Will Red Sox pursue Japanese Ace - Masahiro Tanaka?

[Bellhorn04]

I would not be surprised if all of ownerships entities are controlled by a holding company. Decisions like a posting fee for Tanaka might be decided by the tax attorney's based on how well Liverpool did or NESN or their NASCAR team. It gives them tremendous flexibility. Same goes in the opposite direction ... how the Sox did in 2013 might determine what they do in their NASCAR operation. This is why I am telling all you folks to stop being concerned about the posting fee. They might actually need the posting fee to offset some other profits.

 

Sorry, but I can't see how under any circumstances would they 'need' the posting fee, any more than they 'need' any other expenses. Sure it's a tax deduction, but even if the tax rate was say 50%, you have to spend $1.00 to save 50 cents.

[mvp 78]

We don't know how these entities are legally structured, so saying Tanaka's fee would offset NASCAR revenue is a little presumptuous.

[marklmw]

Sorry, but I can't see how under any circumstances would they 'need' the posting fee, any more than they 'need' any other expenses. Sure it's a tax deduction, but even if the tax rate was say 50%, you have to spend $1.00 to save 50 cents.

Suppose they do pay a 60M posting fee but have a real cost of 30M ... then you factor in the contract that might cost 17M to an experienced MLB player but they sign him for 72/6 ... which becomes very reasonable to keep under the cap. It is their decision but I hope that you realize that GE at times pays no corporate tax because of corporate tax laws. Spread the 30M posting cost over 6 years etc. It is an expense that they probably covered in the past two weeks alone. This ownership team lives a different kind of life. Do they really miss 30M spread over 6 years? I doubt it. They cannot spend the money that they make.

[mvp 78]

I don't want ownership to spend money like a drunken sailor. I don't buy the "they have unlimited wealth and should spend all of it" gag.

[marklmw]

We don't know how these entities are legally structured, so saying Tanaka's fee would offset NASCAR revenue is a little presumptuous.

 

You guys kill me. Have you ever heard of Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway. BH is a holding company that has many businesses. Some companies they own stakes in while other companies they may control outright.

I said that I would not be surprised in the Sox ownership team also has its entities under one holding company and to say that I am being presumptuous is a low information type of statement. In fact I would bet a steak dinner to any taker on this assumption.

[marklmw]

I don't want ownership to spend money like a drunken sailor. I don't buy the "they have unlimited wealth and should spend all of it" gag.

What was Bostons Payroll last season and what is it projected to be next season? They are hardly spending like a drunken sailor.

[sk7326]

I don't want ownership to spend money like a drunken sailor. I don't buy the "they have unlimited wealth and should spend all of it" gag.

 

It is less that than the "they have their own TV network and charge the highest ticket prices in the league" gag ... consumers spend more than other fan bases do, it is not unreasonable to expect them to see it in the product - does not exempt running a smart front office. But their salary structure is essentially limited by how much money they want to take out of the business.

[Bellhorn04]

Suppose they do pay a 60M posting fee but have a real cost of 30M ... then you factor in the contract that might cost 17M to an experienced MLB player but they sign him for 72/6 ... which becomes very reasonable to keep under the cap. It is their decision but I hope that you realize that GE at times pays no corporate tax because of corporate tax laws. Spread the 30M posting cost over 6 years etc. It is an expense that they probably covered in the past two weeks alone. This ownership team lives a different kind of life. Do they really miss 30M spread over 6 years? I doubt it. They cannot spend the money that they make.

 

I assume when GE pays no corporate tax it's because of investment tax credits, which again involves spending more than you save. 'Paying no tax' sounds great but you have to see the actual tax returns before you know why.

[mvp 78]

It is less that than the "they have their own TV network and charge the highest ticket prices in the league" gag ... consumers spend more than other fan bases do, it is not unreasonable to expect them to see it in the product - does not exempt running a smart front office. But their salary structure is essentially limited by how much money they want to take out of the business.

 

They had the 4th highest payroll in MLB and won a WS. Seems like they are spending enough to me.

[sk7326]

They had the 4th highest payroll in MLB and won a WS. Seems like they are spending enough to me.

 

That is fair - but I am more interested in baseball, not budgetary limitations. Nobody argues they avoid bad moves. But at the end of the day, if the players make more money who cares? For the cost of the operation to fans, better it go where you see it. Would a large post be a stupid move. Possibly, because Tanaka does not merit the love. It is not stupid just by being a large investment.

