David Ortiz, 1B

[SoxnCycles]

The Yankees, like us, have done better when they had a fulltime DH raking, like Matsui in 2009.

 

I want a DH who's hitting, not one who's resting.

 

Interesting...

 

I wonder if there's a subtle "it's my day off" thing going on with some rotating DH's.

[SCM33]

Sincere question, since I'm fairly new here. Are you a Cubs fan?

 

The Allure of the Cubs has been overwhelming.

 

 

I am first and foremost a Redsox fan......have been for 32 years.

 

I really dislike the Redsox FO. The championships have been nice, but the periods in between them are really brutal. I also cant stand how they treat people that leave the organization.

 

I took an interest in the Cubs in the offseason. Cubs fans are alot like us pre 2004. When they hired Theo, traded for Rizzo and signed Lester......it is hard not to root for them. They are underdogs and 3 major components of their franchise were once part of ours.

[sk7326]

I am first and foremost a Redsox fan......have been for 32 years.

 

I really dislike the Redsox FO. The championships have been nice, but the periods in between them are really brutal. I also cant stand how they treat people that leave the organization.

 

I took an interest in the Cubs in the offseason. Cubs fans are alot like us pre 2004. When they hired Theo, traded for Rizzo and signed Lester......it is hard not to root for them. They are underdogs and 3 major components of their franchise were once part of ours.

 

I needed the chuckle.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I think this is a fallacy.

 

The Sox have won 3 World Series with Ortiz as fulltime DH.

 

The Yankees have tried that rotating DH thing and gotten s*** production out of it. In 2013 they got a .583 OPS from DH. In 2014 they got a .662.

Something something correlation causation

[Bellhorn04]

Something something correlation causation

 

Let me put it this way: is there any historical evidence whatsoever of any team's performance benefiting from having a rotating DH?

[Kimmi]

I am first and foremost a Redsox fan......have been for 32 years.

 

I really dislike the Redsox FO. The championships have been nice, but the periods in between them are really brutal. I also cant stand how they treat people that leave the organization.

 

I took an interest in the Cubs in the offseason. Cubs fans are alot like us pre 2004. When they hired Theo, traded for Rizzo and signed Lester......it is hard not to root for them. They are underdogs and 3 major components of their franchise were once part of ours.

 

I am not a Lucchino fan, but I really don't have anything against Ben. I think he gets a lot of undeserved criticism. That said, Ben is no Theo.

 

I have had an interest in the Cubs since Theo went there, though I don't follow them that closely.

 

Honestly, I find it a little odd that you would choose a Cubs avatar over a Red Sox one.

[Kimmi]

I needed the chuckle.

 

Cubs fans and fans of most other teams would LOVE to have 3 championships in 10 years, regardless of how brutal the periods in between are.

[jacksonianmarch]

Ortiz doesn't like it because he doesn't want to get hurt and allow his escalators to expire. He has a point, though. EEI had a stat, the last time Ortiz played first base 3 times in a week, he ended up on the DL

[sk7326]

Cubs fans and fans of most other teams would LOVE to have 3 championships in 10 years, regardless of how brutal the periods in between are.

 

Between 2002 and 2011 the "brutal periods" were 8 winning seasons

2 heartbreaking losses in the LCS

2 sweeps in the LDS

2 playoff berths lost inside the last weekend of the season

 

I won't defend 2012 and 2014, but reports of brutality are very very exaggerated.

[Dojji]

Let me put it this way: is there any historical evidence whatsoever of any team's performance benefiting from having a rotating DH?

Nope. Whether you have a full time DH or not is based entirely on team composition. If you have a guy who benefits from DHing full time you DH him, if you don't, you make it up as you go along, it's just that simple.

 

Not liking full time DH's is a leftover prejudice from the Pre-DH era where that wasn't considered a position.

 

That said playing Ortiz as 1B full time is an excellent idea if you don't mind losing him to injury in about 3 weeks. The guy's body just doesn't have that in him anymore. He's at a stage of his career where he would be DHing most nights even if he'd been a full time 1B prior. at 39 and a guy as big as that, especially where he hasn't been conditioned to do it in the years leading up, that strikes me as a spectacularly risky idea. Especially since as mediocre a year as he's been having we NEED his bat out there.

