2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[a700hitter]

The 2015 team is dead. It crashed and burned in spectacular fashion. This is without a doubt the earliest that a hot stove thread has been started. The FO had thrown in the towel on the 2015 season, so their focus is on 2016 and should ours.

[Kimmi]

The 2015 team is dead. It crashed and burned in spectacular fashion. This is without a doubt the earliest that a hot stove thread has been started. The FO had thrown in the towel on the 2015 season, so their focus is on 2016 and should ours.

 

The FO should more or less leave the offense as is, with the exception of finding a first baseman. Add two starting pitchers and a few middle BP arms. Shouldn't be too difficult to get this team back into contention next season.

 

Is there a reason why the Hot Stove thread is in the Game Thread section?

[Bellhorn04]

The more I think about it the more I think we have to trade Hanley for whatever we can, eating a pile of money, obviously. If we don't, his fielding will kill us again next year.

[iortiz]

The FO should more or less leave the offense as is, with the exception of finding a first baseman. Add two starting pitchers and a few middle BP arms. Shouldn't be too difficult to get this team back into contention next season.

 

Is there a reason why the Hot Stove thread is in the Game Thread section?

 

Totally agree. Now the question is, which arms would be the right for us?

[iortiz]

The more I think about it the more I think we have to trade Hanley for whatever we can, eating a pile of money, obviously. If we don't, his fielding will kill us again next year.

 

Why not moving him to first?

[a700hitter]

 

Is there a reason why the Hot Stove thread is in the Game Thread section?

yes, there is a reason. I pulled a Cherington.

 

Mods, please move this to the Red Sox forum.

[Bellhorn04]

Why not moving him to first?

 

He'll kill us at first too. And reportedly doesn't want to play there. We have to get rid of him.

[a700hitter]

He'll kill us at first too. And reportedly doesn't want to play there. We have to get rid of him.

 

We have almost 50 games left in a lost season. We have an opportunity to see what he can do before entering the post season. He can't hurt us now. They should try it.

[Bellhorn04]

We have almost 50 games left in a lost season. We have an opportunity to see what he can do before entering the post season. He can't hurt us now. They should try it.

 

Yes, they should. But it doesn't seem to be the plan.

[a700hitter]

Yes, they should. But it doesn't seem to be the plan.

 

I' d have to guess that he is refusing, because the team has nothing to lose over the next 2 months.

[iortiz]

I' d have to guess that he is refusing, because the team has nothing to lose over the next 2 months.

 

These are the kind of things that this org should do/prove. Not sure what in the hell is the plan moving forward. At least they should take something of this disaster. The more I see this FO, the more I think we need to rebuild this as soon as possible, and LL is not enough.

[a700hitter]

These are the kind of things that this org should do/prove. Not sure what in the hell is the plan moving forward. At least they should take something of this disaster. The more I see this FO, the more I think we need to rebuild this as soon as possible, and LL is not enough.

 

They have an opportunity to experiment without any repercussions, but they are waiting and waiting and rolling with the same garbage that got us to this point.

[Kimmi]

yes, there is a reason. I pulled a Cherington.

 

Mods, please move this to the Red Sox forum.

 

Nicely done. LOL

[waltr]

Because a) he doesn't want to play 1b

if he is your first baseman, your other three infielders become worse. You don't rreally expect him to make the "nice" play , do you?

[cp176]

they signed the wrong guys. Stats looked good but a lot more to it than that. they need to be surrounded by high performing professionals which they are not.

[sk7326]

The high performing professionals thing is a bit of a canard. If Sandoval were not a pro, somehow he would not have been a key guy on a few title teams. That analysis is often bent to fit narrative.

 

What we have seen so far from the "string" is that:

 

- There is clearly some there there with Henry Owens - nobody putting him in the Cy Young voting, but there is a foundation there. Owens and Rodriguez are a good place to start. I'd say keep Buchholz - for all the injury warts he is so cheap relative to performance when healthy that it makes sense.

 

- The rotation does not need the sledgehammer - seriously. You take the kiddos, Porcello, Miley and Wright and that is a rotation which can work, of course given Porcello straightens his issues out. Whether or not he is a 4 WAR pitcher is in debate, but that he is better than replacement level shouldn't be.

 

- There are more reasons to keep Cherington than to dump him - and if the front office stops worrying about NESN ratings and just let the baseball operation flow, things will go better. The parts of the org which is outside of the WEEI/NESN purview has been productive.

