Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[mvp 78]

Again you're not getting it. Whether he sucks or not this season, the gamble was worth it.

 

I get your point. My point is that I don't agree with your conclusion. You "gambled" on a guy who is more likely to s*** the bed than provide TOTR stuff. He struggles pitching over 120 innings on a yearly basis. To me, that's not a guy I throw in the rotation when there are enough other question marks. I'd rather a more reliable high floor/low ceiling guy ala Wade Miley.

Edited May 24, 2016 by mvp 78

[mvp 78]

Then let's just compare Wright's performance and salary vs Buchholz's performance and salary? Obviously, Buchholz is not worth it since he is paid far more than Wright.

 

The Price/Buchholz comp is even more silly than that, especially when people make troll posts regarding Buchholz errr I mean Price's stats...

[Emp9]

I get your point. My point is that I don't agree with your conclusion. You "gambled" on a guy who is more likely to s*** the bed than provide TOTR stuff. He struggles pitching over 120 innings on a yearly basis. To me, that's not a guy I throw in the rotation when there are enough other question marks. I'd rather a more reliable high floor/low ceiling guy ala Wade Miley.

 

I liked Miley as well.

[mvp 78]

I liked Miley as well.

 

I don't expect every pitcher on the team to be a TOTR guy. I just prefer consistency over an annual roller-coaster.

[Emp9]

I liked Miley for what he was... To be more clear

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

you can compare any two players in baseball. that's what makes our favorite game the absolute best. i dont care if price has 5 more k's per start and buch has 5 more groundouts per start. the ERA (and to an extent WHIP) shows how a pitcher has performed THUS FAR. the peripherals can form a solid opinion on how you expect said pitcher to perform GOING FORWARD. but i dont care if my pitcher gets 18 outs a game via flyball or 18 outs a game vie K if the end result is a ~ 6 ERA they are doing the SAME RESULT.

now if you want me to talk "future starts" then yes, without a doubt Price should have better numbers than clay. but he is SUPPOSED TO. he is getting paid 2.5 times more than him this season and his length of contract is 7 years more than Clays. so yeah, he better put up better numbers and better "peripherals".

i dont expect my 1 year / $13MM contract pitcher to perform like a 7 year / $217MM pitcher. Do you? sure sounds like it.

 

I think you have it backwards.

 

You don't expect your 7yr/$217M contract pitcher to perform like a 1yr/$13M pitcher.

[Emp9]

I don't expect every pitcher on the team to be a TOTR guy. I just prefer consistency over an annual roller-coaster.

 

I still think we make a trade for a TOTR SP, and even before the season started I've been thinking its inevitable. My thinking has always been, forget Buchholz is even on the team and trade for another top SP. If Buch isn't having a great season it doesn't hurt us. If Buch is having a great season we could have one of the best rotations in baseball.

[Emp9]

That hasn't been the case, mind you. Neither of those two things have happened... But theres still time yet.

[a700hitter]

I think you have it backwards.

 

You don't expect your 7yr/$217M contract pitcher to perform like a 1yr/$13M pitcher.

Price has not performed like Buch and he will not perform like him.

[mvp 78]

I still think we make a trade for a TOTR SP, and even before the season started I've been thinking its inevitable. My thinking has always been, forget Buchholz is even on the team and trade for another top SP. If Buch isn't having a great season it doesn't hurt us. If Buch is having a great season we could have one of the best rotations in baseball.

 

If they had brought in another starter, there'd be less hand wringing on my part in regards to Buchholz. However, almost all of us have been wishing for an additional starter the past few years and the Sox still haven't pulled that trigger yet.

[Slasher9]

I think you have it backwards.

 

You don't expect your 7yr/$217M contract pitcher to perform like a 1yr/$13M pitcher.

lol. good point.

[Slasher9]

Then let's just compare Wright's performance and salary vs Buchholz's performance and salary? Obviously, Buchholz is not worth it since he is paid far more than Wright.

 

The Price/Buchholz comp is even more silly than that, especially when people make troll posts regarding Buchholz errr I mean Price's stats...

 

no. let's compare Wrights performance to what his own salary is. and he is far outperforming his contract. thats a win for the sox FO. Buch is pitching slighly below his contract price. TBD if its a win or loss for FO. Price is pitching far below his contract thus far this season. so far it is a loss for the FO.

[Slasher9]

I don't expect every pitcher on the team to be a TOTR guy. I just prefer consistency over an annual roller-coaster.

 

so last offseason who were you advocating the Sox FO go out and get for the 1 year / $13MM they are spending on Clay?

strange how this question never gets answered....

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Price has not performed like Buch and he will not perform like him.

 

I disagree, at times he has performed like buch and whether he will in the future remains to be seen.

 

You guys better hope he performs well or there's no chance he exercises the opt out. The back end of that contract could be pretty ugly.

[a700hitter]

I disagree, at times he has performed like buch and whether he will in the future remains to be seen.

 

You guys better hope he performs well or there's no chance he exercises the opt out. The back end of that contract could be pretty ugly.

Only a fool would equate Price with Buchholz, but then again there are Yankee fans.

[mvp 78]

so last offseason who were you advocating the Sox FO go out and get for the 1 year / $13MM they are spending on Clay?

strange how this question never gets answered....

 

So strange that it was answered with post 37 in this very thread.

[mvp 78]

We definitely needed that extra pitcher once ERod went down. It was clear within the first week or so that he wouldn't be ready for the season opener. Considering all of the other question marks in the rotation, that was the time to make a deal. They definitely lucked into Wright's performance.

