How did Ben do today?

[jacksonianmarch]

It may be a bet on Allan Craig, but you're rotation is s*** come 2015. Who's gonna throw the ball

[sk7326]

It may be a bet on Allan Craig, but you're rotation is s*** come 2015. Who's gonna throw the ball

 

that is the question that management has to figure out - between trade market (Latos) and FAs (Lester, De La Rosa). The question is whether this becomes a sound-and-fury but ultimately kind of neutral offseason (like the Yankees this past one) or something truly productive (like the Yankees 2008-2009, or the Red Sox 2012-2013 one). They have the financial flexibility and prospect inventory to do some lifting on that front.

[jacksonianmarch]

The thing is, your rotation needed help before you dealt away your two horses. You need two horses plus. That isn't feasible to add in one offseason. Unless one of the kids hits ace level next yr, unlikely btw, then 2015 will be a bridge yr. And the funny thing is, the sox made deals to make 2015 look like it's not a bridge yr. Strange direction all around

[a700hitter]

I think Ben attempted to get some blue chip top prospects, but whe none were available, he decided to fill some needs for next season as opposed to taking a handful of second tier prospects. Prospects in the second tier have a much lower success rate and they have a longer wait time. I think he filled some needs for next season. He got 2 outfielders who are right handed hitters. He added some power. He also brought back a pitcher who who can slot into the back of the rotation. All of the guys that he brought back are reasonable budget items. He also added some prospects in return for Peavy and Miller. In the offseason, he can concentrate on and devote team resources to rebuilding the top of the rotation. I think that the relationship and negotiations with Lester were badly mismanaged forcing the situation. I gave Ben a B, and it would have been higher if his actions weren't forced by the mismanagement of the Lester situation.

[d-money]

What does this mean. You won't be fooled? They are currently poised to have a tiny payroll in 2015. Do you think that's how this will end? They aren't trying to fool you, they are trying to make reasonable deals that help them move forward. It's on you to tolerate a little ambiguity for a minute. It's not on them to maintain an ambiguity-free-zone. That expectation would be like tying both hands behind their back.

 

Listen the deal for lackey stinks!!! Craig is having a miserable year and is owe 25 mil for the next 3 years.Kelly got shelled recently.

 

They have two months to see what these rookie pitchers bring to the table.Lets see what they got!!

 

In terms of cespedes we will see.He is a hacker and tends to strikeout alot.

 

 

 

IN

[a700hitter]

BTW, Let me go on record calling all of you out who voted "Too Earl to Tell". Duh! Grow a pair and stop copping out. Of course it is too early to tell. If we got a bunch of prospects, we wouldn't know the outcome for years. This is a current opinion poll, not final judgment.

[reYoukilis]

I agree but thats coming from a person whose not in the meeting rooms. My positive side says that the rest of this season will be a tryout for all the young arms so that when the offseason comes we'll have a clearer indication of who's going to work and who isnt. Then we fill the rest of the roster up with some elite talent.

[Palodios]

I think that the relationship and negotiations with Lester were badly mismanaged forcing the situation. I gave Ben a B, and it would have been higher if his actions weren't forced by the mismanagement of the Lester situation.

 

I think the contract situation was mismanged. However, Lester has been extremely, extremely professional about the whole thing. We also are looking at a rare scenario where the Red Sox didn't burn a bridge with a leaving player -- that seems almost unheard of in this city.

[a700hitter]

I think the contract situation was mismanged. However, Lester has been extremely, extremely professional about the whole thing. We also are looking at a rare scenario where the Red Sox didn't burn a bridge with a leaving player -- that seems almost unheard of in this city.

Yes, those are good points.

[Bellhorn04]

BTW, Let me go on record calling all of you out who voted "Too Earl to Tell". Duh! Grow a pair and stop copping out. Of course it is too early to tell. If we got a bunch of prospects, we wouldn't know the outcome for years. This is a current opinion poll, not final judgment.

 

OK, well, I'd change my vote from 'Too soon' to B, if I could, but it's too late.

 

This would be more feasible if we were voting on each deal separately. But voting on multiple deals like this is pretty difficult, for me at least. I just don't follow the game closely enough any more.

[GomesBeard]

OK, well, I'd change my vote from 'Too soon' to B, if I could, but it's too late.

 

This would be more feasible if we were voting on each deal separately. But voting on multiple deals like this is pretty difficult, for me at least. I just don't follow the game closely enough any more.

 

Ditto re: my 'Too Soon...' vote, I'd probably go B. Interesting that with all the angst on other threads, overall, most people give the trades a passing grade (C or higher, and taking out us fence-sitters ;-). I would have expected a tendency towards failing grades, given the comments throughout the forum. FWIW, I've seen most sports sites giving most of the individual trades a B- or better, and overall, for the bunch of them, B's.... Most pundits seem to think the Sox made a bunch of good moves, overall. Again, FWIW.

