JBJ's Spring

[Spudboy]

We think of playing in the majors as being the most pressure filled level, and maybe it is. But the amount of pressure the players must face trying to get to the show must be intense. Think of all the scouts that they play in front of, knowing that how they play is the possible difference between being a career minor leaguer (or worse), or being a major league star. If they've made it to the show, they have shown that they can handle the pressure.

 

Excellent fookin' post. And while all these guys make it to the Show, some have more talent ( and in some cases, situational luck ) and are seemingly "Clutch".

 

End of fookin' story.

 

You are correct, Mam.

[Kimmi]

Excellent fookin' post. And while all these guys make it to the Show, some have more talent ( and in some cases, situational luck ) and are seemingly "Clutch".

 

End of fookin' story.

 

You are correct, Mam.

 

 

Exactly Spud, and thank you.

[Kimmi]

If you want to start another thread overall and go at it, I'd oblige. I don't think other posters want to see you and I squabble on this thread. Just as long as we don't throw insults at one another II'm fien with all this. Hopefully you're good too that if we disagree it won't be a war of insults?

 

 

Bostopz, and anyone else interested in this topic, I started a separate thread in the MLB Baseball section.

[bostopz]

We think of playing in the majors as being the most pressure filled level, and maybe it is. But the amount of pressure the players must face trying to get to the show must be intense. Think of all the scouts that they play in front of, knowing that how they play is the possible difference between being a career minor leaguer (or worse), or being a major league star. If they've made it to the show, they have shown that they can handle the pressure.

 

I don't agree.

[cp176]

Pressure in the field of athletics is something that all athletes at all levels face. Professional athletes have proven that they have the ability to compete in their chosen field better than most. If all professional athletes were able to deal with all of the pressures that they must deal with, there might not be much of a need for sports psychologists. Certain situations I would think would tend to be more pressure packed. The question I guess is can it affect their abilities. I think absolutely. I cannot for the life of me understand that it is even possible to imagine that pressure, nerves whatever don't affect us all no matter what we do and no matter at what level we do it.

[sk7326]

Pressure in the field of athletics is something that all athletes at all levels face. Professional athletes have proven that they have the ability to compete in their chosen field better than most. If all professional athletes were able to deal with all of the pressures that they must deal with, there might not be much of a need for sports psychologists. Certain situations I would think would tend to be more pressure packed. The question I guess is can it affect their abilities. I think absolutely. I cannot for the life of me understand that it is even possible to imagine that pressure, nerves whatever don't affect us all no matter what we do and no matter at what level we do it.

 

This misstates the premise. There are definitely pressure packed situations. The trouble is that researchers have been unable to identify a consistent definition where players perform differently in meaningful ways - that stands apart from how the players perform in general.

 

A lot of time the situations are marked as special because we feel it - which is great TV but kind of a post-hoc way to look at things. And would you want to pick your players based on something a TV announcer says? If a list of great "big moment" players turns out to be a subset (if that) of great players, then doesn't the "great player" part of it resonate quite a bit more? And then you look at extremely accomplished players like Todd Helton or Larry Walker, who had relatively few chances to have David Ortiz moments? Did that make them lesser big game players - or just great players whose 24 teammates prevented them from generating the sort of TV opportunities we ascribe to this sort of thing?

[bostopz]

Pressure in the field of athletics is something that all athletes at all levels face. Professional athletes have proven that they have the ability to compete in their chosen field better than most. If all professional athletes were able to deal with all of the pressures that they must deal with, there might not be much of a need for sports psychologists. Certain situations I would think would tend to be more pressure packed. The question I guess is can it affect their abilities. I think absolutely. I cannot for the life of me understand that it is even possible to imagine that pressure, nerves whatever don't affect us all no matter what we do and no matter at what level we do it.

 

Exactly. I agree with this 100%.

[seabeachfred]

Pressure in the field of athletics is something that all athletes at all levels face. Professional athletes have proven that they have the ability to compete in their chosen field better than most. If all professional athletes were able to deal with all of the pressures that they must deal with, there might not be much of a need for sports psychologists. Certain situations I would think would tend to be more pressure packed. The question I guess is can it affect their abilities. I think absolutely. I cannot for the life of me understand that it is even possible to imagine that pressure, nerves whatever don't affect us all no matter what we do and no matter at what level we do it.

 

Right on the mark CP-----and we have to keep in mind that some players are just wired differently than others. Some respond to pressure very well, others do not. You've coached from what I think you told me, and in the 30 years I did I found that some players really loved being in a tough situation. They didn't always come through but they loved the challenge and often they did come through. Then there were others that just wished they could be somewhere else when the chips were down. They weren't bad players, and, in fact, some were pretty good ones, but they didn't respond to pressure as well.

[cp176]

This misstates the premise. There are definitely pressure packed situations. The trouble is that researchers have been unable to identify a consistent definition where players perform differently in meaningful ways - that stands apart from how the players perform in general.

