2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[Station 13]

So Taz, Koji, Kimbrel for the last three innings. Is Smith our next best relief other than a specialist? Saw that his 2015 was pretty good.

 

Let's see how he does in the East first, his K/9 is impressive. His road ERA was 2x his home last season.

[Bellhorn04]

Your entire position rests on an illusion or better said a delusion. It is based on the premise that all the bad moves were some one else's fault and the all the good ones weren't. Again, you can't escape the one irrefutable fact, the person in the best position and the only one whose opinion counts fired Ben.

 

Yes, it's a fact that Ben was fired. And I supported the decision.

 

But getting fired doesn't necessarily prove you're a bad GM. If it did, it would mean we hired a bad (de facto) GM to replace Ben.

[Kimmi]

Nobody will agree because Porcello was not a good deal....one could only call it that in the context of the horror of Hanley/Panda and toss Castillo in there for good measure. Porcello is about somewhere between $12-$15m worth of pitcher but the Sox are paying $20m per. Most ML players especially once they hit FA are overpaid at that point but you can only extend that logic so far. Extending it to the Porcello's of the world is a farce.

 

Go pay $20k for even $15k worth of a plain Jane, kind of the mundane car and see if you end up happy with that.

 

Without the advantage of hindsight, Porcello was a good deal. I'm thinking he is still going to end up being a good deal when all is said and done.

[Kimmi]

Your entire position rests on an illusion or better said a delusion. It is based on the premise that all the bad moves were some one else's fault and the all the good ones weren't. Again, you can't escape the one irrefutable fact, the person in the best position and the only one whose opinion counts fired Ben.

 

I've already listed some moves that are bad moves that I think are Ben moves.

 

FTR, the only moves I considered bad moves last offseason were signing Pablo and not signing Lester. I agreed with the Hanley move and I did not think his contract was a bad one.

 

GMs get fired for any number of reasons. By your reasoning, every GM that has ever been fired, including Dombrowski, is incompetent.

[Kimmi]

Yes, it's a fact that Ben was fired. And I supported the decision.

 

But getting fired doesn't necessarily prove you're a bad GM. If it did, it would mean we hired a bad (de facto) GM to replace Ben.

 

Thank you.

[Elktonnick]

I've already listed some moves that are bad moves that I think are Ben moves.

 

FTR, the only moves I considered bad moves last offseason were signing Pablo and not signing Lester. I agreed with the Hanley move and I did not think his contract was a bad one.

 

GMs get fired for any number of reasons. By your reasoning, every GM that has ever been fired, including Dombrowski, is incompetent.

 

Once again you show that your powers of deductive reasoning is flawed. First of all I never said Ben was totally incompetent but that he was promoted beyond his level of competency.

 

Cherrington got shitcanned because of two last place finishes in a row. By your own account Cherrington always had Larry as a buffer between him and the principle owner. Henry obviously never thought Cherrington was up to the job without some one between him and the principle owner. Dombrowski was to be that person to replace Larry.

 

Dombrowski's departure from Detroit was curious because it is clear it wasn't over competency but for other reasons. Whatever the reason after 14 years and leading the baseball operations in two major league organizations and now a third he is well regarded for his competency.

[Elktonnick]

Yes, it's a fact that Ben was fired. And I supported the decision.

 

But getting fired doesn't necessarily prove you're a bad GM. If it did, it would mean we hired a bad (de facto) GM to replace Ben.

 

You like Kimmi assume that all firings are equal and only caused by one thing. Ben always had someone looking over his shoulder in Boston. There was Larry between Ben and Henry. Henry obviously didn't think Ben could do the job without an older and wiser mentor. So he hired Dombrowski. Ben got pissed at being demoted. He correctly saw that his being pushed aside as a firing and left. Ben simply hasn't demonstrated to ownership that he has all the requisite competencies do the top baseball operations job without some more experienced baseball guy over him.

[Bellhorn04]

You like Kimmi assume that all firings are equal and only caused by one thing.

 

Nope, I assume no such thing. Neither does Kimmi - in fact, just a few posts above she said 'GM's get fired for any number for reasons'.

[Elktonnick]

Nope, I assume no such thing. Neither does Kimmi - in fact, just a few posts above she said 'GM's get fired for any number for reasons'.

 

By your post you were trying to ascribe that opinion to me inferring that both the Dombrowski and Cherrington dismissals were congruent. If one doesn't hold that opinion then it is somewhat disingenuous to erroneously ascribe it to another

 

Ben was fired for a lack of competence. Specifically, his employer was not of the opinion that Cherrington was sufficiently competent to do the job without an experienced executive with superior baseball operational skills overseeing him. Dombrowski wasn't let go for that reason. Dombrowski was however hired for that reason. To date Cherrington is not. Furthermore one can reasonably speculate if he ever will be. Until that day arrives one has ample justification to believe that baseball ownership is skeptical that Ben has the requisite competency to do the job that Dombrowski has.

[Spudboy]

Boring.

[a700hitter]

FTR, the only moves I considered bad moves last offseason were signing Pablo and not signing Lester.

But you understand the rationale in signing Pablo, so it is only a bad move in hindsight. Ben is not to blame, because it was a Larry move.

