Will Red Sox pursue Japanese Ace - Masahiro Tanaka?

[mvp 78]

Where do you get those numbers? He's 14.5 for 2014 and has a player option for 2015 at 15.

[User Name]

For prospects and salary dump. I believe Peavy is due 17M in 2014 and as you say he is a number 2 (not sure I agree with that) and teams are looking for # 2's. Many ownerships are not willing to part with the posting fee for Tanaka. After the fee is paid the Sox will most likely be able to sign Tanaka for less than what either Dempster or Peavy will be earning next season. Do you realize that the Sox will be paying Peavy and Dempster around 30M next season for the pair. Tanaka is younger and better than either one and if the Sox do get to the post season next year I would rather have the upside of Tanaka then counting on either of the two.

 

Your numbers are wrong, and Tanaka isn't better than anyone right now, because he has not thrown a single MLB pitch.

[Palodios]

Where do you get those numbers? He's 14.5 for 2014 and has a player option for 2015 at 15.

 

He has to pitch 250 innings in 2014 for the option to vest.

[mvp 78]

He has to pitch 250 innings in 2014 for the option to vest.

 

Easy.

[marklmw]

Where do you get those numbers? He's 14.5 for 2014 and has a player option for 2015 at 15.

 

Who is he? From espn roster listing it has Peavy at 16M plus and Dempster at 14M ... either way they are both a little pricey for the 4th, 5th or 6th SP.

[marklmw]

He has to pitch 250 innings in 2014 for the option to vest.

 

Where did you find this information? who pitches 250 innings?

[Palodios]

Where did you find this information? who pitches 250 innings?

 

Cots is the widely accepted source of information around here for contract information. We're referring to Peavy.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/al-east/boston-red-sox/

[marklmw]

Cots is the widely accepted source of information around here for contract information. We're referring to Peavy.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/al-east/boston-red-sox/

 

Thanks ... I was wondering how accurate the numbers are at espn.

[marklmw]

You don't make moves based on what the Yankees do or don't do. That's bad business.

 

Would he make the Sox better? Potentially. But you don't address areas of depth and strength for a mild tick upgrade.

 

Doubront is a good pitcher. You have to swallow lumps with these guys and next year should be a breakout year for Doubront, after a very nice development season.

 

The fact is that there are teams who need Tanaka much more than the Sox, which will drive up the price well outside of the price the Sox would pay.

 

It just makes no sense when the Sox have substantial high end depth.

 

The Sox need to look at 1B, C, and RP. SP is not a need.

 

There will not be that many clubs after Tanaka due to the posting fee. Be happy that our ownership is smart with deep pockets. And yes you can do things based on what the Yankees do ... it has not been all that long ago since the Teixeira debacle or the signing of Damon? You do realize that the Red Sox traded away the greatest baseball player of all time to the Yankees ... the curse of the Bambino ... have you heard of that? Come on man!!!

We play the Yankees 19 games every season ... they are enemy number 1. We finally have an ownership team that can compete with the evil empire. Sit back and enjoy it.

[User Name]

Damon and Teixeira were the best available position players at positions of need for the Yanks in the offseason they were signed. And what does Babe Ruth have to do with anything here? That doesn't make any sense. Also, how do you know that teams won't pursue Tanaka? There are a bunch of teams with excess money and pitching needs this season. The Yankees, Cubs, Blue Jays, Dodgers, Mets, Red Sox, Seattle and the Giants could all be players for Tanaka. You are trying to convince yourself of a bunch of ideas that either haven't been proven, or are simply not true.

[mvp 78]

In retrospect, that Teixieracontract looks horrible. The Sox made the right decision on Damon as well.

[Bellhorn04]

In retrospect, that Teixieracontract looks horrible.

 

I'd say it looks bad. But horrible? I think you have to leave room for some of the other contracts that are potentially worse, or much worse - Pujols, Fielder, Howard.

[jung]

The question does not appear to be whether the Sox owners can compete with the Shanks owners. It appears to be can the Shanks ownership team compete with anybody having already screwed themselves royally. When your hopes and aspirations are riding on whether or not the league suspends one of your players such that his contract is nullified thus mitigating your thunderously idiotic decision, you know you are doing something wrong.

 

Now that cable TV money is flowing like wine to many teams, having money may no longer be enough. You may actually have to do something intelligent with it for once.

[a700hitter]

Both Damon and Texeira won a Championship with the Yanks. Did they overpay for them? Possibly for Tex. but Damon gave them their money's worth. Both were major contributors to their last World Championship. It's hard to give them wrong for getting those guys.

[marklmw]

Damon and Teixeira were the best available position players at positions of need for the Yanks in the offseason they were signed. And what does Babe Ruth have to do with anything here? That doesn't make any sense. Also, how do you know that teams won't pursue Tanaka? There are a bunch of teams with excess money and pitching needs this season. The Yankees, Cubs, Blue Jays, Dodgers, Mets, Red Sox, Seattle and the Giants could all be players for Tanaka. You are trying to convince yourself of a bunch of ideas that either haven't been proven, or are simply not true.

