Christian Vazquez

[Kimmi]

Thanks kimmi

When i saw him in AA the year they told him to pay more attention to offense, his BB went up and the Ks went down. Took more pitches and usually made solid contact. Add in the passion hes has for the game and position and who he works with in the off season (Jose Molina) and i saw a great all around catcher in the making. Of course his was just an opinion, but he had that “IT” factor that made him stand out...to me anyway.

So happy to see him back to full speed this year and able to help the Sox on BOTH sides of the game. I still believe hes a 280 320 400 hitter moving forward.

Looks like were about to clinch the division

GO SOX!!!

 

I am happy to see Vaz back at full speed also. I fell in love with him in during his short stint in 2014 because of his defense and have pulling for him ever since.

[SCM33]

Hopefully Vazquez catches 120 games this year. I think he is ready to take the next step. IMO he is already one of the best overall catchers in the game, hes just been limited with playing time. He is already a top 5 defensive catcher, his PB numbers were up this year, but I think that is an aberration.

 

Hopefully they find someone to replace Sandy Leon as the #2. Leon is an anchor in the lineup, and not in a good way. He is the definition of a black hole offensively and his defense doesn't make up for his offensive ineptness. I would probably accept Leon as a backup more, as long as he played 40 or less games a year.

[moonslav59]

If Vaz gets 120 games, I think Leon catches Sale and only Sale.

 

Sale had a 2.63 ERA with Leon behind the plate.

 

He pitched 209 out of 214.1 innings with Sandy.

[Larry Cook]

If Vaz gets 120 games, I think Leon catches Sale and only Sale.

 

Sale had a 2.63 ERA with Leon behind the plate.

 

He pitched 209 out of 214.1 innings with Sandy.

 

This makes perfect sense. But didn’t porcello pitch better with Leon behind the dish the year he won the cy young?

[moonslav59]

This makes perfect sense. But didn’t porcello pitch better with Leon behind the dish the year he won the cy young?

 

The overall evidence is inconclusive, but he does seem to struggle more with Vaz....

 

CERA

 

2015:

4.15 Hanigan (39 IP)

4.47 Swihart (107)

7.86 Leon (26)

 

2016:

2.52 Leon (107 IP)

3.45 Hanigan (16)

3.64 Vaz (94)

6.00 Swihart (6)

 

2017:

4.47 Leon (163)

5.36 Vaz (40)

 

I'd be fine with giving Porcello to Leon, but we might need more offense when Porcello pitches.

 

[Kimmi]

If Vaz gets 120 games, I think Leon catches Sale and only Sale.

 

Sale had a 2.63 ERA with Leon behind the plate.

 

He pitched 209 out of 214.1 innings with Sandy.

 

I get the impression that the FO is looking for Vaz to become a full time starter rather than having more of a platoon role with Leon. If that's the case, it makes perfect sense that Leon would catch only Sale. That is what I would like to see happen.

[Larry Cook]

Vazquez had 11 passed balls last year. 4th most in 2017. Not what I was expecting from him.

[mvp 78]

I think CV has a great arm, but the rest of his defense is just ok. He's good enough if he can hit a little.

 

Note: Hannigan was the league leader in 2016. Swihart was 2nd in 2015.

[Kimmi]

I think CV has a great arm, but the rest of his defense is just ok. He's good enough if he can hit a little.

 

Note: Hannigan was the league leader in 2016. Swihart was 2nd in 2015.

 

Vazquez' pitch framing is better than 'just ok'.

[cp176]

Vazquez's pitch framing was about as good as I have seen. Now I know that I don't follow other catchers much and I certainly don't pay attention to their advanced statistics but I watched a whole bunch of games and he really is good. I think that I have actually seen progression though. Early in the season last, i felt that he was actually trying to move balls back into the strike zone that maybe he didn't need to move. I felt at the time that it might have cost his pitchers some strikes. His framing is much more subtle IMO. I really thin that he is good - one of the best that I have seen.

[moonslav59]

I'm pretty sure most GMs view Vaz as an overall plus defender.

 

He can and should still get better.

[Larry Cook]

I think CV has a great arm, but the rest of his defense is just ok. He's good enough if he can hit a little.

 

Note: Hannigan was the league leader in 2016. Swihart was 2nd in 2015.

 

Wasn’t hannigan catching a knuckleballer?

[moonslav59]

Wasn’t hannigan catching a knuckleballer?

 

...and VTek led MLB in PBs for two years in a row. He must have been a sucky defender!

 

LOL.

[mvp 78]

...and VTek led MLB in PBs for two years in a row. He must have been a sucky defender!

 

LOL.

 

Tek was hella overrated.

[sk7326]

Vasquez should make the next step to full starter - remember it took him a while to emerge last year, so I am not sure how much to hold the pitcher splits against him. He clearly hits well enough to not be a drag - I mean he is a mediocre hitter, but good enough for the defense to play. And he did improve at the plate over the season. But a .270 hitter who doesn't give away at-bats with his framing and arm is clearly a good starting C.

[moonslav59]

Tek was hella overrated.

 

I disagree.

 

He did a lot of things that don't show up in stats and data.

 

His offense was very good for a 3 year period (2003-2005) with 3 other good seasons scattered around (1999, 2001 & 2007). A career .776 OPS is very good for a catcher.

 

He had 11 seasons with double digit HRs and 5 with 17 or more.

 

He also had 9 HRs in 6 consecutive playoff series (115 ABs) beginning in 1999. He had a career .744 playoff OPS, which is pretty decent for a catcher.

