2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[SoxnCycles]

Theo and Ben also threw tons of money at players. In a period of months Ben spent over $400 million on new contracts.

 

As SK pointed out, he spent money on the top FA at the time.

 

But, it's BCs fault they played well below their career norms.

 

Is DD going to catch as much heat if it happens again this year?

[cp176]

Absoutely! Ultimately it really doesn't matter I guess. It's like monopoly money to these guys. I give Ben and Theo tremendous credit for what they accomplished. I will always feel that Ben stepped out of his role when he took over for Theo. It is a difficult job. Even blessed with an abundance of cash, I could never have done it and would not have even wanted to try. I think that it takes a special person to recognize the problems and get the job done. There is a reason why Warren Buffet laughs when his friends ask him why he never owned a professional franchise. I don't think that he is interested in dealing with any fans. A lot more involved here I think than just throwing money at players. I wonder how many people here would have gotten excited if the Sox could have traded Ramirez, Sandoval, and Porcello for Price. Those 3 signings alone make the expensive signing of Price almost look like a bargain.

[SoxnCycles]

Throwing the most money or the most prospects at a player is not that difficult to do. I could do that.

 

Building the best farm system in baseball and winning a world series in the process - now we're talking. Theo and Ben only managed to win 3 World Series with their philosophy of building a franchise.

 

Come on Kimmi.

 

Slapping down 30 mil more than the other team in the bidding for Price takes real finesse!

[Bellhorn04]

As SK pointed out, he spent money on the top FA at the time.

 

But, it's BCs fault they played well below their career norms.

 

Is DD going to catch as much heat if it happens again this year?

 

Yes - probably more. The nicknames are already in place - DUMBrowski etc.

[SoxnCycles]

Yes - probably more. The nicknames are already in place - DUMBrowski etc.

 

Should be an interesting season.

[a700hitter]

Theo and Ben also threw tons of money at players. In a period of months Ben spent over $400 million on new contracts.

And it was stupid money spent by Ben.

 

Theo's spending was just as big as Ben's, but the results,while not great, we're not as bad as Ben's flops. It was also easy to overlook since his spending came in the offseason before winning a championship. In that offseason, he spent $220 million on Dice K, Julio Lugosi and J.D. Drew. Btw, he overshot the market for Dice K spectacularly on his posting fee. As kimmi says, I could have done that.

[cp176]

Come on Kimmi.

 

Slapping down 30 mil more than the other team in the bidding for Price takes real finesse!

 

Nothing to it. Anyone could do that job. Just like teaching and coaching. At least that is what I heard from some people.

[a700hitter]

Will Middlebrooks has been non tendered by the Padres. Maybe they will go for the Panda for Shields swap.

[Bellhorn04]

And it was stupid money spent by Ben.

 

Theo's spending was just as big as Ben's, but the results,while not great, we're not as bad as Ben's flops. It was also easy to overlook since his spending came in the offseason before winning a championship. In that offseason, he spent $220 million on Dice K, Julio Lugosi and J.D. Drew. Btw, he overshot the market for Dice K spectacularly on his posting fee. As kimmi says, I could have done that.

 

Theo also overshot the market for Crawford.

[SoxnCycles]

Nothing to it. Anyone could do that job. Just like teaching and coaching. At least that is what I heard from some people.

 

Anyone could've made that particular deal, not the job in general.

 

Is there a point to the rest of your post?

[a700hitter]

Theo also overshot the market for Crawford.

By $20-25 million. If he had been the Carl Crawford that he was in Tampa no one would have cared, but even so over-shooting the market so dramatically was no great accomplishment.

[cp176]

Anyone could've made that particular deal, not the job in general.

 

Is there a point to the rest of your post?

 

yes - In a way I guess there is a point. In my opinion, you can't look at any person's job in an isolated manner like this. I could sign a political pardon but I don't think that I could be President. Just the whole concept of looking at a person and the job they do in a very singular way I guess. Once again, I won't be criticizing the overall job that Ben Cherington did. I could not have done his job even if it meant just throwing $ around. I don't really like to spend my own. I'm not speaking for anyone else here but I am happy with the direction we are heading in now.

[SoxnCycles]

yes - In a way I guess there is a point. In my opinion, you can't look at any person's job in an isolated manner like this. I could sign a political pardon but I don't think that I could be President. Just the whole concept of looking at a person and the job they do in a very singular way I guess. Once again, I won't be criticizing the overall job that Ben Cherington did. I could not have done his job even if it meant just throwing $ around. I don't really like to spend my own. I'm not speaking for anyone else here but I am happy with the direction we are heading in now.

 

None on us have any idea of what it takes to become a MLB GM, in spite of all the "I know they were thinking this..." fantasies that get posted here.

 

IMO Dombrowski has overpaid on 2 out of the 3 deals he's made so far.

Doesn't mean I think he's a bad GM.