[a700hitter]

Ah, just poking you guys a little. Some of us are just more opinionated than others. I wasn't serious.

[SoxFanForsyth]

It may be a bet on Allan Craig, but you're rotation is s*** come 2015. Who's gonna throw the ball

 

Why are we judging the 2015 rotation when it hasn't even been addressed again?

 

I guess Tanaka is going to be s*** in 2015 and beyond because he can't pitch right now. /JacksoLogic

[SoxFanForsyth]

The thing is, your rotation needed help before you dealt away your two horses. You need two horses plus. That isn't feasible to add in one offseason. Unless one of the kids hits ace level next yr, unlikely btw, then 2015 will be a bridge yr. And the funny thing is, the sox made deals to make 2015 look like it's not a bridge yr. Strange direction all around

 

They'll sign Lester. This is the exact same dance that Lee went through in 2010 when he went back to the Phillies after they traded him. Always wanted to go back, left money on the table.

 

They've got about $70mm to deal with in the offseason (after arbitration & benefits). They can give Lester 5/120 and Shields 4/72 and still have $30mm before they hit LT. They have prospects for days. They can go give Owens & Swihart & Betts (3 top 20's) to the ChiSox for Sale. Then you go into 2015 with Lester - Sale - Shields - Kelley - Buchholz.

 

It's entirely feasible. They've got all the flexibility in the world. Lets not act like they can't go do that. If anything, they're going to go out and overspend so that they don't have to go through 2014 again.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Listen the deal for lackey stinks!!! Craig is having a miserable year and is owe 25 mil for the next 3 years.Kelly got shelled recently.

 

They have two months to see what these rookie pitchers bring to the table.Lets see what they got!!

 

In terms of cespedes we will see.He is a hacker and tends to strikeout alot.

 

 

 

IN

 

not sure if you realize that 3/25 is an extremely reasonable contract.

[Palodios]

They can give Lester 5/120 and Shields 4/72 and still have $30mm before they hit LT. They have prospects for days.

 

Shields goes against all of their philosophies, but there are a brick ton of pitchers hitting free agency in 2016, and they are mostly on teams with no money. The Red Sox could trade Ball and Eduardo for any one of them and not even blink. Look at the list I posted on the rotation thread, it might surprise you.

[Spudboy]

I voted D but that was in haste.

 

I would say C or B now.

 

I am very disappointed that the Sox did not make a serious effort to retain Lester before the season started and now that it became apparent that they would not pay the guy I guess it's best that they get something back for him other than just a comp. pick.

 

I'm not thrilled with Cespedes. He does not fit the mold of a Sox hitter. Low OBP and strikes out too much and he does not even hit for average. And I think that he is a hack defensively, too. I don't think that he will be here in 2016 but who knows. The fans will be delighted with his occasional bomb and a bunch of long foul balls until then.

 

I'm not sure what to think of Craig. If he can regain his hitting then it's a good move. If he doesn't then he will be gone too I suppose.

 

Kelly is said to be an unfinished work according to Cherrington. We'll see!

 

I have nothing to say about the young pitchers gathered in these deals other than that they are prospects.

 

Cherrington said that the goal was to get a start on the off season and to allow the new pieces to show what they can do in the rest of the season so the Sox will have a better idea of what they must do after the season ends. With that in mind, I guess the Sox did okay for now.

 

I wish that Miller had been kept too.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Ok, can I just ask, because I've heard this a lot. Where are we coming up with "Cespedes strikes out too much"?

 

Cespedes' K% this year is 18.3%. League average K% is 20.3% so he's striking out less than league average. This isn't a Salty-type player. Salty K's around 30% of the time, so 167% as much as Cespedes.

 

I get the OBP thing, but two things: 1. OBP is down all over the league - the A's team has a .329 OBP. Last year, the Sox had a .349 OBP. The MLB leader is the Pirates, with a .332 OBP this year, so it's really down. 2. SLG% is more highly correlated with scoring runs than OBP is. Odd as it sounds, it really is (it's about 82% to 76%). So, the Sox needed some power really bad, and that is not available on the market, so they went after it when it was available.

[jd98]

Ok, can I just ask, because I've heard this a lot. Where are we coming up with "Cespedes strikes out too much"?

 

Cespedes' K% this year is 18.3%. League average K% is 20.3% so he's striking out less than league average. This isn't a Salty-type player. Salty K's around 30% of the time, so 167% as much as Cespedes.