 

Look what happened to Ryan Howard, a very similar guy physically, when he played 1B everyday. Look what happened to big guy Mo Vaughn. Both were no longer effective big league players by their mid 30's. Frank Thomas needed to switch to full time DHing before he even hit 30. Ortiz is in his late 30's. Asking him to bear the added physical burden of playing a defensive position is a bad idea.

[Dojji]

Gotta love the guy, but he does stuff that really pisses me off.

 

If I was the coach and heard he said that.........I'd yell to him and tell him he is taking grounders during practice at 1st base all day this week.

 

That would be a good thing to do if you were working with college kids. It might work with David Ortiz if the year was 2005. It's a horrible horrible idea to do things like that with a veteran in his last years on the team where the major objective is just to keep the guy in the field.

 

One thing you cannot fault Ortiz on is his will to win. DH or no, that man has been a central cog in every world series this team has won since we've been alive, and for a few other deep playoff runs as well So him saying that 1B isn't in him isn't someone shirking a job he can do. Reacting as if he's some snot nosed college kid saying "no, don' wanna" is delusional.

[SoxnCycles]

That would be a good thing to do if you were working with college kids. It might work with David Ortiz if the year was 2005. It's a horrible horrible idea to do things like that with a veteran in his last years on the team where the major objective is just to keep the guy in the field.

 

One thing you cannot fault Ortiz on is his will to win. DH or no, that man has been a central cog in every world series this team has won since we've been alive, and for a few other deep playoff runs as well So him saying that 1B isn't in him isn't someone shirking a job he can do. Reacting as if he's some snot nosed college kid saying "no, don' wanna" is delusional.

 

 

This ^

[Bellhorn04]

Nope. Whether you have a full time DH or not is based entirely on team composition. If you have a guy who benefits from DHing full time you DH him, if you don't, you make it up as you go along, it's just that simple.

 

Not liking full time DH's is a leftover prejudice from the Pre-DH era where that wasn't considered a position.

 

That said playing Ortiz as 1B full time is an excellent idea if you don't mind losing him to injury in about 3 weeks. The guy's body just doesn't have that in him anymore. He's at a stage of his career where he would be DHing most nights even if he'd been a full time 1B prior. at 39 and a guy as big as that, especially where he hasn't been conditioned to do it in the years leading up, that strikes me as a spectacularly risky idea. Especially since as mediocre a year as he's been having we NEED his bat out there.

 

Look what happened to Ryan Howard, a very similar guy physically, when he played 1B everyday. Look what happened to big guy Mo Vaughn. Both were no longer effective big league players by their mid 30's. Frank Thomas needed to switch to full time DHing before he even hit 30. Ortiz is in his late 30's. Asking him to bear the added physical burden of playing a defensive position is a bad idea.

 

Nice post Dojji.

[a700hitter]

Ortiz at 39 yrs old and never a full time player should not be run out to 1B more than twice a week.

[Spudboy]

Nope. Whether you have a full time DH or not is based entirely on team composition. If you have a guy who benefits from DHing full time you DH him, if you don't, you make it up as you go along, it's just that simple.

 

Not liking full time DH's is a leftover prejudice from the Pre-DH era where that wasn't considered a position.

 

That said playing Ortiz as 1B full time is an excellent idea if you don't mind losing him to injury in about 3 weeks. The guy's body just doesn't have that in him anymore. He's at a stage of his career where he would be DHing most nights even if he'd been a full time 1B prior. at 39 and a guy as big as that, especially where he hasn't been conditioned to do it in the years leading up, that strikes me as a spectacularly risky idea. Especially since as mediocre a year as he's been having we NEED his bat out there.

 

Look what happened to Ryan Howard, a very similar guy physically, when he played 1B everyday. Look what happened to big guy Mo Vaughn. Both were no longer effective big league players by their mid 30's. Frank Thomas needed to switch to full time DHing before he even hit 30. Ortiz is in his late 30's. Asking him to bear the added physical burden of playing a defensive position is a bad idea.

 

Great post.

[Dojji]

Have we considered trying Hanley at 1B by the way? We know he can handle third base and a lot of third basemen successfully transition to first. Seems to me that if you're really concerned about the defense, why not cut out the middleman?

[sk7326]

Have we considered trying Hanley at 1B by the way? We know he can handle third base and a lot of third basemen successfully transition to first. Seems to me that if you're really concerned about the defense, why not cut out the middleman?