He's got a couple of years to prove to me he can do more than throw money and prospects around.

 

And just wanted to know if you wanted to get more specific about "what I heard from some people".

But, if passive-aggressive is your thing, have at it.

[cp176]

None on us have any idea of what it takes to become a MLB GM, in spite of all the "I know they were thinking this..." fantasies that get posted here.

 

IMO Dombrowski has overpaid on 2 out of the 3 deals he's made so far.

Doesn't mean I think he's a bad GM.

He's got a couple of years to prove to me he can do more than throw money and prospects around.

 

And just wanted to know if you wanted to get more specific about "what I heard from some people".

But, if passive-aggressive is your thing, have at it.

 

 

Great post except for that passive-aggresssive stuff at the end. I actually agree with your Dombrowski points. As for your point about me being passive-aggressive - could be a little I guess. On the internet, on a forum board, I might hint around at my true feelings as opposed to actually expressing myself the way I would if I was looking at a person in the face. My guess is that it is not all that unusual. Hey - It is all good right?

[Spudboy]

Will Middlebrooks has been non tendered by the Padres. Maybe they will go for the Panda for Shields swap.

 

 

I wonder how Jenny will like Japan?

[jd98]

Cherington spent more money last year than Dombrowski has this year, and it's not like there weren't any top SP available last year. And the rotation was an even more dire need last year. So Cherington desperately needs pitching and he signs the 2 most expensive hitters, 1 of which isn't a much above average hitter, and the other a career SS/3B that he has to move to OF because of signing Panda, even though there were already about 6 other OF's on the team. Then he fills out the pitching with mediocre to bad pitchers, and gives one of them an unnecessary 4/$82m extension.

 

Dombrowski still needs pitching because of what Cherington just did and he acquires one of the best SP in the game currently, and one of the best RP ever. If it was so easy, then Cherington should have done it last year.

[a700hitter]

Meanwhile, the Padres “continue to push” righty James Shields in trade talks, Olney tweets. Shields will soon turn 34, is coming off of an underwhelming campaign, and is owed $65MM over the next three seasons (including a 2019 option buyout) under his back-loaded deal. Those considerations suggest that San Diego may need to sweeten the pot (with young talent or cash) to find a taker for the contract, but Shields is hardly immovable. To the contrary, he’s still quite a useful pitcher: his 2015 effort did nothing to disturb his record of durability and he actually put up career highs in swinging strike rate (12.4%) and strikeout rate (9.6 K/9).

Shields for Panda could be promising, especially since the Padres have non-tendered Middlebrooks.

[a700hitter]

Cliff Lee Intends To Pitch In 2016

By Jeff Todd | December 3, 2015 at 12:35pm CST

 

Veteran free agent starter Cliff Lee has been cleared by doctors to begin working his way back to the hill, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports on Twitter. Lee has already begun throwing and intends to pitch in 2016 so long as he can find the right opportunity.

 

There figures to be no shortage of interest in the one-time ace. Clubs pay good money for the right to take risks on injured players all the time, but rarely is there as much upside as comes with Lee.

 

True, Lee is already 37 years of age and is looking to return after a lengthy rehab from a partially torn flexor tendon. But he’s also thrown at an exceedingly high level as recently as 2014. Though he only put up a 3.65 earned run average in his 81 1/3 innings that year, Lee carried a 6.00 K:BB rate and drew ratings from metrics that valued his effort in the 3.00 earned-per-nine range.

 

Of course, Lee has also shown much more prior to that season. He racked up over 220 frames per season over 2011 through 2013, working to a cumulative 2.80 ERA in that span while striking out a batter per inning and walking less than one-and-a-half per nine.

 

It goes without saying that Lee’s past success guarantees nothing moving forward. He might re-injure his arm. Or he might have reduced velocity, movement, and/or command. But even a lesser version of Lee would likely be a productive big league asset, and there’s hope of much more. Assuming he continues on track to throw in 2016, Lee will be a fascinating player to watch on the market.

This is interesting.

[jacksonianmarch]

Maybe Jenny goes into porn?

[Spudboy]

Maybe Jenny goes into porn?

 

Somebody needs to be the bread winner!

[Kimmi]

Maybe so.

 

Why rain on the parade?

 

I am not raining on the parade. I love the players that we have acquired. I am probably more optimistic about our team heading into 2016 than anyone else here. IMO, we are contenders even if no other moves are made.

 

As I've said before, our farm system is still mostly intact and we got our ace. The Sox can probably absorb the cost of one huge contract like Price's. Provided that Dombrowski does not gut our farm or hand out other large contracts, we are good to go.

 

On the whole, I like what Dombrowski has done this offseason. I'm just not ready to annoint him the greatest GM ever based on being able to land Price for $30 million more than the next highest offer. If Dombrowski had signed Price for $30 million less than the next highest offer, that might be a different story.