 

His defense was top notch starting around 2001, despite his poor CS% (23% career).

 

While catcher defense is hard to quantify, and WAR does not include much of what a catcher does, VTek still placed 26th out of 288 qualifying catchers in catcher WAR (24.3). He placed 27th in catcher OPS.

 

12th out of 133 catchers since 1998 in WAR (15th in OPS).

 

[mvp 78]

I disagree.

 

He did a lot of things that don't show up in stats and data.

 

His offense was very good for a 3 year period (2003-2005) with 3 other good seasons scattered around (1999, 2001 & 2007). A career .776 OPS is very good for a catcher.

 

He had 11 seasons with double digit HRs and 5 with 17 or more.

 

He also had 9 HRs in 6 consecutive playoff series (115 ABs) beginning in 1999. He had a career .744 playoff OPS, which is pretty decent for a catcher.

 

His defense was top notch starting around 2001, despite his poor CS% (23% career).

 

While catcher defense is hard to quantify, and WAR does not include much of what a catcher does, VTek still placed 26th out of 288 qualifying catchers in catcher WAR (24.3). He placed 27th in catcher OPS.

 

12th out of 133 catchers since 1998 in WAR (15th in OPS).

 

 

I disagree with your disagreement. His WAR totals are generally due to his long career. He hit well in a time period where almost everyone hit well. OVERRATED.

[moonslav59]

I disagree with your disagreement. His WAR totals are generally due to his long career. He hit well in a time period where almost everyone hit well. OVERRATED.

 

I disagree with your disagreement.

 

VTek's career spanned from 1997-2011. During that time, he placed....

 

18th out of 105 catchers with 1,000+ PAs in OPS.

21st in OBP at .341

21st in SLG at .435

 

In his prime, 1999-2007, he placed accordingly (69 players with 1,000 + PAs):

 

10th in OPS (.801) over a 10 year period

 

5th in WAR (22.0) (and also 5th out of 16 with 3,000+ PAs, so this is not due to longevity)

 

Placing 10th out of 66 shows he was very good during the era of hitting.

 

Changing the sample size:

OPS

8th out of 43 with 1500+ PAs

7th out of 29 with 2000+

6th out of 21 with 2500+

 

During this period, he was a top catcher in the league.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mvp 78]

I disagree with your disagreement.

 

VTek's career spanned from 1997-2011. During that time, he placed....

 

18th out of 105 catchers with 1,000+ PAs in OPS.

21st in OBP at .341

21st in SLG at .435

 

In his prime, 1999-2007, he placed accordingly (69 players with 1,000 + PAs):

 

10th in OPS (.801) over a 10 year period

 

5th in WAR (22.0) (and also 5th out of 16 with 3,000+ PAs, so this is not due to longevity)

 

Placing 10th out of 66 shows he was very good during the era of hitting.

 

Changing the sample size:

OPS

8th out of 43 with 1500+ PAs

7th out of 29 with 2000+

6th out of 21 with 2500+

 

During this period, he was a top catcher in the league.

 

 

 

20th best offensive C for that time period. Whoopdeeeffffffffffingdoo.

 

Side note: interesting that 15th ranked Xander is "below average", but 8-10th ranked Tek is "tops."

[moonslav59]

20th best offensive C for that time period. Whoopdeeeffffffffffingdoo.

 

Side note: interesting that 15th ranked Xander is "below average", but 8-10th ranked Tek is "tops."

 

20th out of 105 and my Bogey comp was Bogey being 29th out of 30 on defense.

 

I've never said Bogey was an overall below average SS. IMO, he is a below average defender.

 

Yes, I view 7th out of 30 as being a "top catcher", especially since pitch framing and handling of the staff are not covered by WAR or OPS.

[Larry Cook]

Except for Fisk, no catcher has handled a pitching staff as well as varitek. Pitchers loved throwing to him and didn’t he catch something like 5 no hitters?

 

Except for Fisk, no catcher in our history can compare to him!

 

He was a perfect fit for our organization . And guess what, we got him in a trade and we did not overpay! Hint hint to desperate dave!!!!

[moonslav59]

...and speaking of eras. VTek played before all the computer analysis took over. He was a walking encyclopedia. His knowledge of opposing hitters was legendary.

[sk7326]

...and speaking of eras. VTek played before all the computer analysis took over. He was a walking encyclopedia. His knowledge of opposing hitters was legendary.

 

A lot of his peak was right in its wheelhouse. Because the Sox analysis was proprietary does not mean it did not exist.

[mvp 78]

Except for Fisk, no catcher has handled a pitching staff as well as varitek. Pitchers loved throwing to him and didn’t he catch something like 5 no hitters?

 

Except for Fisk, no catcher in our history can compare to him!

 

He was a perfect fit for our organization . And guess what, we got him in a trade and we did not overpay! Hint hint to desperate dave!!!!

 

That says more about the s***** C's this team has had.

[moonslav59]

That says more about the s***** C's this team has had.

 

Not many, from any team, can top Fisk.

[moonslav59]

A lot of his peak was right in its wheelhouse. Because the Sox analysis was proprietary does not mean it did not exist.

 

It's well known, VTek was the man when it came to how to approach opposing batters.

[Bellhorn04]

To me it's a little ungrateful to knock players who helped us win two championships.

[moonslav59]

To me it's a little ungrateful to knock players who helped us win two championships.

 

I doubt we win without VTek.

[Larry Cook]

That says more about the s***** C's this team has had.

 

Well said! I agree 100%.

[Kimmi]

Tek was hella overrated.

 

Blasphemy.

 

Dude was underrated, if anything.