 

That could work ... but as long as De Aza has not turned into a pumpkin, the Ortiz at 1B alignment gives them probably their most complete group out there between offense and defense. I don't expect De Aza to last - but it has been nice while it has.

[SoxHop]

That would be a good thing to do if you were working with college kids. It might work with David Ortiz if the year was 2005. It's a horrible horrible idea to do things like that with a veteran in his last years on the team where the major objective is just to keep the guy in the field.

 

One thing you cannot fault Ortiz on is his will to win. DH or no, that man has been a central cog in every world series this team has won since we've been alive, and for a few other deep playoff runs as well So him saying that 1B isn't in him isn't someone shirking a job he can do. Reacting as if he's some snot nosed college kid saying "no, don' wanna" is delusional.

 

OK OK .... I'm convinced.

 

Can't say that I agree Papi does everything for the team to win. He has his "me first" moments sometimes.

 

Also can't say that I agree 38 is too old to play first. I guess it depends on body type and if you have kept yourself in shape, which he hasn't. And that's probably a lot due to not being asked to play first for extended periods of time in many years. I get it though, he's Papi and he hits and hits well.

 

Yea, placing him in a position where there is a chance he could get hurt is a bad idea. I guess my eyes just lit up with the thought of getting Hanley out of left and getting Napoli out of the batters box.

[sk7326]

OK OK .... I'm convinced.

 

Can't say that I agree Papi does everything for the team to win. He has his "me first" moments sometimes.

 

Also can't say that I agree 38 is too old to play first. I guess it depends on body type and if you have kept yourself in shape, which he hasn't. And that's probably a lot due to not being asked to play first for extended periods of time in many years. I get it though, he's Papi and he hits and hits well.

 

Yea, placing him in a position where there is a chance he could get hurt is a bad idea. I guess my eyes just lit up with the thought of getting Hanley out of left and getting Napoli out of the batters box.

 

The "me" vs "team" is a bit hard to splice here. When he is successful the team is - I don't think he has held the team hostage in any way on stuff like that.

[SoxnCycles]

The "me" vs "team" is a bit hard to splice here. When he is successful the team is - I don't think he has held the team hostage in any way on stuff like that.

 

That's the nature of baseball.

It's individual accomplishments wrapped up in a team sport.

 

Keeping Ortiz healthy is a selfish act that benefits the Sox.

 

Fans are like females; they say they want honesty, but just try giving it to them on a daily basis!

[SoxnCycles]

OK OK .... I'm convinced.

 

Can't say that I agree Papi does everything for the team to win. He has his "me first" moments sometimes.

 

Also can't say that I agree 38 is too old to play first. I guess it depends on body type and if you have kept yourself in shape, which he hasn't. And that's probably a lot due to not being asked to play first for extended periods of time in many years. I get it though, he's Papi and he hits and hits well.

 

Yea, placing him in a position where there is a chance he could get hurt is a bad idea. I guess my eyes just lit up with the thought of getting Hanley out of left and getting Napoli out of the batters box.

 

It's not just a question of body type.

Ortiz has had a history of lower leg issues.

Sure, he could re injure himself just DHing, but you're doubling the chances of an injury by playing him at 1st.

 

As for his age, how many players his age have switched from DH to a position?

Guys his age move from a position to DH, not the other way around.

[SoxHop]

It's not just a question of body type.

Ortiz has had a history of lower leg issues.

Sure, he could re injure himself just DHing, but you're doubling the chances of an injury by playing him at 1st.

 

As for his age, how many players his age have switched from DH to a position?

Guys his age move from a position to DH, not the other way around.

 

I get it, I do. I didn't think Ortiz would go the entire half the season there, I did mention Holt playing first too.

 

Let me flip this around though. Do you think Papi should never play first base due to these issues?

 

How about if we were to play a playoff game? Personally I think Papi at first right now with the team as it is, with him being at first is when the team is the strongest.

[sk7326]

I get it, I do. I didn't think Ortiz would go the entire half the season there, I did mention Holt playing first too.

 

Let me flip this around though. Do you think Papi should never play first base due to these issues?

 

How about if we were to play a playoff game? Personally I think Papi at first right now with the team as it is, with him being at first is when the team is the strongest.

 

We have encountered those situations, and he HAS played first. So the question kind of answers itself. As long as De Aza is playing well, this alignment makes sense ...