[User Name]

That is fair - but I am more interested in baseball, not budgetary limitations. Nobody argues they avoid bad moves. But at the end of the day, if the players make more money who cares? For the cost of the operation to fans, better it go where you see it. Would a large post be a stupid move. Possibly, because Tanaka does not merit the love. It is not stupid just by being a large investment.

 

This is flat-out not true, as there is a point where there's no way the team will recoup its investment on the player given the $$$/years invested. Look at A-Rod's contract. Everybody and their mother knew right from the get-go that contract would end up in the red, even if Rodriguez played like in-his-prime A-Rod for most of the contract.

[seabeachfred]

Damon and Teixeira were the best available position players at positions of need for the Yanks in the offseason they were signed. And what does Babe Ruth have to do with anything here? That doesn't make any sense. Also, how do you know that teams won't pursue Tanaka? There are a bunch of teams with excess money and pitching needs this season. The Yankees, Cubs, Blue Jays, Dodgers, Mets, Red Sox, Seattle and the Giants could all be players for Tanaka. You are trying to convince yourself of a bunch of ideas that either haven't been proven, or are simply not true.

 

Still User Mark makes a good point or two. No matter how you slice it the Yankees are our No. 1 enemy and until they are totally drawn and quartered we will have to keep our eyes on them. Just jog your memory for a moment back a few years. IN BOTH CASES OF DAMON AND TEIXIERA the Yankees said repeatedly they had no interest in signing either one only to drop in the last minute and ink both of them. To me they were lying their f***ing asses off from the start. OTOH, I think that Mark may have to add another suspect to our drop dead list. Out here all you hear is the Dodgers readying themselves to spend their asses off to win a title. Tanaka is in their cross hairs and these guys will spend whatever they need to in order to buy a title. That you can take to the bank, or in the Dodgers case, the blood bank.

[seabeachfred]

In retrospect, that Teixieracontract looks horrible. The Sox made the right decision on Damon as well.

 

True mvp, but not at the time nor immediately afterward. Damon had a standout 2006 season for them while his replacement in Boston, Crisp, sucked. When he was switched to LF the next year he did fine too, but is CF days were over. As for Tex, his first season with the Yankees saw him lead the league in home runs and lead them to a WS Title. It just depends on how you classify success. On the short term, to me it was successful what the Yankees did in both their cases; in the long term it could turn out to be a real albatross where Teixeira is concerned.

[seabeachfred]

The age is the fascinating part of this. He is 25, that is the big plus here, and there is a decent chance he could end up a solid #2. It would be a large investment for that - but that would be a good guy to have. I agree you can't expect him to be a staff anchor. But as we saw this year, a rotation of #2/#3 starters is plenty to win the title.

 

Yes it is Sk7; that was proven conclusively in the post season by our team. Still, from what I saw of Jon Lester during the playoff run he looked like he could be a No. 1 because that's was he was against three tough teams, one right after the other.

[marklmw]

This is flat-out not true, as there is a point where there's no way the team will recoup its investment on the player given the $$$/years invested. Look at A-Rod's contract. Everybody and their mother knew right from the get-go that contract would end up in the red, even if Rodriguez played like in-his-prime A-Rod for most of the contract.

Agree .... if you are going to pay for a player you would like to be paying for him in his prime.

[mvp 78]

True mvp, but not at the time nor immediately afterward. Damon had a standout 2006 season for them while his replacement in Boston, Crisp, sucked. When he was switched to LF the next year he did fine too, but is CF days were over. As for Tex, his first season with the Yankees saw him lead the league in home runs and lead them to a WS Title. It just depends on how you classify success. On the short term, to me it was successful what the Yankees did in both their cases; in the long term it could turn out to be a real albatross where Teixeira is concerned.

 

The Sox moved on from Damon knowing that he wouldn't be able to continue in CF very long. They were right and won a WS without him in 07. Teix started out great, but the $'s and length of contract don't agree to his performance. Ignoring the end of a bad contract is what neutered the Yanks this year. Old players are more prone to injury and reduced production.

[Palodios]

Still User Mark makes a good point or two. No matter how you slice it the Yankees are our No. 1 enemy and until they are totally drawn and quartered we will have to keep our eyes on them. Just jog your memory for a moment back a few years. IN BOTH CASES OF DAMON AND TEIXIERA the Yankees said repeatedly they had no interest in signing either one only to drop in the last minute and ink both of them. To me they were lying their f***ing asses off from the start. OTOH, I think that Mark may have to add another suspect to our drop dead list. Out here all you hear is the Dodgers readying themselves to spend their asses off to win a title. Tanaka is in their cross hairs and these guys will spend whatever they need to in order to buy a title. That you can take to the bank, or in the Dodgers case, the blood bank.

