihart.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I've said over and over I do not want to platoon Beni or Swihart, but starting 77% of the games is not like your being wasted on the bench, especially for 2 players that have never played a ton of games in one season.

 

Last year the Sox faced a righty starter 77% of the time. When you count PH situations, and injuries that might force a few starts vs the "wrong hand", it's quite possible a LH'd hitting platoon player could still get 550 PAs. Heck, Holt almost got that many in 2014.

 

We got Cody Ross as a platoon player and he got over 525 PAs in 2012.

 

 

I really don't think you're understanding how "player development" works. "Cody Ross" wasn't a top young prospect. Andrew Benintendi "is," with a "perennial all-star" ceiling. He's going to face lefties this year, somewhere. They won't platoon him. It won't even be considered. He might get a day off against a "Chris Sale" once in a while, but that's it. If healthy and somewhat productive, he'll play "at least" 140 games.

 

You mentioned that you've been a Sox fan for over 40 years. Please come up with a top young, "athletic" prospect that was "platooned" or "DH'd" during their key development years.

[moonslav59]

I really don't think you're understanding how "player development" works. "Cody Ross" wasn't a top young prospect. Andrew Benintendi "is," with a "perennial all-star" ceiling. He's going to face lefties this year, somewhere. They won't platoon him. It won't even be considered. He might get a day off against a "Chris Sale" once in a while, but that's it. If healthy and somewhat productive, he'll play "at least" 140 games.

 

You mentioned that you've been a Sox fan for over 40 years. Please come up with a top young, "athletic" prospect that was "platooned" or "DH'd" during their key development years.

 

I was speaking in a hypothetical that I said was highly unlikely to happen.

 

Over the last 40 years, name a player that played FT hitting .900 vs one hand and .550 vs another in a season going for a championship.

 

Zero.

 

Probably the same number as a good prospect being platooned or DH'd.

 

I can't think any good prospects who ended up being forced to play DH due to an injury or struggling opening day DH.

 

I can't think of any good prospect platooned, except for last year with Beni himself, but it might not have happened for an extended time.

 

There. I answered your question. Now answer mine. Say it's mid June. We're two games up in the wild card. Beni is hitting .900 vs RHP sna d.550 vs LHPs. Leon and Vaz are doing great as catchers. Swihart is hitting .850 at AAA. You really think there isn't even a debate about bringing up Swihart or using Young to platoon with Beni in LF? No debate? The only choice is stick with a .550 hitter or demote him to AAA and lose his .900 OPS vs righties?

 

It may be an absurd scenario I've created, but the response is even more absurd.

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by moonslav59

[notin]

I was speaking in a hypothetical that I said was highly unlikely to happen.

 

Over the last 40 years, name a player that played FT hitting .900 vs one hand and .550 vs another in a season going for a championship.

 

Zero.

 

 

 

 

I CAN! I CAN!!

 

Kyle Schwarber. .936 vs RHP. .481 vs LHP.

[moonslav59]

You mentioned that you've been a Sox fan for over 40 years. Please come up with a top young, "athletic" prospect that was "platooned" or "DH'd" during their key development years.

 

I went back to 1971- the year I started following the Sox.

 

I only got to 1972 and already found an example.

 

The Sox faced 120 RHPs and 42 LHPs.

 

Dwight Evans started 41 games vs LHPs. Dwight Evans started just 40 games vs RHPs.

 

His splits? .881 vs LHPs and .580 vs RHPs.

It's not a strict platoon, but they sat Dewey vs 2/3rds of RH'd starters. He was a very athletic prospect about the same age as Beni and coming off a short appearance the previous season at the ML level.

 

Rick Miller and Ben Oglivie started the other 80 games vs righties.

 

 

Cecil Cooper DH'd 40 games in his first full year (1974). I only looked at 4 seasons and found two examples of what you said doesn't happen in player development.

 

I think Butch Hobson was mostly platooned his first year in the bigs in 1976.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

I CAN! I CAN!!

 

Kyle Schwarber. .936 vs RHP. .481 vs LHP.