 

A lot of time the situations are marked as special because we feel it - which is great TV but kind of a post-hoc way to look at things. And would you want to pick your players based on something a TV announcer says? If a list of great "big moment" players turns out to be a subset (if that) of great players, then doesn't the "great player" part of it resonate quite a bit more? And then you look at extremely accomplished players like Todd Helton or Larry Walker, who had relatively few chances to have David Ortiz moments? Did that make them lesser big game players - or just great players whose 24 teammates prevented them from generating the sort of TV opportunities we ascribe to this sort of thing?

 

What? I normally really do like your posts but you got me on this one. Every athlete that I have ever known including amateurs and professionals agrees with what I said. Much of what you said stated the obvious but I'm really not to sure that I understand the premise that I mistook. I'm going to let this one go for awhile. Once again, I like your posts and think that we could have some civil debates. Also, if you start talking sets and subsets that makes me nervous enough to miss a 2 footer that's worth something. I don't see a lot of compromise in the mathematical approach.

[cp176]

Exactly. I agree with this 100%.

 

This will make some people really nervous.

[TedWilliams101]

I think 'clutch' exists, but rarely does it show in stats (stats w/ RISP vs Non RISP situations, etc) because those players that are clutch (ie, can handle pressure) don't falter under pressure, but that doesn't mean they perform BETTER under pressure. I think that's the key. I think some players might be more focused in important situations (down, RISP, etc vs 2 out no one on early in a scoreless game), but I think that evens out. So yes, it really just boils down to the better players come through because they are better players who have managed pressure situations throughout their career, or they wouldn't be where they are. Especially for baseball. I feel like "clutch" exists as a measurable quantity more in some other sports (you can't deny Tom Brady is just fu*cking clutch), but baseball by it's nature is just tough.

[User Name]

I think 'clutch' exists, but rarely does it show in stats (stats w/ RISP vs Non RISP situations, etc) because those players that are clutch (ie, can handle pressure) don't falter under pressure, but that doesn't mean they perform BETTER under pressure. I think that's the key. I think some players might be more focused in important situations (down, RISP, etc vs 2 out no one on early in a scoreless game), but I think that evens out. So yes, it really just boils down to the better players come through because they are better players who have managed pressure situations throughout their career, or they wouldn't be where they are. Especially for baseball. I feel like "clutch" exists as a measurable quantity more in some other sports (you can't deny Tom Brady is just fu*cking clutch), but baseball by it's nature is just tough.

 

What you just said is that "clutch", by its given definition, doesn't actually exist. Wat?

[User Name]

Kimmi, I have to disagree with the premise that MLB players who can't handle pressure have been weeded out. If they had been, why is Clay Buchholz still in the league? (this is a joke btw)

[sk7326]

What? I normally really do like your posts but you got me on this one. Every athlete that I have ever known including amateurs and professionals agrees with what I said. Much of what you said stated the obvious but I'm really not to sure that I understand the premise that I mistook. I'm going to let this one go for awhile. Once again, I like your posts and think that we could have some civil debates. Also, if you start talking sets and subsets that makes me nervous enough to miss a 2 footer that's worth something. I don't see a lot of compromise in the mathematical approach.

 

What I got from your original post (so if I'm wrong, I apologize and no offense was meant) is that by denying that clutch exists that you are denying that pressure exists. That seems like a strawman - I don't think the argument "stats guys" make is that clutch doesn't exist so much as that those who are good in big moments are also good in the not-so-big ones. Ortiz - for instance - has one of the best portfolio of clutch hits I can remember. But he is also one of the best pure hitters the Red Sox have ever had. That doesn't seem like a coincidence.

[cp176]

What I got from your original post (so if I'm wrong, I apologize and no offense was meant) is that by denying that clutch exists that you are denying that pressure exists. That seems like a strawman - I don't think the argument "stats guys" make is that clutch doesn't exist so much as that those who are good in big moments are also good in the not-so-big ones. Ortiz - for instance - has one of the best portfolio of clutch hits I can remember. But he is also one of the best pure hitters the Red Sox have ever had. That doesn't seem like a coincidence.

 

Sk - I don't know what I said now. My concept of a clutch player is one who is able to do things that often times you just shake your head at and wonder how did they do that. I absolutely believe that there are athletes like that. I know that there are. At the risk of being harpooned by a few on this forum, I will just say that I have seen them in action for many, many years. I would never deny that clutch players are also very good players who normally have more opportunities to perform in tough situations than others. I truly believe as do the majority of the coaches, players and fans of various sports that I have been involved in that there are individuals who can raise the bar so to speak better than others when games are on the line and pressure at its most intense. I have know data to defend my position and I know that that makes me a "traditionalist" but I am ok with that. Confidence and absolute belief in one's abilities plays an important role as well. The fact that some things just can't be supported by data makes those particular things important to me. If everything in the games was as predictable as some people would like it to be, I would not like the games.