 

Remember when they had claimed to have no interest in signing Crawford, had dinner with him, and never made an actual offer? I do agree that sometimes the AL East can seem like a chess match haha

[marklmw]

I would like to be clear on something ... Ownership is not going to make a posting fee just because they can ... they will make a posting fee if it makes financial sense to them. As I said earlier ... they have tax and other advisers that they pay a tremendous amount of money to for helping them make sound financial decisions. The Sox averaged how many fans last year .... 35,000? x's 81 games plus the playoffs. 2,835,000 regular season fans. Average ticket price ... $30 ... average on concessions ... $30 (note to UN ... this is not factual) = 170M. + Playoffs +MLB revenue sharing, +TV Contract with NESN + + + who knows what. I would imagine that the Sox are turning a profit. Just a wild guess.

[jung]

The age is the fascinating part of this. He is 25, that is the big plus here, and there is a decent chance he could end up a solid #2. It would be a large investment for that - but that would be a good guy to have. I agree you can't expect him to be a staff anchor. But as we saw this year, a rotation of #2/#3 starters is plenty to win the title.

 

Well the only argument I have with this is that while we might have rightfully questioned whether we really had a 1 or not even based on his regular season performance, in point of fact we did have a 1. It just took awhile for him to convince himself that he had to find that top gear within himself before he could claim it. But it would be hard to consider Lester a #2/3 ever again. I suppose there is a question about whether he can sustain it which is not to imply that he needs to put up his post season numbers in the regular season to sustain it. If he had fewer of those seemingly lost in a cutter quagmire periods during the regular season, that would be the end of any discussion that he is a 2 masquerading as a 1 IMO. He has convinced me without question. It is just always hard to know where baseball fits for these guys once they have families, money to burn etc etc. Take a hell of a lotta' commitment to be the guy at the top.

 

Plus I doubt anybody will ever fully credit him for how hard it is to be that successful in Fenway as a LH pitcher since every little mistake you make ends up over or against that wall.

[marklmw]

Yes it is Sk7; that was proven conclusively in the post season by our team. Still, from what I saw of Jon Lester during the playoff run he looked like he could be a No. 1 because that's was he was against three tough teams, one right after the other.

Lester was and is an amazing pitcher. The more he changes speed the better he pitches.

[Palodios]

The Sox moved on from Damon knowing that he wouldn't be able to continue in CF very long. They were right and won a WS without him in 07. Teix started out great, but the $'s and length of contract don't agree to his performance. Ignoring the end of a bad contract is what neutered the Yanks this year. Old players are more prone to injury and reduced production.

 

It seemed to me that there was a level of expectation for older players to get hurt. What has killed them the past few years has been when that their younger/middle-aged guys, like Banuelos, Pineda, Granderson, Texeira have gotten hurt. Then on top of that, their entire aging core seemed to fall apart over that same span (Ichiro, Youk, Jeter, Sabathia, Rivera, Arod), all while losing a significant number of free agents in the process.

[User Name]

Still User Mark makes a good point or two. No matter how you slice it the Yankees are our No. 1 enemy and until they are totally drawn and quartered we will have to keep our eyes on them. Just jog your memory for a moment back a few years. IN BOTH CASES OF DAMON AND TEIXIERA the Yankees said repeatedly they had no interest in signing either one only to drop in the last minute and ink both of them. To me they were lying their f***ing asses off from the start. OTOH, I think that Mark may have to add another suspect to our drop dead list. Out here all you hear is the Dodgers readying themselves to spend their asses off to win a title. Tanaka is in their cross hairs and these guys will spend whatever they need to in order to buy a title. That you can take to the bank, or in the Dodgers case, the blood bank.

 

You're blending two completely different points as myarguments have been that A) You don't spend to counter the Yankees, and vice versa, as in those two cases the main idea was to improve their ballclub, screwing us over was just collateral damage. B ) There are a lot more suitors for Tanaka than mark is willing to accept. And the Yankees are the least of our worries right now given the number of holes they have and available talent.

[User Name]

The Sox moved on from Damon knowing that he wouldn't be able to continue in CF very long. They were right and won a WS without him in 07. Teix started out great, but the $'s and length of contract don't agree to his performance. Ignoring the end of a bad contract is what neutered the Yanks this year. Old players are more prone to injury and reduced production.

