Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[Bellhorn04]

We don't know what the exact discussions with the M's were, but the whole gist of this argument should really be, who was a better commodity at the time, Miley or Buchholz? And harmony laid out a convincing case for why it was Miley.

[Kimmi]

We don't know what the exact discussions with the M's were, but the whole gist of this argument should really be, who was a better commodity at the time, Miley or Buchholz? And harmony laid out a convincing case for why it was Miley.

 

I can agree with and accept this opinion.

 

I take issue with some of the other assumptions that are being made.

[mvp 78]

I don't understand the snarkiness in this post.

 

Are you saying that it's okay to state something as fact when it's pure speculation?

 

When there's enough circumstantial evidence, you can make a very educated guess as to what happened.

[Kimmi]

When there's enough circumstantial evidence, you can make a very educated guess as to what happened.

 

But that educated guess it based on one's interpretation of the circumstantial evidence. And one's interpretation of the circumstantial evidence is subject to bias.

[mvp 78]

But that educated guess it based on one's interpretation of the circumstantial evidence. And one's interpretation of the circumstantial evidence is subject to bias.

 

The bias here is "how do we know Clay was offered to Seattle" when there are multiple reports claiming so. Ignoring those reports just seems foolish to me.

[User Name]

Everything is subject to bias all the time, including statistical analysis.

[mvp 78]

Everything is subject to bias all the time, including statistical analysis.

 

You monster!

[User Name]

That's what they call me while I'm shoulder pressing heavy at my local exercise establishment.

[Kimmi]

The bias here is "how do we know Clay was offered to Seattle" when there are multiple reports claiming so. Ignoring those reports just seems foolish to me.

 

Except I have yet to read a single report that actually says that Clay was offered to Seattle.

[mvp 78]

Except I have yet to read a single report that actually says that Clay was offered to Seattle.

 

Buchholz said himself that he was involved in the trade talks.

[Kimmi]

Buchholz said himself that he was involved in the trade talks.

 

He did not say that he was offered to Seattle. He said that his name was involved, which it was in all of the media speculation about whether it was Clay or Miley that was offered to the Mariners.

[Bellhorn04]

Buchholz said himself that he was involved in the trade talks.

 

I would interpret what he said as that he was involved in the trade rumors.

 

The whole Buch-or-Miley thing seems to hang on one tweet from Ken Rosenthal.

 

It's a rumor-a plausible one, but a rumor.

[Kimmi]

I would interpret what he said as that he was involved in the trade rumors.

 

The whole Buch-or-Miley thing seems to hang on one tweet from Ken Rosenthal.

 

It's a rumor-a plausible one, but a rumor.

 

And the way I read Rosenthal's tweet was that he was unsure of whether it was Buchholz or Miley that part of the deal, not that both were offered and he didn't know which one the Ms would pick.

[Slasher9]

again...because they were offered one or the other doesnt mean they wouldnt have taken either or both. it is ALL speculation.

[User Name]

Then let's not discuss anything that isn't undeniable fact and we have all of the available information.

[mvp 78]

Then let's not discuss anything that isn't undeniable fact and we have all of the available information.

 

If you can't find a smoking gun, there's no way to bring charges against anyone I guess...

[Kimmi]

Dombrowski did say that he fielded more calls about Miley than he did about Buchholz or Kelly, but that he did receive calls about the latter two. The point being that there are teams who wanted Buchholz.

 

Miley was traded because he apparently brought the best package in return. Carson's injury and hindsight aside, most people thought that this was a very good deal for Dombrowski.

[mvp 78]

Dombrowski did say that he fielded more calls about Miley than he did about Buchholz or Kelly, but that he did receive calls about the latter two. The point being that there are teams who wanted Buchholz.

 

Miley was traded because he apparently brought the best package in return. Carson's injury and hindsight aside, most people thought that this was a very good deal for Dombrowski.

 

Honestly, it's still a good deal. It should be easy to replace pitchers like Miley, Buchholz or Kelly. Bottom of the rotation guys grow on trees. The only strength Miley had was durability. The Red Sox probably kept Kelly and Buchholz around for their upside, but we've already seen that those two also have a tremendous amount of downside. Blah. I'd still do the deal today.

[Kimmi]

Honestly, it's still a good deal. It should be easy to replace pitchers like Miley, Buchholz or Kelly. Bottom of the rotation guys grow on trees. The only strength Miley had was durability. The Red Sox probably kept Kelly and Buchholz around for their upside, but we've already seen that those two also have a tremendous amount of downside. Blah. I'd still do the deal today.

 

Absolutely. I really liked this deal and thought the Sox made out good on it. Smith and Elias still have several control years left.

[Bellhorn04]

Smith and Elias still have several control years left.

 

Is Elias worth anything though? At the moment he looks like just another stiff.

[harmony]

The bias here is "how do we know Clay was offered to Seattle" when there are multiple reports claiming so. Ignoring those reports just seems foolish to me.

I've read no report that the Red Sox offered Clay Buchholz to the Mariners. Buchholz suggested that his name came up in discussions but I don't know the source of his information. Did Dave Dombrowski tell Buchholz that he had offered the righthander to Seattle? Or did a friend call Buchholz leaving the wrong impression after reading the Ken Rosenthal tweet? Or something in between?

[harmony]

Honestly, it's still a good deal. It should be easy to replace pitchers like Miley, Buchholz or Kelly. Bottom of the rotation guys grow on trees. The only strength Miley had was durability. The Red Sox probably kept Kelly and Buchholz around for their upside, but we've already seen that those two also have a tremendous amount of downside. Blah. I'd still do the deal today.

I suspect both teams would "still do the deal today."

[harmony]

Then let's not discuss anything that isn't undeniable fact and we have all of the available information.

That's why an astute poster will frame the issue as "If the Red Sox offered a choice ..." rather than "The Red Sox offered a choice ..."

 

A meaningful discussion can follow.

[mvp 78]

I've read no report that the Red Sox offered Clay Buchholz to the Mariners. Buchholz suggested that his name came up in discussions but I don't know the source of his information. Did Dave Dombrowski tell Buchholz that he had offered the righthander to Seattle? Or did a friend call Buchholz leaving the wrong impression after reading the Ken Rosenthal tweet? Or something in between?

 

So nothing less than a smoking gun would prove to you that Clay was offered? That's why this conversation will be talked about in circles endlessly.

[mvp 78]

That's why an astute poster will frame the issue as "If the Red Sox offered a choice ..." rather than "The Red Sox offered a choice ..."

 

A meaningful discussion can follow.

 

No meaningful discussion can follow if the only way to have a discussion is if there is 100% proof of something.

[User Name]

An astute poster understands that we're not privy to insider business information on anything regarding MLB dealings. Our discussions are almost always based on most, if not pure, speculation.

[mvp 78]

There hasn't been an astute poster on here for a long time...

[harmony]

An astute poster understands that we're not privy to insider business information on anything regarding MLB dealings. Our discussions are almost always based on most, if not pure, speculation.

Of course speculation provides a basis for discussion. I was speculating when I wrote "I suspect Seattle preferred Wade Miley over Clay Buchholz because the lefthander is younger, more durable, less expensive and under team control for more years. ... If the Mariners had a choice between Miley and Buchholz, the decision was a no-brainer."

 

I simply take issue with the erroneous statement that "it was reported widely (we've had this discussion before) that the Mariners were offered one of Miley/Buchholz in the deal."

[User Name]

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. The conclusion that they had a choice and chose Miley is almost, without doubt, the correct one.

[Bellhorn04]

A parallel to this speculative discussion is the ones we have often had about which moves Ben was responsible for and which he was not responsible for.