 

Whats going on with you UN? The Giants have been rumored to back out from the Tanaka Sweepstakes. You know my point about Tanaka ... rules have been changed where clubs are being forced to spend their revenue sharing proceeds in certain ways but none are forced to put up a posting fee to acquire an international star pitcher. You know very well that out of the 30 teams in MLB there are 10 haves and 20 have nots. There are also clubs who have very large nuts already ... like the Dodgers.

My point about the Red Sox making moves with the Yankees in mind is valid. I am sure that the Yankees do the same when they can and when it helps their club. You are treating Tanaka like a college arm, or a kid in AA. I do not get it ... have you read anything about him. We would not be discussing him right now if he was not legit. The scouts would have dismissed him by now. Dice K would have been a hell of a MLB player if he learned how to pitch to contact instead of walking hitters and running 3-2 counts on every other batter. Tanaka is said to have one of the more outstanding splitters ... when I hear that I think Koji and Mariano. Stop with the talk that he is not any good because he has yet to throw a pitch in the American League ... that is plain silly. That is similar to saying that Bryce Harper will not project to be a success or an Evan Longoria or an Xander Bogaerts for that matter.

[marklmw]

Both Damon and Texeira won a Championship with the Yanks. Did they overpay for them? Possibly for Tex. but Damon gave them their money's worth. Both were major contributors to their last World Championship. It's hard to give them wrong for getting those guys.

 

Thank you 700. It is all about the championships. In fact many here defend trading Hanley because we won a championship with Beckett and Lowell.

[Palodios]

And yet no one defends the dicek signing.

[Orange Juiced]

And yet no one defends the dicek signing.

 

When all was said and done, Dice-K turned out to be not very good. But the first two years, he was solid. Combined numbers:

 

61 g, 3.72 era, 126 era+, 1.32 whip, 8.6 k/9, top-4 rookie of the year in 2007, top-4 Cy Young award in 2008, winning pitcher in game 3 of the 2007 World Series

 

Did the Sox get their money's worth? Eh..probably not, but still, he helped us win a championship.

[a700hitter]

And yet no one defends the dicek signing.

LOL! That's true. Maybe the judgment of the Dice K signing shouldn't be so harsh in light of his contributions to the 2007 team. His contributions were not near the level of Beckett's that season, but Dice K was solid that season. His career trajectory in Boston would have been completely different if the Red Sox had prohibited him from playing in that. Stupid WBC. He was never the same pitcher afterward. I think that some of the negativity toward Dice K is due to his frustrating pitching style. Also, there is second guessing of the FO that year, because superior American pitchers were available as FAs that year.

[Dojji]

Daisuke started going bad in August of 2007. Prior to August he was a bona fide ace. Something wore him down in his first year here and he never fully recovered even after surgery and rehab and everything the pitching coaches could do.

[marklmw]

LOL! That's true. Maybe the judgment of the Dice K signing shouldn't be so harsh in light of his contributions to the 2007 team. His contributions were not near the level of Beckett's that season, but Dice K was solid that season. His career trajectory in Boston would have been completely different if the Red Sox had prohibited him from playing in that. Stupid WBC. He was never the same pitcher afterward. I think that some of the negativity toward Dice K is due to his frustrating pitching style. Also, there is second guessing of the FO that year, because superior American pitchers were available as FAs that year.

 

I wonder what conditions are put into today's contract ... no dirt bike riding, no snowmobiling, no skiing, no sky diving, no motor cycle racing and no pitching in WBC

[User Name]

Whats going on with you UN? The Giants have been rumored to back out from the Tanaka Sweepstakes. You know my point about Tanaka ... rules have been changed where clubs are being forced to spend their revenue sharing proceeds in certain ways but none are forced to put up a posting fee to acquire an international star pitcher. You know very well that out of the 30 teams in MLB there are 10 haves and 20 have nots. There are also clubs who have very large nuts already ... like the Dodgers.

My point about the Red Sox making moves with the Yankees in mind is valid. I am sure that the Yankees do the same when they can and when it helps their club. You are treating Tanaka like a college arm, or a kid in AA. I do not get it ... have you read anything about him. We would not be discussing him right now if he was not legit. The scouts would have dismissed him by now. Dice K would have been a hell of a MLB player if he learned how to pitch to contact instead of walking hitters and running 3-2 counts on every other batter. Tanaka is said to have one of the more outstanding splitters ... when I hear that I think Koji and Mariano. Stop with the talk that he is not any good because he has yet to throw a pitch in the American League ... that is plain silly. That is similar to saying that Bryce Harper will not project to be a success or an Evan Longoria or an Xander Bogaerts for that matter.