 

And that's exactly why money matters so little yet years matter so much for any potential Ellsbury contract.

[marklmw]

And that's exactly why money matters so little yet years matter so much for any potential Ellsbury contract.

 

I have to give you props UN for changing my mind about Ellsbury. You took me from a 'we have to sign him' to a 'we can get by without him'

[marklmw]

You're blending two completely different points as myarguments have been that A) You don't spend to counter the Yankees, and vice versa, as in those two cases the main idea was to improve their ballclub, screwing us over was just collateral damage. B ) There are a lot more suitors for Tanaka than mark is willing to accept. And the Yankees are the least of our worries right now given the number of holes they have and available talent.

 

I accept that the Yankees, Dodgers and Rangers are all going to make a posting offer for Tanaka ... even to be the winning post out of this 3 plus Boston would be a victory in my eyes. Win the posting and then you have to actually sign the player.

[sk7326]

Well the only argument I have with this is that while we might have rightfully questioned whether we really had a 1 or not even based on his regular season performance, in point of fact we did have a 1. It just took awhile for him to convince himself that he had to find that top gear within himself before he could claim it. But it would be hard to consider Lester a #2/3 ever again. I suppose there is a question about whether he can sustain it which is not to imply that he needs to put up his post season numbers in the regular season to sustain it. If he had fewer of those seemingly lost in a cutter quagmire periods during the regular season, that would be the end of any discussion that he is a 2 masquerading as a 1 IMO. He has convinced me without question. It is just always hard to know where baseball fits for these guys once they have families, money to burn etc etc. Take a hell of a lotta' commitment to be the guy at the top.

 

Plus I doubt anybody will ever fully credit him for how hard it is to be that successful in Fenway as a LH pitcher since every little mistake you make ends up over or against that wall.

 

Lester was awesome in the post-season. At the same time, I do look at the larger body of work - which is still good. I'd place him a wee bit below the Kershaw-Verlander-Hernandez-Darvish sort of level ... but that is another level of missing bats. That is what I think when I think "true #1". But Lester being an elite #2 who can do some #1 work - is not at all a dig or anything. The downturn in his #1-ness is best seen through a sharp dip in strikeout rate the last couple of years ... but the postseason he showed signs of bringing some of that back.

[sk7326]

This is flat-out not true, as there is a point where there's no way the team will recoup its investment on the player given the $$$/years invested. Look at A-Rod's contract. Everybody and their mother knew right from the get-go that contract would end up in the red, even if Rodriguez played like in-his-prime A-Rod for most of the contract.

 

Teams have different revenue functions and different situations - it's one of the reasons baseball's model is more sustainable than the lockout-a-decade NHL. There is a point when the $$$ is flat-out too much indeed, but the team that places the bid knows what that level is for them. The ARod deal did not work out for Texas because ARod's contributed wins were not nearly enough to get into a needle moving area. In Boston, where the franchise was in 2001, the wins added and the playoff impact and the revenue benefits that come with it, a gigantic investment makes more sense. Indeed, when Boston signed Manny to that contract, this all came into play. The business decision the Sox have to make with a large investment is separate from what the other teams do ... so it is hard to argue that a posting fee of XX is good or bad, since it depends on the team that actually is ponying up the cash.

[Dojji]

Not just that, but those tag end last years can destroy a player's legacy with the team. Not just the A-Rods either, look at all the hate a guy with the status of a Curt Schilling got when he tried and failed to come back in 08. that should have never happened to a guy of the standing Curt Schilling had in this community, but it did, because fans knew the team was paying for him out of our ticket revenues and our support and he spent that last year giving the team nothing meaningful.

 

Now if you've got a guy who's still at least kinda getting it done in the field, that's one thing, but he'd better be giving you something, especially if the contract is a big one, or all heck breaks loose very quickly.

[Bellhorn04]

Not just that, but those tag end last years can destroy a player's legacy with the team. Not just the A-Rods either, look at all the hate a guy with the status of a Curt Schilling got when he tried and failed to come back in 08. that should have never happened to a guy of the standing Curt Schilling had in this community, but it did, because fans knew the team was paying for him out of our ticket revenues and our support and he spent that last year giving the team nothing meaningful.

 

Let's face it, there's a segment of Red Sox fans who are among the worst whiners of any fanbase in sports.

[User Name]

Let's face it, there's a segment of Red Sox fans who are among the worst whiners of any fanbase in sports.

 

A segment? You are too kind, fine sir. Too kind.