[Kimmi]

Theo and Ben also threw tons of money at players. In a period of months Ben spent over $400 million on new contracts.

 

Sure, and any GM could have done that also. Henry has never been cheap. Ben had money to spend, and he spent it. However, I am pretty sure that Ben was not given an open checkbook to sign an ace last offseason at any cost.

[Kimmi]

As SK pointed out, he spent money on the top FA at the time.

 

But, it's BCs fault they played well below their career norms.

 

Is DD going to catch as much heat if it happens again this year?

 

In 2014, our offense was horrible. Offense was one of our biggest needs during that offseason. Third base and left field were two of our biggest weaknesses. Panda was the best position player available last offseason and Hanley was the best middle of the order bat available last offseason.

 

With Henry's desire not to sign an aging pitcher to a large contract, that's the direction the team chose to go in. Those contracts did not work out last year, but fans should not be upset that Ben spent so much money on those players because it's not their money.

[Kimmi]

Yes - probably more. The nicknames are already in place - DUMBrowski etc.

 

And the funny part is, for all the flack that I've been getting for being critical of the Kimbrel trade and for shuddering at the Price contract, if Price and/or Kimbrel have a Hanley or Pablo like season this year, I would defend Dombrowski for making those moves.

 

I would like to point out, FTR, that I have not called Dombrowski any nicknames, nor have I called him stupid, incompetent, or anything along those lines. I like Dombrowski and happen to think he's a very good GM.

[Bellhorn04]

Sure, and any GM could have done that also. Henry has never been cheap. Ben had money to spend, and he spent it. However, I am pretty sure that Ben was not given an open checkbook to sign an ace last offseason at any cost.

 

Last offseason the focus was on offense, and somebody decided we didn't need an ace that much. We did end up committing $95 million to Porcello, and that was also considered throughout baseball to be an overpay.

 

This offseason the focus is back on pitching. In both offseasons, huge amounts of money have been doled out.

[Bellhorn04]

And the funny part is, for all the flack that I've been getting for being critical of the Kimbrel trade and for shuddering at the Price contract, if Price and/or Kimbrel have a Hanley or Pablo like season this year, I would defend Dombrowski for making those moves.

 

I would like to point out, FTR, that I have not called Dombrowski any nicknames, nor have I called him stupid, incompetent, or anything along those lines. I like Dombrowski and happen to think he's a very good GM.

 

Kimmi, I know all that. You always keep it classy.

[User Name]

And the funny part is, for all the flack that I've been getting for being critical of the Kimbrel trade and for shuddering at the Price contract, if Price and/or Kimbrel have a Hanley or Pablo like season this year, I would defend Dombrowski for making those moves.

 

I would like to point out, FTR, that I have not called Dombrowski any nicknames, nor have I called him stupid, incompetent, or anything along those lines. I like Dombrowski and happen to think he's a very good GM.

 

You forgot to say "ironically".

[Kimmi]

Nothing to it. Anyone could do that job. Just like teaching and coaching. At least that is what I heard from some people.

 

Nobody said anything about being able to do the job. I know I couldn't do the job, and have said many times that I don't know nearly as much as the GMs or managers do. That said, if Henry gave me an open checkbook and told me to sign an ace, I am pretty sure I could accomplish that.

 

In fairness to Dombrowski, we have no clue as to how much is going on behind the scenes. I'm sure (at least I hope) there was a lot of discussion about the short and long term benefits and ramifications about all of the moves that have been made so far.

[Kimmi]

By $20-25 million. If he had been the Carl Crawford that he was in Tampa no one would have cared, but even so over-shooting the market so dramatically was no great accomplishment.

 

The signing of free agents to huge contracts is no great accomplishment by any GM. How many times have people said that the Yankees buy their World Series? Theo's and Ben's great accomplishment comes in the form of building a franchise that will compete for the long haul.

[Kimmi]

Cherington spent more money last year than Dombrowski has this year, and it's not like there weren't any top SP available last year. And the rotation was an even more dire need last year. So Cherington desperately needs pitching and he signs the 2 most expensive hitters, 1 of which isn't a much above average hitter, and the other a career SS/3B that he has to move to OF because of signing Panda, even though there were already about 6 other OF's on the team. Then he fills out the pitching with mediocre to bad pitchers, and gives one of them an unnecessary 4/$82m extension.

 

Dombrowski still needs pitching because of what Cherington just did and he acquires one of the best SP in the game currently, and one of the best RP ever. If it was so easy, then Cherington should have done it last year.

 

Honestly, I don't think Cherington is a fan of handing out large contracts to aging pitchers either, but even if he were, he can only do what Henry allows him to do. It's not that Henry didn't allow Ben to spend money, it's that Henry didn't allow Ben to sign an older pitcher to a 5+ year contract.

 

And don't forget that we needed offensive help almost as much as we needed pitching help.