 

- Not quite the same for Farrell. He has not been the tactical disaster that a Matheny, Matt Williams, Brad Ausmus or Ned Yost have been to varying degrees. But he has not created value the way that Bochy, Francona, Girardi etc do, either tactically or developmentally. And this year's system wide underperformance has to reflect on him first. Fortunately with the increasing use of analytics and such, finding managers with both analytic and ex-baller cred is not as hard as it used to be. Obviously previous managing is a must in whatever context. (doesn't mean big league managing necessarily - but actually doing the job)

 

- 1B is the biggest question in terms of upgrades. You can do it with clever platooning or just aiming high for a guy, but clearly they need more from an offensive position than they have been getting.

 

- Now a good corner bat would be nice, but there is some merit in just riding out Castillo and seeing where it ends up. His performance the next two months is important, if nothing else to keep him in play as an asset. (if a team thinks he can start, he is priced very very well)

 

The path to where the team wants to be is not that daunting. Some good targeted moves (and a managerial change) and it might fly.

[Behindenemylines]

Watched a lot of $panks and Jays over the weekend. Donaldson should have been the 3B we went after last off season. The Sox could have given the A's a lot more then the Jays did. For 2016 the Sox have a lot of work to do. 1) Top of the rotation starter 2) Rebuild the bullpen 3) Figure out where Ramirez will play in 2016 4) If no one emerges in the corner outfield spots these final two months it may be a need (It would be nice if Castillo or Bradley emerged) 4) I think 3B will be Sandoval or Ramirez (No way they can move both so one of them will be there)

[cp176]

The high performing professionals thing is a bit of a canard. If Sandoval were not a pro, somehow he would not have been a key guy on a few title teams. That analysis is often bent to fit narrative.

 

What we have seen so far from the "string" is that:

 

- There is clearly some there there with Henry Owens - nobody putting him in the Cy Young voting, but there is a foundation there. Owens and Rodriguez are a good place to start. I'd say keep Buchholz - for all the injury warts he is so cheap relative to performance when healthy that it makes sense.

 

- The rotation does not need the sledgehammer - seriously. You take the kiddos, Porcello, Miley and Wright and that is a rotation which can work, of course given Porcello straightens his issues out. Whether or not he is a 4 WAR pitcher is in debate, but that he is better than replacement level shouldn't be.

 

- There are more reasons to keep Cherington than to dump him - and if the front office stops worrying about NESN ratings and just let the baseball operation flow, things will go better. The parts of the org which is outside of the WEEI/NESN purview has been productive.

 

- Not quite the same for Farrell. He has not been the tactical disaster that a Matheny, Matt Williams, Brad Ausmus or Ned Yost have been to varying degrees. But he has not created value the way that Bochy, Francona, Girardi etc do, either tactically or developmentally. And this year's system wide underperformance has to reflect on him first. Fortunately with the increasing use of analytics and such, finding managers with both analytic and ex-baller cred is not as hard as it used to be. Obviously previous managing is a must in whatever context. (doesn't mean big league managing necessarily - but actually doing the job)

 

- 1B is the biggest question in terms of upgrades. You can do it with clever platooning or just aiming high for a guy, but clearly they need more from an offensive position than they have been getting.

 

- Now a good corner bat would be nice, but there is some merit in just riding out Castillo and seeing where it ends up. His performance the next two months is important, if nothing else to keep him in play as an asset. (if a team thinks he can start, he is priced very very well)

 

The path to where the team wants to be is not that daunting. Some good targeted moves (and a managerial change) and it might fly.

 

 

A canard - - really - glad I am just a simple man. People have been tying to make the game of baseball just a little bit more than it should be these days. It is not that complicated. Just so you know - I consider Sandoval and Ramirez both to be players who are professionals but not leaders by any stretch of the imagination. Surround them with good players and they probably will succeed. I do not believe that this belief is all that unusual at all. As a matter of fact, most people realized that there was a great risk involved particularly with the Ramirez signing. I understood the signing of Sandoval. I did not understand at all the Ramirez signing and still believe that this team will be held back to a certain extent until he is either gone or dhing.

[a700hitter]

The rotation does not need the sledgehammer - seriously. You take the kiddos, Porcello, Miley and Wright and that is a rotation which can work, of course given Porcello straightens his issues out. Whether or not he is a 4 WAR pitcher is in debate, but that he is better than replacement level shouldn't be.

 

I could not disagree more wholeheartedly. If next season we break camp with a rotation of Porcello, Miley, Wright and two rookie kids, I will make summer plans to travel to Europe, because the Red Sox will be going for the three-peat of last place. Two rookies in a rotation is usually enough to doom a team, but to keep the other three as the experienced part of the rotation will assure last place,

[Jasonbay44]

I could not disagree more wholeheartedly. If next season we break camp with a rotation of Porcello, Miley, Wright and two rookie kids, I will make summer plans to travel to Europe, because the Red Sox will be going for the three-peat of last place. Two rookies in a rotation is usually enough to doom a team, but to keep the other three as the experienced part of the rotation will assure last place,

Completely agree. This team needs an ace, if they roll with that rotation, we will be awful again next year.