 

Well, it worked out he started just 7 games vs LHPs and 52 vs RHPs. I'm not sure if he sat some games vs lefties, of if the team just faced a wild percent of righties that stretch..

[notin]

Bottom line - Swihart will be starting, very likely at catcher, wherever he is. Not likely Boston, but Pawtucket or another organization are both in play here. Hope the Sox keep him, but he absolutely is a good trade target for another team.

 

Personally I hate platoons. But in the wake of the Luxury Tax threshold I could see the Sox using one at DH this year. I don't consider it likely, but can't see how it isn't on the radar. ..

[Hugh2]

As of right now, I'm not worried about AB's splits vs LHP/RHP

[moonslav59]

Bottom line - Swihart will be starting, very likely at catcher, wherever he is. Not likely Boston, but Pawtucket or another organization are both in play here. Hope the Sox keep him, but he absolutely is a good trade target for another team.

 

Personally I hate platoons. But in the wake of the Luxury Tax threshold I could see the Sox using one at DH this year. I don't consider it likely, but can't see how it isn't on the radar. ..

 

I totally agree that Swihart's highest value is as a catcher. That's one reason Sox management has committed to starting him there this year, most likely at AAA to start the year.

 

I'm all for that.

 

My point has been that sometimes certain scenarios arise where teams decide to maybe go against what's in the best interest of a young player's development out of a higher need on the big club. It's not beyond debate to imagine a LF or DH platoon at some point this year. The DH platoon could be established day one as Young rates to be the DH vs LHPs and the slot vs RHPs is open as of now. Young may end up being the FT DH, but that might depend on how Pablo and Shaw are looking.

 

It wasn't in Bogey's best interest to move him to 3B in 2012, but we ended up needing him there. I caught a lot of flack back then for suggesting he be given some time there earlier than the 10 games they ended up giving him there before his call-up during a heated pennant drive. I was told then, "You don't understand player development protocol." Weeks later, he was moved to 3B.

 

It wasn't in Swihart's best interest to move him to LF, but once Young got hurt and Holt as well, he was quickly moved to LF after a short time in AAA learning the position. I called for giving him some reps at another position long before the short time he got. Again, I caught flack and was told "it's not going to happen!" Well, it did.

 

On Moncada last year, I was sharply critized for saying, "we should begin giving him reps in practice at 3B sooner rather than later." Again, I was told I have "no understanding or prospect promotion protocol!" I was also told, "No prospects should ever be forced to change levels and positions within one season. It just doesn't happen." It did. I even caught grief after it happened and was still called "wrong".

 

I suggested we start playing Beni in LF earlier than we did. Again, I was told that he's not going to be called up to play LF. I know the Beltran deal fell through, but the fact was there was a chance he might be needed there, and in my opinion, they waited too long to give him some time in LF. As with Bogey, the moves worked well, so it's hard to argue with the timing of the moves Sox management made, but certainly debating the subject of exploring various scenarios where a player might be needed outside his comfort zone or developmental progress protocol is not something that should be shut down.

 

Winning a championship is priority number one, and if a Young-Beni LF platoon is the best way to find Young PAs vs LHPs, it could happen at some point this year, depending on who is hitting lefties at DH and how well, and how Beni has done vs lefties over a significant amount of time. I doubt it happens, because I have faith in Beni, but I seriously doubt they demote Beni or keep playing him vs lefties, if he is showing a .550 OPS and we have better options (Young or Swihart). I also think that if Pablo flops or gets hurt, and we haven't acquired a LH'd hitter, it's certainly possible- not probable- that Swihart could end up DH'ing with Young as a platoon.

 

Maybe some here think it's futile to discuss unlikely scenarios, or they think it is so unlikely it doesn't warrant debate, but it's winter, and what else is there to talk about? I do think these conversations are going on with Sox management as they go over their depth charts and various scenarios involving injuries or unfortunate starter struggles.

 

[Bellhorn04]

I think what you might see is both Benintendi and JBJ sitting against some, but not all, lefties, with Young replacing them for those games.