 

I get the OBP thing, but two things: 1. OBP is down all over the league - the A's team has a .329 OBP. Last year, the Sox had a .349 OBP. The MLB leader is the Pirates, with a .332 OBP this year, so it's really down. 2. SLG% is more highly correlated with scoring runs than OBP is. Odd as it sounds, it really is (it's about 82% to 76%). So, the Sox needed some power really bad, and that is not available on the market, so they went after it when it was available.

 

Where were you when I was trying to make that point a few days ago. I also agree with you about Cespedes, and I started to post the same thing yesterday. Although his K rate was 23.9% last year, so his career K rate is 20.6%. That's still just barely over league average, and much less than Napoli, Gomes, Ross, JBJ, Bogaerts, Drew, Middlebrooks....

Edited August 1, 2014 by jd98

[Spudboy]

Ok, can I just ask, because I've heard this a lot. Where are we coming up with "Cespedes strikes out too much"?

 

Cespedes' K% this year is 18.3%. League average K% is 20.3% so he's striking out less than league average. This isn't a Salty-type player. Salty K's around 30% of the time, so 167% as much as Cespedes.

 

I get the OBP thing, but two things: 1. OBP is down all over the league - the A's team has a .329 OBP. Last year, the Sox had a .349 OBP. The MLB leader is the Pirates, with a .332 OBP this year, so it's really down. 2. SLG% is more highly correlated with scoring runs than OBP is. Odd as it sounds, it really is (it's about 82% to 76%). So, the Sox needed some power really bad, and that is not available on the market, so they went after it when it was available.

 

"He does not fit the mold of a Sox hitter. Low OBP and strikes out too much and he does not even hit for average."

 

Maybe you should spend more time attempting to comprehend what you try to read and less time conjuring up fantasies about baseball.

[MJantomaso]

Why is everyone hating on Cespedes? His swing is going to be pretty dangerous at Fenway. If we manage to resign Lester in the offseason (which we most likely will) we get an elite talent for virtually nothing.

 

With Lackey, I think Ben got the most that he could get for him. Im not going to dog Craig for having a down season. Adrian Beltre use to not be worth a s*** until he resurrected his career playing in Fenway. Not saying that Craigs career needs to be resurrected but playing in Boston will surely benefit him.

[a700hitter]

Why is everyone hating on Cespedes? His swing is going to be pretty dangerous at Fenway. If we manage to resign Lester in the offseason (which we most likely will) we get an elite talent for virtually nothing.

 

With Lackey, I think Ben got the most that he could get for him. Im not going to dog Craig for having a down season. Adrian Beltre use to not be worth a s*** until he resurrected his career playing in Fenway. Not saying that Craigs career needs to be resurrected but playing in Boston will surely benefit him.

I think Cespedes will be a pleasant surprise for people both offensively and defensively.

[Northern Star]

If that's true then Lackey is a huge jackass and f*** him and good riddance. He was literally the worst starting pitcher in MLB in 2011 and got paid over $15 million. Then he didn't pitch at all in 2012 and got paid over $15 million. And now he's not going to honor the last year on his contract that he willingly signed.

 

Just as a side point, something that absolutely kills me about sports is when players start getting bitchy about wanting a contract torn up and redone - especially in football with the holdouts. Never mind fines, players should be suspended if they hold out. You signed that piece of paper, and the fact you don't like it any more is tough f***ing s***.

[SoxFanForsyth]

"He does not fit the mold of a Sox hitter. Low OBP and strikes out too much and he does not even hit for average."

 

Maybe you should spend more time attempting to comprehend what you try to read and less time conjuring up fantasies about baseball.

 

err...the red sox struck out, as a team last year, at a rate of 20.5% (20.9% this year, but they didn't win a WS this year, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and go with the lower rate). Cespedes is striking out this year at 18.3%. So how about we do this, I have an idea.

 

I'll stop asking questions about what the hell you're talking about when you start making comments that aren't factually and completely wrong. K? Cool.

[MJantomaso]

This is what NESN thinks of the Sox moves.

 

"It’s rare that a team trades its two best starters and a dominant setup man amid a flurry of transactions yet still come out a winner. The Red Sox achieved their desired deadline goal, though, which should count for something. Once it became clear the Red Sox were not going to re-sign Jon Lester before the deadline, it made sense to pursue trades. The Sox were better off acquiring something of value, especially since they intend to contend in 2015, and it’s still possible that Lester could return in free agency this winter. John Lackey was under team control for 2015 at the major league minimum, but you can’t blame the Red Sox for striking while the iron’s hot. His trade value reached its peak. Andrew Miller is an impending free agent who drew considerable interest. He, like Lester, could consider returning this offseason. Stephen Drew just needed to go. The Red Sox went into negotiations looking for major league talent that could help them contend next season. Yoenis Cespedes, Allen Craig and Joe Kelly all fit that criteria. The success — or lack thereof — of the 2015 Red Sox likely will hinge on what other moves the team makes over the offseason. Boston certainly started trending in the right direction, though.