[Bellhorn04]

By your post you were trying to ascribe that opinion to me inferring that both the Dombrowski and Cherrington dismissals were congruent. If one doesn't hold that opinion then it is somewhat disingenuous to erroneously ascribe it to another.

 

I wasn't necessarily ascribing that to you. It was just a general observation. You're reading way too much into it.

[jung]

Not that it really matters but I don't think JH ever had much confidence in BC. He had and then lost confidence in Larry and when Larry went down, he dragged BC down with him. Although they offered to keep BC on, staying would have IMO been a bad career move for BC and he was at least smart enough to know it.

 

Really thinking about it, Theo probably just ran out of patience with JH. Theo probably wanted more power and authority than JH was willing to give to him. He finally gave up and went elsewhere.

[Elktonnick]

I wasn't necessarily ascribing that to you. It was just a general observation. You're reading way too much into it.

 

Enough said then.

[Elktonnick]

Not that it really matters but I don't think JH ever had much confidence in BC. He had and then lost confidence in Larry and when Larry went down, he dragged BC down with him. Although they offered to keep BC on, staying would have IMO been a bad career move for BC and he was at least smart enough to know it.

 

Really thinking about it, Theo probably just ran out of patience with JH. Theo probably wanted more power and authority than JH was willing to give to him. He finally gave up and went elsewhere.

 

I think JH's relationship with Larry was far more complex and involved then it was with Ben. Larry Lucchino was a protege of Edward Bennett Williams who in his day was one of Washington's premier lawyers. People on this board may deprecate Lucchino but he has tremendous political skills and savy which he obviously got from his mentor the late EBW. Larry may be the only sports executive with a World Series ring, a Super Bowl ring and a Final Four watch, as he played basketball at Princeton with Bill Bradley in 1964-65.

[User Name]

Boring.

 

It was boring 1,000 posts ago. What it is now doesn't even have a word in the English language.

[mvp 78]

You know, I really think Daniel Bard should not have been made a starter.

[Elktonnick]

You know, I really think Daniel Bard should not have been made a starter.

 

WE know Bard wanted to become one. Nevertheless the question is was that Ben's decision or did Larry force Ben to do it.

[mvp 78]

It was Bard's decision. There's more money to be made as a mediocre starter than a very good reliever.

[Kimmi]

Once again you show that your powers of deductive reasoning is flawed. First of all I never said Ben was totally incompetent but that he was promoted beyond his level of competency.

 

Cherrington got shitcanned because of two last place finishes in a row. By your own account Cherrington always had Larry as a buffer between him and the principle owner. Henry obviously never thought Cherrington was up to the job without some one between him and the principle owner. Dombrowski was to be that person to replace Larry.

 

Dombrowski's departure from Detroit was curious because it is clear it wasn't over competency but for other reasons. Whatever the reason after 14 years and leading the baseball operations in two major league organizations and now a third he is well regarded for his competency.

 

You lost me at "your powers of deductive reasoning is flawed". I have a lot of shortcomings, but my deductive reasoning ability is not one of them.

[a700hitter]

You lost me at "your powers of deductive reasoning is flawed". I have a lot of shortcomings, but my deductive reasoning ability is not one of them.

You should get a second opinion.

[Kimmi]

Boring.

 

What is boring is your need to keep telling me how boring I am.

 

It's like they say with the tv. If you don't like the show, change the channel.

[a700hitter]

Don't be so sensitive. Spud and I are good buddies here and on FB and he yawns at me too every so often. He's a good barometer to let us know when we are getting tedious. At least he doesn't look to shut down the discussion like others do.

[Kimmi]

But you understand the rationale in signing Pablo, so it is only a bad move in hindsight. Ben is not to blame, because it was a Larry move.

 

Yes, I have the ability to see both sides of things, not only my point of view.

 

It's a gift.

 

Despite the rationale behind signing Pablo, the contract was bad before it happened, due to its length and the likelihood of Pablo declining towards the end of it.

[a700hitter]

Yes, I have the ability to see both sides of things, not only my point of view.

 

It's a gift.

 

Despite the rationale behind signing Pablo, the contract was bad before it happened, due to its length and the likelihood of Pablo declining towards the end of it.

And it was definitely a Larry move.

[Kimmi]

It was boring 1,000 posts ago. What it is now doesn't even have a word in the English language.

 

Et tu, Brute?

[a700hitter]

Yes, I have the ability to see both sides of things, not only my point of view.

 

It's a gift.

 

Despite the rationale behind signing Pablo, the contract was bad before it happened, due to its length and the likelihood of Pablo declining towards the end of it.

There really is no other side to Pablo in a Red Sox uniform. It has been pure stink.

[Kimmi]

WE know Bard wanted to become one. Nevertheless the question is was that Ben's decision or did Larry force Ben to do it.

 

IMO, that was a Ben decision.

[Kimmi]

Don't be so sensitive. Spud and I are good buddies here and on FB and he yawns at me too every so often. He's a good barometer to let us know when we are getting tedious. At least he doesn't look to shut down the discussion like others do.

 

I'm not sensitive. I'm just telling it like it is. If he or anyone else doesn't like the conversation, they don't have to read it.

[User Name]

Et tu, Brute?

 

Well done.