[BigPapi]

The absolute worst rotation that should be out there next year is: a very good free agent or traded pitcher, buchhlolz, porcello, Eduardo Rodriguez, and Henry Owens. Miley can be used intially out of the pen as a long man and can fill a spot later on if anyone in the rotation gets injured or sucks.

[iortiz]

I could not disagree more wholeheartedly. If next season we break camp with a rotation of Porcello, Miley, Wright and two rookie kids, I will make summer plans to travel to Europe, because the Red Sox will be going for the three-peat of last place. Two rookies in a rotation is usually enough to doom a team, but to keep the other three as the experienced part of the rotation will assure last place,

 

Porcello, Miley, Wright and 2 more kids? LOL!

 

Another last place.

[sk7326]

Porcello, Miley, Wright and 2 more kids? LOL!

 

Another last place.

 

I clearly forgot about Buchholz, and since the kids are Rodriguez and Owens ... that is not a terrible start. If they signed Cueto all the better, but the bleating about an ace as a cure all is misplaced.

[cp176]

I clearly forgot about Buchholz, and since the kids are Rodriguez and Owens ... that is not a terrible start. If they signed Cueto all the better, but the bleating about an ace as a cure all is misplaced.

 

 

I sincerely hope that pitching and defense become their priorities from here on in.

[iortiz]

I clearly forgot about Buchholz, and since the kids are Rodriguez and Owens ... that is not a terrible start. If they signed Cueto all the better, but the bleating about an ace as a cure all is misplaced.

 

Porcello and Miley are 4.5 ERA pitchers at best. Buch is DL resident. Owens has two solid starts but that's it, and while I like ERod, you do not build a rotation around him.

 

We need at very least two solid proven arms.

[sk7326]

Porcello and Miley are 4.5 ERA pitchers at best. Buch is DL resident. Owens has two solid starts but that's it, and while I like ERod, you do not build a rotation around him.

 

We need at very least two solid proven arms.

 

Miley you are closer to the truth. Porcello had a major falloff from his career at an age which does not make sense - there is a lot of fluke evidence (and a lot of poor coaching evidence) there.

[a700hitter]

I clearly forgot about Buchholz, and since the kids are Rodriguez and Owens ... that is not a terrible start. If they signed Cueto all the better, but the bleating about an ace as a cure all is misplaced.

Let's remove the word ace. There is a need for 2 top of the rotation starters. None of the pitchers mentioned fill that bill. Buch come the closest, but he is a half season hurler at best.

[a700hitter]

Miley you are closer to the truth. Porcello had a major falloff from his career at an age which does not make sense - there is a lot of fluke evidence (and a lot of poor coaching evidence) there.

There is absolutely no evidence that Porcello's performance was related to coaching except for message board rumors started by fans, and there is even less reason to believe that he will develop into something that he has never been in 7 full major league seasons-- a top of the rotation starter.

[sk7326]

There is absolutely no evidence that Porcello's performance was related to coaching except for message board rumors started by fans, and there is even less reason to believe that he will develop into something that he has never been in 7 full major league seasons-- a top of the rotation starter.

 

He was nearly 3 full wins worse than his "career level" - which is not something which happens to 26 year olds. Top, middle, bottom, front, rear, sides of the rotation. He did not have to be an ace to justify his contract. He had to be better than replacement level, which he has not been this season to even remotely qualify.

 

When talent did not perform to its capability consistently, across all areas of the game, it is completely justifiable (heck, sensible) to blame the coaching staff. There is a lack of "talent related" reasons for many of the failures. (did the bat speed go away collectively? Did the pitching staff all take stupid pills to underperform career norms despite being in their 20s?)

[a700hitter]

He was nearly 3 full wins worse than his "career level" - which is not something which happens to 26 year olds. Top, middle, bottom, front, rear, sides of the rotation. He did not have to be an ace to justify his contract. He had to be better than replacement level, which he has not been this season to even remotely qualify.

 

When talent did not perform to its capability consistently, across all areas of the game, it is completely justifiable (heck, sensible) to blame the coaching staff. There is a lack of "talent related" reasons for many of the failures. (did the bat speed go away collectively? Did the pitching staff all take stupid pills to underperform career norms despite being in their 20s?)

 

They fired the pitching coach early on. It hasn't really helped. The pitching has been consistently bad. Maybe it is the pitching. Do you feel confident that a 3rd pitching coach will help propel Porcello to something he has never been in 7 full major league seasons -- a top of the rotation starter? I don't. For all the talk about coming to the Red Sox helping improve him, it never made sense since he was coming to a park that was more favorable to hitters.