 

There's nothing going on with me. I'm just saying you're being illogical about the whole thing. You're making apples to oranges comparison (MiLB comparisons don't apply, because NPB baseball is different....different ball, different pitch counts, mounds and rest days). You're making guarantees you can't make (he'll help the team in the short and long term). You're discounting other teams' interest even though it's contrary to initial reports (where does it say the Giants won't bid?). And you're way undervaluing the posting fee (that money has to come from somewhere).

 

We get it, you like Tanaka, but let's stick to facts and projections here, let's not make stuff up.

[marklmw]

There's nothing going on with me. I'm just saying you're being illogical about the whole thing. You're making apples to oranges comparison (MiLB comparisons don't apply, because NPB baseball is different....different ball, different pitch counts, mounds and rest days). You're making guarantees you can't make (he'll help the team in the short and long term). You're discounting other teams' interest even though it's contrary to initial reports (where does it say the Giants won't bid?). And you're way undervaluing the posting fee (that money has to come from somewhere).

 

We get it, you like Tanaka, but let's stick to facts and projections here, let's not make stuff up.

 

If I say that I read somewhere that the Giants are backing out of the Tanaka sweepstakes then I read it somewhere ... I am not making it up ... anyway it does not mean a dam thing. Someone reports that the Giants are no longer looking at Tanaka is meaningless. What is meaningful are the reports that claim that Boston ownership is interested. Some fans are concerned about the posting fee and I tell them not to be. I know a little about business but not as much as John Henry and his tax advisers ... to be sure he has some really good ones that he pays $1,000 per hour. You do not buy a newspaper today if you are not looking for a corporate tax deduction. I would question that purchase way before I would question a 60M one time tax deductible posting fee.

[User Name]

Of course the Sox are interested. They are exploring every possible avenue to make this team better, as they should. That doesn't mean we should exaggerate the team's possibilities of acquiring him, or his potential on-field impact.

 

As for the posting fee, is it really tax deductible? (This is a legitimate question, i have no idea how that would work)

[Bellhorn04]

If I say that I read somewhere that the Giants are backing out of the Tanaka sweepstakes then I read it somewhere ... I am not making it up ... anyway it does not mean a dam thing. Someone reports that the Giants are no longer looking at Tanaka is meaningless. What is meaningful are the reports that claim that Boston ownership is interested. Some fans are concerned about the posting fee and I tell them not to be. I know a little about business but not as much as John Henry and his tax advisers ... to be sure he has some really good ones that he pays $1,000 per hour. You do not buy a newspaper today if you are not looking for a corporate tax deduction. I would question that purchase way before I would question a 60M one time tax deductible posting fee.

 

From the team's point of view, the only difference between a posting fee and salary is that the posting fee doesn't count toward payroll for luxury tax purposes. So it's potentially less expensive by the amount of the luxury tax that would apply. But otherwise it's the same as paying salary of that amount.

[marklmw]

Of course the Sox are interested. They are exploring every possible avenue to make this team better, as they should. That doesn't mean we should exaggerate the team's possibilities of acquiring him, or his potential on-field impact.

 

As for the posting fee, is it really tax deductible? (This is a legitimate question, i have no idea how that would work)

 

yes it is tax deductible like any other expense to operations.

[marklmw]

From the team's point of view, the only difference between a posting fee and salary is that the posting fee doesn't count toward payroll for luxury tax purposes. So it's potentially less expensive by the amount of the luxury tax that would apply. But otherwise it's the same as paying salary of that amount.

 

I would not be surprised if all of ownerships entities are controlled by a holding company. Decisions like a posting fee for Tanaka might be decided by the tax attorney's based on how well Liverpool did or NESN or their NASCAR team. It gives them tremendous flexibility. Same goes in the opposite direction ... how the Sox did in 2013 might determine what they do in their NASCAR operation. This is why I am telling all you folks to stop being concerned about the posting fee. They might actually need the posting fee to offset some other profits. The Sox ownership enjoys winning and they enjoy riding on the duck boats waving at their adoring fans.

[mvp 78]

John Henry probably couldn't give two shits about the tax implications of paying Tanaka. He's owning the team as an investment so that when he sells in 10 years, he'll triple the money he put in.

[BSN07]

Tanaka is not Darvish and will cost more, no thanks. 92 MPH FB and a great splitter. Sounds like a nice RP, not 100M+ SP. I think everyone is getting caught up in his video game numbers this season.

[sk7326]

Tanaka is not Darvish and will cost more, no thanks. 92 MPH FB and a great splitter. Sounds like a nice RP, not 100M+ SP. I think everyone is getting caught up in his video game numbers this season.

 

The age is the fascinating part of this. He is 25, that is the big plus here, and there is a decent chance he could end up a solid #2. It would be a large investment for that - but that would be a good guy to have. I agree you can't expect him to be a staff anchor. But as we saw this year, a rotation of #2/#3 starters is plenty to win the title.