 

Read more at: http://nesn.com/playlist/2014-mlb-trade-deadline-winners-losers-easy-to-spot/9/

"

[SoxFanForsyth]

I liked their moves a lot, and I agree with NESN, but they are probably a little biased.

[jacksonianmarch]

It is surprising that he doesn't miss more bats with his velocity. The kid throws 96-98. Coming out of the pen, that's 98-99. You're looking at a Jim Johnson type pitcher out of the pen, which is pretty valuable. Considering you'd have that for 5 years, it wouldn't be a horrible return for Lackey.

 

I think a lot of people thought he would be a pen arm because he has a history of control issues. Those seem to have been sorted out though (2.57 BB/9 this year). If he can improve his secondary stuff just a bit, he's a mid-rotation guy.

 

He's a 2 pitch pitcher with control and durability issues. He's in your rotation for now, but my bet is the sox sell on him before he turns into a relief pumpkin.

 

I gave Ben a C. For now. I am not sure Cespedes is a 40HR hitter in Fenway. Yes, he has power to spare, but he also K's a massive amount and doesn't walk. While he's probably a 30HR guy, I doubt he gets to 40. Yes he has an 80 arm, but he is a butcher who uses his arm to get a better defensive reputation than he deserves. Did anyone see those two throws he made in successive games? What did they have in common? Both balls were badly butchered before he unleashed a hell of a throw. If you had him for 3 or 4 years, I'd say it's a good deal. But you don't. The thing that actually makes this a palatable deal is the draft pick the sox get, which will increase your pool for the draft next yr. This deal is a C for the most part

 

The Lackey deal was interesting. You dealt a horse who is under control for 2015 for a starter with durability and control issues and a DH playing the OF who is playing like s*** this yr. This deal is a D with the possibility to be a B if Craig can find himself.

 

The Miller deal was solid, since you got a guy who is #3 in the Oriole system behind Gausman and Bundy for a lefty reliever. I'd say a B

 

The Peavy deal was an A. Getting two prospects with A level stuff who are a little down this yr for a guy who should have been DFA'd is an A.

 

The Drew deal is an F for the sox. Yes, you saved money. I think we are all happy Henry can now buy a bigger yacht. But you just handed the Yankees an audition on a guy they could have been stuck with on a long term deal if things didn't work out. That's huge

[SoxFanForsyth]

He's a 2 pitch pitcher with control and durability issues. He's in your rotation for now, but my bet is the sox sell on him before he turns into a relief pumpkin.

 

I gave Ben a C. For now. I am not sure Cespedes is a 40HR hitter in Fenway. Yes, he has power to spare, but he also K's a massive amount and doesn't walk. While he's probably a 30HR guy, I doubt he gets to 40. Yes he has an 80 arm, but he is a butcher who uses his arm to get a better defensive reputation than he deserves. Did anyone see those two throws he made in successive games? What did they have in common? Both balls were badly butchered before he unleashed a hell of a throw. If you had him for 3 or 4 years, I'd say it's a good deal. But you don't. The thing that actually makes this a palatable deal is the draft pick the sox get, which will increase your pool for the draft next yr. This deal is a C for the most part

 

The Lackey deal was interesting. You dealt a horse who is under control for 2015 for a starter with durability and control issues and a DH playing the OF who is playing like s*** this yr. This deal is a D with the possibility to be a B if Craig can find himself.

 

The Miller deal was solid, since you got a guy who is #3 in the Oriole system behind Gausman and Bundy for a lefty reliever. I'd say a B

 

The Peavy deal was an A. Getting two prospects with A level stuff who are a little down this yr for a guy who should have been DFA'd is an A.

 

The Drew deal is an F for the sox. Yes, you saved money. I think we are all happy Henry can now buy a bigger yacht. But you just handed the Yankees an audition on a guy they could have been stuck with on a long term deal if things didn't work out. That's huge

 

NO HE DOES NOT. My goodness. People. Look at stats.

[jacksonianmarch]

NO HE DOES NOT. My goodness. People. Look at stats.

 

So striking out 20.6% of the time is not a massive amount? That fits into the below average to poor range per fangraphs

[SoxFanForsyth]

So striking out 20.6% of the time is not a massive amount? That fits into the below average to poor range per fangraphs

 

It's an average amount. It's literally league average. That would be "average".

 

Salty, Chris Davis, Napoli. They K a massive amount. The league average K% this year is 20.3%.

 

I guess the league K's at a massive %? Or what?

 

Maybe you should read this, which you intentionally omitted, before you say "oh fangraphs says its below average to poor"

 

Please note that this chart is meant as an estimate, and that league-average strikeout and walk rates vary on a year-by-year basis.