 

If they had not picked up Buchholz's option, they could have grabbed a more reliable starter for similar or less money (i.e. JA Happ, Doug Fister, Colby Lewis) and the rotation would be looking much better.

 

So very, very strange...

[User Name]

you can compare any two players in baseball. that's what makes our favorite game the absolute best. i dont care if price has 5 more k's per start and buch has 5 more groundouts per start. the ERA (and to an extent WHIP) shows how a pitcher has performed THUS FAR. the peripherals can form a solid opinion on how you expect said pitcher to perform GOING FORWARD. but i dont care if my pitcher gets 18 outs a game via flyball or 18 outs a game vie K if the end result is a ~ 6 ERA they are doing the SAME RESULT.

now if you want me to talk "future starts" then yes, without a doubt Price should have better numbers than clay. but he is SUPPOSED TO. he is getting paid 2.5 times more than him this season and his length of contract is 7 years more than Clays. so yeah, he better put up better numbers and better "peripherals".

i dont expect my 1 year / $13MM contract pitcher to perform like a 7 year / $217MM pitcher. Do you? sure sounds like it.

 

You're all over the place.

 

The fact is you tried to make a point in defending Buch's futility by using Price's ERA as a comparison. It's incorrect, because of the underlying numbers for the results. End of story. It's not an issue of how much money they make. There are guys making league minimum (Pomeranz) who are outperforming overpriced veterans. That's not the point. The point is that Buchholz has been terrible, and Price's early struggles with bad luck are no justification, full stop.

[User Name]

no. let's compare Wrights performance to what his own salary is. and he is far outperforming his contract. thats a win for the sox FO. Buch is pitching slighly below his contract price. TBD if its a win or loss for FO. Price is pitching far below his contract thus far this season. so far it is a loss for the FO.

 

Slightly below his contract price? Please wake up from your dream and come join the rest of us in reality.

[User Name]

Only a fool would equate Price with Buchholz, but then again there are Yankee fans.

 

This is sig-worthy.

[Slasher9]

So strange that it was answered with post 37 in this very thread.

 

kind of easy to answer the question a couple months into the season. i said offseason.

Happ is on a 3 year deal. the other 2 are very good examples how hindsight is 20/20 (thus far).

[Slasher9]

You're all over the place.

 

The fact is you tried to make a point in defending Buch's futility by using Price's ERA as a comparison. It's incorrect, because of the underlying numbers for the results. End of story. It's not an issue of how much money they make. There are guys making league minimum (Pomeranz) who are outperforming overpriced veterans. That's not the point. The point is that Buchholz has been terrible, and Price's early struggles with bad luck are no justification, full stop.

sorry not full stop. my contention is that Buch is worth the $13MM option. regardless of whether or not he pitches to a 2 ERA. your contention is that it's ok for price to have a 5.5 ERA because he gets lots of k's and his babip is high.

[Slasher9]

Slightly below his contract price? Please wake up from your dream and come join the rest of us in reality.

 

Currently Price value is $19MM below his contract price. Clays value is $13MM below his contract price. so i guess your right. they are both far below value.

[mvp 78]

kind of easy to answer the question a couple months into the season. i said offseason.

Happ is on a 3 year deal. the other 2 are very good examples how hindsight is 20/20 (thus far).

 

I have no interest in reviewing all of my posts from Oct 1 - April 1.

[Spudboy]

I gave at least one example during the tail end of last season.

 

 

John Lackey.

[Slasher9]

I gave at least one example during the tail end of last season.

 

 

John Lackey.

 

a 2 year deal at slightly more AAV but close enough to be comparable. definitely a worthy replacement to clay. but i wonder if he would have signed with the Sox or had that bridge already been torched?

[User Name]

sorry not full stop. my contention is that Buch is worth the $13MM option. regardless of whether or not he pitches to a 2 ERA. your contention is that it's ok for price to have a 5.5 ERA because he gets lots of k's and his babip is high.

 

Do you even logic? What I'm saying is that Price will see a correction and his performance will adjust to his peripherals health permitting. Clay is what he is right now.

[User Name]

Currently Price value is $19MM below his contract price. Clays value is $13MM below his contract price. so i guess your right. they are both far below value.

 

Yes, right now they both are significantly below value. Saying either is slightly below their value is an affront to logic.

[S5Dewey]

Currently Price value is $19MM below his contract price. Clays value is $13MM below his contract price. so i guess your right. they are both far below value.

 

It's all about expectations and ROI. Baseball IS a business, after all.

 

In a perfect world a player would be paid based on what he does, but baseball isn't a perfect world. In baseball a player is paid based on what the FO thinks he will do next year. The FO then tries to calculate a Return on Investment for each player. That's a fancy way of saying they try to figure out what each player is going to be worth and pay them that much (or a little less!!) In a nutshell, salaries are based on expectations.

 

Comparing David Price and Clay Buchholz now....

Price is getting $30MM to pitch this year and it's realistic to think going into the season that he should win 22 games. He is, after all, one of the best pitchers in baseball. If he wins 22 games he "earns" $1.4MM per win. Others may disagree but I see that as a realistic barometer.

 

Now lets look at Buch. He's making $13MM this year. At 1.4MM per win he has to only win 9 games to be as valuable as Price. Will he do it? I dunno. But I do know that based on what he's done in past years he could be capable of reeling off a dozen wins in a row, which would make him underpaid.

Edited May 24, 2016 by S5Dewey
Clarity

[User Name]

Wins are not an accurate tool to assess a pitcher's value in any way, shape of form.