Mike Napoli performance thread.

[Dojji]

Look, let's not play this Nomar kid. We already have Valentin at SS, Frye at 2b and Naehring at 3b. We don't need him!

 

I'm not saying absolutely don't play Bogaerts. I'm saying don't write him in as the starting shortstop in pen in the offseason. Nomar beat Valentin to become our starting SS. That competition was had. Valentin had to be beat and beat he was, but the team made sure that the rookie earned his job, which is the way you do it. This team knows that as well as anyone, it's how they developed Youk, Pedey, Ellsbury, and all of their pitchers. MAKE them earn their time, and then LET them earn their time. It's the winning combination.

 

I'm saying do the exact same thing that this team did with all of Nomar, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, etc, etc, etc, and make it a competition. If Bogaerts is as ready as Nomar was, the competition will be over fairly quickly and we'll have one heck of a talented infield (if somewhat overpaid). If not, you'll be glad we had a Plan B. but make the rookie earn his job.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Dojji

[rjortiz]

You do know that the Red Sox kept their former starting shortstop on the team for years after Nomar was made the starter right? They had a use for him and no reason to move him so stay he did. John Valentin was with the team all the way up into the early 2000's

 

Valentin played everyday at 2nd and 3rd the next two years after Nomar's debut. His 2000 and 2001 seasons were complete wastes. He was pretty highly paid for a late 90's player, but he could be moved around. Drew has never played another position other than SS, and he's blocked by Pedroia and Middlebrooks on both sides. The other players have to move if Drew sticks around, which did not happen with Valentin. There isn't an equivalence here.

 

If you want to argue that Bogaerts should move to 3B, and Middlebrooks to 1B that's a different argument.

[rjortiz]

I'm not saying absolutely don't play Bogaerts. I'm saying don't write him in as the starting shortstop in pen in the offseason. Nomar beat Valentin to become our starting SS. That competition was had. Valentin had to be beat and beat he was, but the team made sure that the rookie earned his job, which is the way you do it. This team knows that as well as anyone, it's how they developed Youk, Pedey, Ellsbury, and all of their pitchers. MAKE them earn their time, and then LET them earn their time. It's the winning combination.

 

I'm saying do the exact same thing that this team did with all of Nomar, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, etc, etc, etc, and make it a competition. If Bogaerts is as ready as Nomar was, the competition will be over fairly quickly and we'll have one heck of a talented infield (if somewhat overpaid). If not, you'll be glad we had a Plan B. but make the rookie earn his job.

 

I already mentioned the differences in the Nomar situation, but the other ones aren't similar either. Ellsbury covered all three OF positions due to injury. There's also more AB's to give around in the OF, when a player is flexible to play all three. Pedroia played everyday down the 2006 stretch, but he was handed the job in 2007. His only real competition was Alex Cora, who didn't make near the money Drew would. Maybe if they signed Loretta there would be a legitimate comparison. Youkilis started out as a 1B, and I think his competition was J.T. Snow, another low cost veteran. As for Lester and Papelbon, there are more spots on a pitching staff, so I think they are different from competition from positional players.

 

If you want to bring in veteran competition, I'm all for that. I just don't think we should pay that person $14 million.

[User Name]

Dojji, your argument comparing the Drew/Bogaerts situation to the Nomar/Ellsbury/Pedroia situation is a logical fallacy.

 

Bogaerts should be handed a starting job at either SS or 3B (and he will) with some veteran backup in case he falters. The only way Drew stays is if he's going to be the starting SS come 2014. He makes too much money and has no positional flexibility to be a backup or to be part of a "competition". That's the kind of situation that constitutes both a waste of resources and shits on team chemistry. Stop with the nonsensical ramblings.

[sk7326]

You do know that the Red Sox kept their former starting shortstop on the team for years after Nomar was made the starter right? They had a use for him and no reason to move him so stay he did. John Valentin was with the team all the way up into the early 2000's

 

They did not keep Valentin as a hedge against Nomar though - they kept him because he was their 2nd best infielder at that time. Drew still has a year or two of prime earning as a SS ... he's probably a better defensive SS than Bogaerts is ... he'd want to play and be fully justified in doing so. Now if you want to move Boegarts to 3B and Middlebrooks to 1B, that is a more reasonable discussion - but one I'd still not be inclined to do.