[Kimmi]

Between 2002 and 2011 the "brutal periods" were 8 winning seasons

2 heartbreaking losses in the LCS

2 sweeps in the LDS

2 playoff berths lost inside the last weekend of the season

 

I won't defend 2012 and 2014, but reports of brutality are very very exaggerated.

 

They are very exaggerated indeed. No one likes to finish in last place, but I don't think the FO did a poor job in either of those offseasons. The talent was there for the team to contend. Things just didn't go according to plan. It might be a different story if I didn't think the FO was trying to contend every year, but I honestly believe that they are.

 

Either way, my Reds fans neighbors would be thrilled to have a championship sandwiched in between two last place finishes. I think fans of most teams would be.

[Kimmi]

Nope. Whether you have a full time DH or not is based entirely on team composition. If you have a guy who benefits from DHing full time you DH him, if you don't, you make it up as you go along, it's just that simple.

 

Not liking full time DH's is a leftover prejudice from the Pre-DH era where that wasn't considered a position.

 

That said playing Ortiz as 1B full time is an excellent idea if you don't mind losing him to injury in about 3 weeks. The guy's body just doesn't have that in him anymore. He's at a stage of his career where he would be DHing most nights even if he'd been a full time 1B prior. at 39 and a guy as big as that, especially where he hasn't been conditioned to do it in the years leading up, that strikes me as a spectacularly risky idea. Especially since as mediocre a year as he's been having we NEED his bat out there.

 

Look what happened to Ryan Howard, a very similar guy physically, when he played 1B everyday. Look what happened to big guy Mo Vaughn. Both were no longer effective big league players by their mid 30's. Frank Thomas needed to switch to full time DHing before he even hit 30. Ortiz is in his late 30's. Asking him to bear the added physical burden of playing a defensive position is a bad idea.

 

Very nice post Dojii.

 

First base might be the one of the easiest positions to play, but that doesn't mean that it won't take its toll on a player physically. Add to that the fact that Papi is in his late 30s and his body is not used to the physical demands of playing the field everyday, asking him to play 1B regularly would likely be a recipe for disaster.

[Kimmi]

Have we considered trying Hanley at 1B by the way? We know he can handle third base and a lot of third basemen successfully transition to first. Seems to me that if you're really concerned about the defense, why not cut out the middleman?

 

He might be able to handle the position decently, but I would be reluctant to try him out there while the team is in the midst of fighting for its playoff life. A good first baseman will save his infielders a lot of errors by being able to scoop those errant throws. I don't have confidence in Hanley to be able to do that without a lot of practice.

[Kimmi]

Fans are like females; they say they want honesty, but just try giving it to them on a daily basis!

 

It's a good thing you put a smiley after that statement.

[User Name]

Run of good posts by Dojji in this thread. Kudos.

[Dojji]

Thank you kind sir. I take that kind of assessment as worth more coming from you knowing that you don't give it out lightly.

[Dojji]

OK OK .... I'm convinced.

 

Can't say that I agree Papi does everything for the team to win. He has his "me first" moments sometimes.

 

You know what? Can anyone think of a single moment when David Ortiz put his own personal comfort ahead of doing the right thing for the team? Even once? The only times I can think of that even come close to that are simply issues where the man is a full time DH and the problem was finding playing time for both him and our normal 1B in a National League park, and the issue was more about getting all the bats into the lineup in order to somehow get the best offense out of an 8 man lineup than anything about Papi's ego.

 

Maybe there's something I missed, but if you bear in mind that Ortiz is a full time DH and that isn't going to change, not somehow because of Papi's ego but because that's the best way the team has found to use the talent that is David Ortiz, I can think of maybe 1 or 2 times, if that, in his dozen plus years with this baseball team, that he's even come close to putting his ego first and foremost. And those aren't even a pale shadow compared to the sheer number of times that man has put this team on his back and carried them bodily as close to the promised land as they were ever going to be, even disregarding the 3 times he actually got them all the way home.

 

That, and David Ortiz gets a huge break from me on the very occasional times his pride may get the better of him, simply for keeping the industrial strength level of crazy that was Manny Ramirez on the straight and narrow for 4 years and 2 world championships before Manny finally shot his way out of town.

 

David Ortiz an ego problem? If the big man is an ego problem on this team, then I'll take another just like him when he's gone. If that's what a me first player looks like I'll take 25, please and thank you.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Dojji