[GomesBeard]

Kimmi, I have to disagree with the premise that MLB players who can't handle pressure have been weeded out. If they had been, why is Clay Buchholz still in the league? (this is a joke btw)

 

Unfortunately, it really isn't....!

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, I have to disagree with the premise that MLB players who can't handle pressure have been weeded out. If they had been, why is Clay Buchholz still in the league? (this is a joke btw)

 

 

LOL, Clay is such an enigma. I have no way of knowing for sure, but with him, I don't think it's the pressure, but just a general lack of focus and/or overthinking. He seems to lack mental toughness, which may or may not be pressure induced.

[cp176]

LOL, Clay is such an enigma. I have no way of knowing for sure, but with him, I don't think it's the pressure, but just a general lack of focus and/or overthinking. He seems to lack mental toughness, which may or may not be pressure induced.

 

I think that we think that he thinks more than he does. Trying to be nice there.

[cp176]

Title of the thread is JBJ's Spring - He is off to a very good start. Hope that people aren't counting him out just yet. He has extreme talent.

[Spitball]

Sk - I don't know what I said now. My concept of a clutch player is one who is able to do things that often times you just shake your head at and wonder how did they do that. I absolutely believe that there are athletes like that. I know that there are. At the risk of being harpooned by a few on this forum, I will just say that I have seen them in action for many, many years. I would never deny that clutch players are also very good players who normally have more opportunities to perform in tough situations than others. I truly believe as do the majority of the coaches, players and fans of various sports that I have been involved in that there are individuals who can raise the bar so to speak better than others when games are on the line and pressure at its most intense. I have know data to defend my position and I know that that makes me a "traditionalist" but I am ok with that. Confidence and absolute belief in one's abilities plays an important role as well. The fact that some things just can't be supported by data makes those particular things important to me. If everything in the games was as predictable as some people would like it to be, I would not like the games.

 

Sabermetrics do not say everything in the game is necessarily predictable. It is an objective look at what the facts tell us as opposed to what various opinions tell us.

[a700hitter]

Sabermetrics do not say everything in the game is necessarily predictable. It is an objective look at what the facts tell us as opposed to what various opinions tell us.

 

It is a fact if you see the left fielder break back toward the wall on a popup to SS. Does that show up in a stat.

[cp176]

Sabermetrics do not say everything in the game is necessarily predictable. It is an objective look at what the facts tell us as opposed to what various opinions tell us.

 

And I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all. I think that this concept of "sabermetrics" is certainly more refined than ever before but the concept has been used in various ways since the game began. Couple more hits for JBJ so far tonight. He is off to a very good start.

[Spitball]

And I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all. I think that this concept of "sabermetrics" is certainly more refined than ever before but the concept has been used in various ways since the game began. Couple more hits for JBJ so far tonight. He is off to a very good start.

 

I agree, and I personally love the fact baseball has become more than a spectator sport. It has become an intellectual study.

[Spitball]

It is a fact if you see the left fielder break back toward the wall on a popup to SS. Does that show up in a stat.

 

It is moving in that direction.

 

http://regressing.deadspin.com/mlb-announces-revolutionary-new-fielding-tracking-syste-1534200504

[User Name]

I agree, and I personally love the fact baseball has become more than a spectator sport. It has become an intellectual study.

 

This is sig-worthy. You are a gentleman, a scholar, and an intellectual of the highest stature, fine sir.

[a700hitter]

It is moving in that direction.

 

http://regressing.deadspin.com/mlb-announces-revolutionary-new-fielding-tracking-syste-1534200504

 

Why bother watching? Just print out some charts. Probably don't need a manager either.

[Spitball]

This is sig-worthy. You are a gentleman, a scholar, and an intellectual of the highest stature, fine sir.

 

Thank you, User Name. I feel the same about you and your posts.

[cp176]

It is moving in that direction.

 

http://regressing.deadspin.com/mlb-announces-revolutionary-new-fielding-tracking-syste-1534200504

 

I think that many of us and I would include you have always seen it this way to some extent. It was always a statistically driven experience for me as it was for the people who played the game with me.

[cp176]

I think that many of us and I would include you have always seen it this way to some extent. It was always a statistically driven experience for me as it was for the people who played the game with me.

 

I would also add that intellectuals or those self-proclaimed as such have been studying the game for a long time as well. There are also people that are playing that might be considered intellectual but in general I think that I am on safe ground here saying that the average IQ of the boys between the lines isn't anything special. It is still a game and we can make of it what we wish. I think that there is plenty of room for people who see it and value it differently than I do.

[a700hitter]

I would also add that intellectuals or those self-proclaimed as such have been studying the game for a long time as well. There are also people that are playing that might be considered intellectual but in general I think that I am on safe ground here saying that the average IQ of the boys between the lines isn't anything special. It is still a game and we can make of it what we wish. I think that there is plenty of room for people who see it and value it differently than I do.

There are probably more than a few managers with IQs only in double digits. Its like putting a monkey in charge of a high tech rocket ship.