 

The thing is - the track records of dudes who do what Bogaerts has done, continually conquer levels of baseball where he is hanging against older guys, is VERY STRONG. These guys almost never fail - the argument is whether Bogaerts will be a mid .700 OPS sort or a mid .800 OPS sort. As we've seen this season - the Red Sox can survive with some "let's figure it out during the season" in a position or two - and if you are going to bet on a kid figuring things out on the fly he has a good track record there.

[Orange Juiced]

It's one think keeping a veteran like Valentin. It's another signing a guy like Drew who would otherwise be a free agent, and then just have him kicking around in case Bogaerts falters.

 

Of course, what will chap everyone's hide is if they let Drew go and then Bogaerts suffers a serious injury (which would suck all by itself) and then we don't have Drew OR Bogaerts playing SS.

[User Name]

They can sign a veteran guy as insurance, and you don't pay 14 mill to a guy "in case" someone gets injured. On a side note, i'm all for re-signing Drew and moving XB to 3rd and WMB to 1st if they can't re-sign Napoli on their terms.

[dupree]

I could see Drew coming back. And if Bogaerts wins the job from him, then Drew would be a nice trade chip at the deadline.

 

As far as moving WMB to 1B, id leave him at 3B. Go after the Cudan 1B and if they lose out on him resign Napoli and platoon him with Carp or Nava.

[User Name]

Signing Drew to "compete" with XB is a massive waste of resources. You're never certain you can unload these veterans at the TDL or how that can affect team chemistry.

 

The Sox should go with a clear plan that involves as much certainty as possible imo.

[dupree]

I agree with you in having a clear cut plan. What i dont agree with is letting Drew walk. A QO may be an overpay but i like the idea of Bogaerts being a utility infielder and giving people regular days off. Plus without Drew the team looks a lil too righthanded. An injury to XB far a long period and having to go out and get another SS would be going backwards. Just let the FO sign Drew and let XB take it away from him and then have a team with a lot of infield depth if anyone goes down. Id rather have too much depth anyday, injuries do happen and a strong infield is a big priority.

[Palodios]

Signing Drew to "compete" with XB is a massive waste of resources. You're never certain you can unload these veterans at the TDL or how that can affect team chemistry.

 

The Sox should go with a clear plan that involves as much certainty as possible imo.

 

XB is still only 20 years old. We need to see how he does in the postseason, but it might be worthwhile to let him marinate in the minors in 2014 and push his arbitration clock back a year. If Middlebrooks is ineffective, Drew/Pedroia gets hurt, or if their 1B plan doesn't pan out, they will have a very good depth option.

 

I am also not convinced that Drew is going to want to be a backup plan in 2014, even if it is a 14 million check in his pocket. Boras will probably see this offseason as the last chance for Drew to hit it big. He'll be 31 next March, and if he loses playing time to injury or being bumped out of the lineup, he probably won't ever see a multi-year deal again, nevermind an 8 figure deal again.

 

The reason why this year worked was because BC made smart, flexible deals that built depth. If Drew takes the QO it will be exactly that.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Palodios

[wyo-sox]

The Drew situation reminds me a bit of the Beltre situation. I could see us regretting not having him on the roster, and I could see him hurting us playing for the Yankees. I'm not sure they will put a lot of faith in Jeter being their everyday ss next year.

 

Would we have to over pay for Drew a bit, probably. But I would guess an infield of...

 

Middlebrooks 1b

Pedroia 2b

Drew ss

XBogs 3b

 

......would in total be a pretty reasonably priced infield.

[User Name]

...and you'd also have a fantastic depth at all IF positions, with WMB and XB being able to play multiple positions, and Carp being a solid 1B backup.

[dupree]

...and you'd also have a fantastic depth at all IF positions, with WMB and XB being able to play multiple positions, and Carp being a solid 1B backup.

Ok... if the money is not used on Drew where do you use it?

[a700hitter]

Ok... if the money is not used on Drew where do you use it?

OF to replace Ellsbury.

[User Name]

Ok... if the money is not used on Drew where do you use it?

 

In the post you quoted, i'm talking about a WMB-Pedroia-Drew-Bogaerts infield.

 

But if i don't bring back Drew, i bring back Napoli or try to upgrade 1B while swapping out Ellsbury for Choo.

[dupree]

OF to replace Ellsbury.

Resign Ells instead of Replace him.

[User Name]

Ellsbury's getting a big payday somewhere. Let someone else overpay for his skillset.

[Bellhorn04]

Napoli is on fire lately. If he stays reasonably hot the rest of the season and in the postseason, a lot of people will want him back.

[dupree]

In the post you quoted, i'm talking about a WMB-Pedroia-Drew-Bogaerts infield.

 

But if i don't bring back Drew, i bring back Napoli or try to upgrade 1B while swapping out Ellsbury for Choo.

I like the idea of bringing Napoli back. But im not as big of fan of Choo. Rather have a platoon of Bradley/Nava/Gomes in LF than spending the money on Choo. With the team resigning Ells to man CF. And Vic in RF.

[a700hitter]

Napoli is on fire lately. If he stays reasonably hot the rest of the season and in the postseason, a lot of people will want him back.

That's the way it works with the fans, but not with the suits in the FO.

[Bellhorn04]

That's the way it works with the fans, but not with the suits in the FO.

 

That is true. Another interesting offseason coming up.

[User Name]

I like the idea of bringing Napoli back. But im not as big of fan of Choo. Rather have a platoon of Bradley/Nava/Gomes in LF than spending the money on Choo. With the team resigning Ells to man CF. And Vic in RF.

 

Don't share the enthusiasm for bringing Ellsbury back at all. He can't get through a season in one piece.

[Bellhorn04]

For better or worse, Ellsbury walking is a no-brainer.

[Dojji]

If you don't want to sign Drew, then go after Peralta. What you absolutely do not do is turn a rookie loose at shortstop without a valid Plan B. That's not how you develop a prospect.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Bogaerts and Bradley should both be given ample opportunities to claim SS and CF next season, but competent backup plans should be signed just in case, I agree with Dojji there.

[sk7326]

If you don't want to sign Drew, then go after Peralta. What you absolutely do not do is turn a rookie loose at shortstop without a valid Plan B. That's not how you develop a prospect.

 

Well ... Orioles did it with Machado more or less. A lot of it has to do with a FOs evaluation of the guy. What is Bogaerts' worst outcome for 2014 barring injury? That he becomes a drooling vegetable or that he curls up in the fetal position on the diamond when he hits an 0 for 17? If that's the case - then yeah you have to look into contingencies. If it's just a matter of enduring some .240/.300/.370 while he works at it - that is a different deal. I can live with the latter. The one thing you need for prospects to develop is reps ... either at AAA or the Show. If you choose the latter, key is the organization being strong and not letting the various Whiner Line contributors force their thinking.

 

Veteran help is never a bad thing - certainly not doubting that. Though both Bogaerts and Bradley have shown legitimate reasons to be optimistic about their prospects for next season.

[Dojji]

Victorino can serve that job for Bradley, we're well set up for Ellsbury's departure really, even if I'd definitely rather not see him go.

 

If all we have at short is Bogaerts and a utility man, we're inviting trouble. I don't think he'll implode like Middlebrooks did this year, but if you don't plan as if it might happen, you're inviting a world of hurt down on your head if it does.

 

I actually suspect that if we let Drew go he'll wind up playing for the Yankees. A-Rod is too old to move back to SS and Jeter is probably retiring either this offseason or next, and in either case, the Yankees can't count on him to take the field at any given time. In other words, they need a shortstop.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Dojji

[Orange Juiced]

If you don't want to sign Drew, then go after Peralta. What you absolutely do not do is turn a rookie loose at shortstop without a valid Plan B. That's not how you develop a prospect.

 

According to Cot's, here is the list of potential free agent SS after this season:

 

Alfredo Amezaga

Clint Barmes

Willie Bloomquist

Jamey Carroll *

Alexi Casilla *

Stephen Drew

Yunel Escobar *

Rafael Furcal

Alex Gonzalez

Cesar Izturis

Derek Jeter *

John McDonald

Jhonny Peralta

Brendan Ryan

 

*Contract contains an option for 2014.

 

I don't know that Peralta would sign to be a backup. Someone will likely want him as a starter. You'd need someone like Jamey Carroll most likely.

[mvp 78]

If you don't want to sign Drew, then go after Peralta. What you absolutely do not do is turn a rookie loose at shortstop without a valid Plan B. That's not how you develop a prospect.

 

Veteran backup middle infielders grow on trees. I don't know why you would fret about picking one up on the cheap.